Intel's Napa Platform with Yonah

[SiliconAddict]

You're correct! I was reading this from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_M#Yonah_.26_Sossaman

My appoligies sir, you are correct when talking about FP calculations. I was thinking of Integer calculations.

On a side note, I think it will be interresting seeing Steve Jobs tout the Intel x86 architecture. He will only be able to poke fun at Microsoft's operating systems from now on, not the hardware architecture. When he talks about hardware innovation, it will apply to the windows world as well for the most part, which is an interresting twist.

Now that being said...this was using a desktop chipset in the Yonah tests. Not sure if that could have aided things a bit. In any event we will find out soon enough.

 

[Randall]

And the 17" Powerbook is "truly portable" ??? I tried to talk a friend out of buying one - "John, it's just too big". He got it anyway, and then two months later also bought a 12" PB because the 17" was just too big to haul around. My grandmother would have said that he had "more money than sense".

"Portable" means many things. To some people, it means very lightweight, fits on the economy class tray table when the seat in front is reclined, and is small enough for an elegant briefcase. (Apple has nothing for these people - it "has to have a DVD drive and ports for...".)

To other people, "portable" means that it can be put in a case and shipped with the other stage equipment (or video gear, or 12 MPixel cameras), and setup on a work bench for on-location editing, sound boarding or shooting. No concern about weight or power (except that the more power the better).

Apple's painted itself into such a corner with the "it's got to be thin" mantra that they're ignoring a sizable market with a large (often expense account) budget.

"Desktop replacement dual-core portable" is not a bad thing, Steve.

This is an excellent point. THe 17" Powerbook is probably more awkward to lug around the the alienware "desklap". I agree with you there. I wouldn't mind a thicker laptop, so long as I can comfortably rest it on my lap without burning myself, which Yonah will help with a little bit by consuming less power.

If you ask me, the 15" Powerbook model is the perfect combination of power and portibility, I find the screen on the 12" PB to be too small for my liking, as well as some features missing that are present in the 2 larger models.

 

[SiliconAddict]

And the 17" Powerbook is "truly portable" ??? I tried to talk a friend out of buying one - "John, it's just too big". He got it anyway, and then two months later also bought a 12" PB because the 17" was just too big to haul around. My grandmother would have said that he had "more money than sense".

I'm in the same boat. Can't really decide what I want. On one hand 17" is droolable. On the other hand a 15” is way more portable. No worries though. I still have a month to make a decision.

 

[Randall]

I'm in the same boat. Can't really decide what I want. On one hand 17" is droolable. On the other hand a 15” is way more portable. No worries though. I still have a month to make a decision.

Yeah that is my only tough choice as well. If the 15" and 17" continue to both have all of the same features like they currently do, then it's simply screen real estate versus portability that we're talking about. In that case, for me I would most likely choose portibility. Especially given the fact that the screen resolutions have been recently improved, so you are getting the older 17" resolution in the newer 15" models.

If they only stuff the top-end processor in the 17" model though, then it's an entirely different ballgame.

 

[fluidinclusion]

Actually

Actually no...

PBG4 Ti released Jan 2001 so lets take that:

2001-2002 = 1 year

2002-2003 = 2 years

2003 - 2004 = 3 years

2004 - 2005 = 4 years

If the PB hold the G4 chip till the end of 2006 then we can say its been 5 years.

And Jan 2005 - Jan 2006 is the 5th year. Jeez.

 

[strange days]

Read the quote again....

Much like the DivX test, we see that although Yonah has come a long way from Dothan, it is still not competitive with the likes of the Athlon 64 X2. It is a shame, as we were hoping for more out of Intel's FP/SSE enhancements.

Here is the same benchmarks run on Dothan chips

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2129&p=9

...and if you're not willing to click around, preview tests of the Yonah 2Ghz against Dothan 2Ghz in Divx encoding performance give :

Yonah - 57 frames per second
Dothan - 39.6 frames per second

Way to go !=)

 

[Randall]

...and if you're not willing to click around, preview tests of the Yonah 2Ghz against Dothan 2Ghz in Divx encoding performance give :

Yonah - 57 frames per second
Dothan - 39.6 frames per second

Way to go !=)

Is that with 2-pass? lol

A better test would have been x264 main profile encoding. Of course that probably would have yielded something like 8 fps versus 6 fps or something laughable.

 

[dollystereo]

They will not sport Yonah in Ibook, the will put something cheaper, like Pentium M, or Celeron M, that anyway, would outperform the current 133mhz fsb G4

 

[DeepIn2U]

And I suppose that you believed Apple's claim that the Powermac G5 was the first desktop 64-bit computer, and their claim that the PMG4 was a supercomputer, and those ridiculous GFLOPS claims for every PM ???

Well if it was good enough for the United States Government to prevent the very first Apple PowerMac G4 (even the shoddy watered down 50Mhz in all 3 iterations from what was promised) to be shippable to teh Japanese governement because they believed (and even arstechnica) that its cpu could be used in a long ranch nuclear guided missile (may be slightly off on type of missile here); then its good enough for Apple to advertise it in the famous commercial. (I do remember that the news press announced this about a month before the commercial aired).

The DTK (Developer Transition Kit) Intel systems are 64-bit capable, which Apple is running in the 32-bit mode.

Apple could be "moving people to today", but they're choosing "yesterday"....

Maybe a protest at MWSF is in order - when Jobs says "One more thing", the audience should stand and start chanting

W H A T A B O U T 6 4 - B I T ???

Although I'd love to see such an uproar to prod the depest stages of inner planning of Apple from Steve on live presentation ... I doubt he'd concede. BTW, I thought the DTK systems for $999 was actually shipping only a 32-bit cored cpu, NOT a 64-bit capable cpu?! Not sure if its clear anywhere on Apples site?!!

EDIT: However I can imagine how many more developers will code for x86-32bit OS X transition with a shiny new Intel Mac OS X laptop to go portable with.

I just hope to see some reasonable used price offerings from individuals for 2nd revisions of PowerBook G4's @ 12" around the $800-1100 Canadian dollar price range (given the current .85-87 cents to US$ conversion rate). Sure those selling want to fund their new machine purchase, but lets be fair and offer a new switcher something nice and a reasonable price ... they could one day program and making the platform more enjoyable. (yeah right in my dreams)

 

[Ensoniq]

AltiVec & Rosetta

From osx86project.org, posted 11/21/2005:

http://www.osx86project.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=68&Itemid=2

"First, the Rosetta emulation platform in 10.4.3 build 8F1111A has been upgraded to feature full G4 support, including Altivec. This not only adds a new layer of compatibility to Rosetta, but also improved speed for Altivec-equipped applications. This upgrade is reportedly available as a small downloadable update to build 8F1111."

If this is true (no reason to doubt it's not, considering the source is not a rumor site), then all the worries of AltiVec-enhanced applications "sucking" under Rosetta is no longer an issue. Even under emulation, the increased bus speed and processing power of a dual-core Yonah over a single-core G4 should provide more than enough horsepower for older PPC applications during the transition period.

Developers who have their acts together will NOT be relying on Rosetta as a true "solution" anyway...they will do as Apple has asked and update their apps to Universal Binary format. Any major developer who hasn't got Intel-ready builds already working in their labs doesn't have a right to call themselves an Apple developer at all. I'm not talking about projects ready to ship...but they should at least compile and run on Intel right now, today.

So this whole theory that "Apple can't put Intels in PowerBooks because developers need time to upgrade the pro apps" is nonsense. Current G4-compiled pro apps should work quite well under the AltiVec compatible Rosetta update, with Universal Binary updates as needed for those apps that would see significant performance enhancements under a true Intel compile.

I also discount the theory of any chip less than a Yonah making it into any Intel-based Mac. The iBook and PowerBook today use exactly the same processor. Only minor MHz differences separate the two competing notebook lines...with screen size, resolution, video chip, Firewire 800, and PCMCIA slots being other distinguishing features.

Apple could release new iBooks and PowerBooks on the same exact day, BOTH having dual-core Yonah processors, and use the same slight MHz differences and the other hardware distinctions above to keep the lines separate. There is NO need for Apple to intentionally cripple the iBook with a non-Yonah processor. If anything, having Apple's entire notebook line-up going dual-core at the same time is a major publicity win for Apple.

 

[aegisdesign]

Reality

Before people get carried away with dual core 2Ghz iBooks, a dose of reality.

Here's the Yonah pricing...

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26062

The top end Yonah is almost ten times the price of a G4. A Yonah as fast as the current G4 is 2-3 times as expensive.

Note they also mention a Celeron M 1.7Ghz coming in January. There's your iBook CPU.

 

[yoak]

I second that, how else can people on MR keep up tradition with complaining about how much this update suck when something is announced

 

[sintaxi]

it wont all be yonah

PBs will be Yonah, iBooks will be something cheaper with widescreen. that way both will sell. thats the whole point of having both lines. thats the way it has always been. one one hand you have beutiful and powerful, on the other, beutiful and afordable.

All G4s will be replaced in jan no question about it.

 

[dekator]

Everything is pointing to WWDC I can't wait hopes its the iBooks.

Not so sure. What makes you think Apple machines with the specified interior will be ready in less than a month ??? ('Cause that's what you seem to say, if I read your 'english' correctly).

 

[NewbieNerd]

I mean, just look at the girth on this thing. The side of it should say HOT!! like the McDonalds coffee cups do, so that you don't burn your crotch.

Yeah, but sneak it into a movie theatre Kramer-style, scald yourself, and you might be looking at a settlement involving a lifetime supply of laptops.

 

[840quadra]

Well if it was good enough for the United States Government to prevent the very first Apple PowerMac G4 (even the shoddy watered down 50Mhz in all 3 iterations from what was promised) to be shippable to teh Japanese governement because they believed (and even arstechnica) that its cpu could be used in a long ranch nuclear guided missile (may be slightly off on type of missile here); then its good enough for Apple to advertise it in the famous commercial. (I do remember that the news press announced this about a month before the commercial aired).

First off arstechnica was not at the same caliber then, as it is now. While it was a "Super Computer" in the US (at the time slow to react to technology changes) government's eye, it was no to the rest of the computing world. Apple was (truthfully and legally) able to use this as a marketing gimic, along with a few other "firsts", because of a gap or delay in updating classifications.

I also believe the trade embargo for items of that classification was more against sections of the Middle East, Cuba, and North Korea, at least those are and were countries we are at conflict with. I don't believe Japan was on that list in 1999 (however I could be wrong). I don't believe that the Government ever had any genuine concern with exporting the PM G4, it was only an issue because of a dated speed limit for processing power, as opposed to them worrying about this apple product.

I agree that these were fast computers, and I still love (and collect them), but that doesn't mean I agree with how they were marketed.

Sorry Macrumors for going onto the political tangent with this post.

 

[gnasher729]

From osx86project.org, posted 11/21/2005:

http://www.osx86project.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=68&Itemid=2

"First, the Rosetta emulation platform in 10.4.3 build 8F1111A has been upgraded to feature full G4 support, including Altivec. This not only adds a new layer of compatibility to Rosetta, but also improved speed for Altivec-equipped applications. This upgrade is reportedly available as a small downloadable update to build 8F1111."

If this is true (no reason to doubt it's not, considering the source is not a rumor site), then all the worries of AltiVec-enhanced applications "sucking" under Rosetta is no longer an issue.

No, it is not a rumor site, it is a site that is all about breaking NDAs and making illegal copies of software. In other words, a site run by criminals, and to me that sends their credibility level straight down to zero.

The other problem is of course that you don't understand at all what the consequences of adding Altivec emulation actually are. It may enable applications to run that refuse to run on a G3, but it may make applications that have both G3 and G4 code paths run slower, possibly a lot slower.

 

[gnasher729]

The top end Yonah is almost ten times the price of a G4. A Yonah as fast as the current G4 is 2-3 times as expensive.

That is very misleading. There is a single core Yonah which costs $205 instead of $241 for double core at same speed; using that chip would just be stupid. Intel has chips that (just about) match the G4 at similar price, but not the Yonahs. The cheapest useful Yonah is more than twice as fast as any G4 at slightly more than three times the price. The "almost ten times the price" is for the 2.16GHz part which is 200 dollars more than the 2.00GHz.

The reason that the G4 is so cheap is that Freescale doesn't build any high-performance chips! That's why there is no significant difference in speed between iBook and Powerbook: Because Freescale just doesn't have a chip that is faster, no matter how much you are willing to pay! Apple would have gladly paid three times the price for a G4 that runs at twice the speed (with power consumption suitable for a Powerbook), but there is no such chip from Freescale.

 

[avus]

Well if it was good enough for the United States Government to prevent the very first Apple PowerMac G4 (even the shoddy watered down 50Mhz in all 3 iterations from what was promised) to be shippable to teh Japanese governement because they believed (and even arstechnica) that its cpu could be used in a long ranch nuclear guided missile (may be slightly off on type of missile here); then its good enough for Apple to advertise it in the famous commercial. (I do remember that the news press announced this about a month before the commercial aired).

I don't believe Japan was on that list in 1999 (however I could be wrong).

....

Sorry Macrumors for going onto the political tangent with this post.

Didn't you two know that Japan's Earth Simulator had been the world's fastest supercomputer for so long until the end of last year?

And it is for a peaceful purpose.

And no, the Japanese goverment didn't need any freaking help from anybody to build it.

I am really dismayed and appalled by both of you

 

[GregA]

Freescale just doesn't have a chip that is faster, no matter how much you are willing to pay! Apple would have gladly paid three times the price for a G4 that runs at twice the speed (with power consumption suitable for a Powerbook), but there is no such chip from Freescale.

I suspect we'll never see it in a Mac - but what's the status on the dual core G4 chip Freescale released recently? Is it cheap? Any good?

 

[ZorPrime]

It will be interesting...

On a side note, I think it will be interresting seeing Steve Jobs tout the Intel x86 architecture. He will only be able to poke fun at Microsoft's operating systems from now on, not the hardware architecture. When he talks about hardware innovation, it will apply to the windows world as well for the most part, which is an interresting twist.

I think you have a really keen point. That’s one reason why I decided not to wait around for the first batch of intel PowerBooks, even though they’ll have better specs than what’s around now. I’ve always liked Apples because they are “different” from the typical PC, from Operating System to CPU. That will no longer be the case, at least in terms of CPU and other innards.

I know it’s not logical but I simply don’t like the idea of my Mac being “just like everyone else's Windows PC” on the inside. It’s like spending a wallop of $$ on a BMW, only to find yourself tied with a Toyota while accelerating on an onramp because both have the same A-frame, transmission, and engine block. [Edit] Both cars being made the same year [Edit]

I’m going to wait out the intel transition until Apple starts developing its own custom/kick-rear chips with intel, that will only be used on Macs. Once that happens, then Steve will once again claim his Macs truly do have guts better than the other players and therefore worth giving him those wild profit margins. I’m going to wait until Rev-C before getting my next PB.

Customized Mac-Specific CPUs will totally kick bottom and Mac will have unique guts again.

https://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/11/20051122092351.shtml

 

[840quadra]

Didn't you two know that Japan's Earth Simulator had been the world's fastest supercomputer for so long until the end of last year?

And it is for a peaceful purpose.

And no, the Japanese goverment didn't need any freaking help from anybody to build it.

I am really dismayed and appalled by both of you

Thanks sir (madam?)

I am aware of the earth simulator, and it's peaceful purpose, and the fact that Japan needs no Technology help from anyone. I was typing in regards to nations that have trade embargoes with the United States, while also stating that Japan is not on that list of terrorist nations. I (like yourself) am questioning why Japan was mentioned in the other persons post.

Sorry for not being clear, but were exactly did I say Japan needed our help, or that they were a terrorist threat?

 

[alfismoney]

And Jan 2005 - Jan 2006 is the 5th year. Jeez.

Actually, when I opened up the cast on my 667 (rev b, which I purchased refurbished), the parts were marked by hand in pen as having been assembled in December 2000. I don't know about you, but that makes it seem like Apple completed design on the original 400/500 tibooks closer to six years ago.

 

[ZorPrime]

I suspect we'll never see it in a Mac - but what's the status on the dual core G4 chip Freescale released recently? Is it cheap? Any good?

I heard it's destined for the imbedded market. I'm not sure but I also read somewhere that it's sampling and won't be in mass production for a while. The 7448 started mass production a month or so ago.

the MPC8641D would have really been nice to see with its 667MHz bus.

3rd Paragraph http://www.electronics.ca/reports/semiconductor_applications/network_applications.html

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1142
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?code=DRPPCDUALCORE

 

[AidenShaw]

Well if it was good enough for the United States Government to prevent the very first Apple PowerMac G4 (even the shoddy watered down 50Mhz in all 3 iterations from what was promised) to be shippable to teh Japanese governement because they believed (and even arstechnica) that its cpu could be used in a long ranch nuclear guided missile (may be slightly off on type of missile here); then its good enough for Apple to advertise it in the famous commercial.

Yes, and under the same rules the Sony Playstation 2 was also embargoed from certain countries! (http://news.com.com/Life+imitates+art+for+Apple/2100-1001_3-259224.html)

The US govt "supercomputer" definitions are antiquated, and the MTOPS ratings used in them have nothing to do with actual system performance. (The "T" means "Theoretical".)

But, good ads for the people who don't understand how little they matter! "Being a supercomputer" and "meeting the US govt definition of a supercomputer" are two very different things.

BTW, I thought the DTK systems for $999 was actually shipping only a 32-bit cored cpu, NOT a 64-bit capable cpu?! Not sure if its clear anywhere on Apples site?!!

Like Apple would post a note saying that "we're running this 64-bit system in 32-bit mode" ???

http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/06/09/intel.mac.performance/

"Apple's Developer Transition Kit features a Pentium 4 660 processor running at 3.6 GHz, according to various online reports."

"The test machines support 64 bit extensions, but Apple's software does not yet support that technology. The developer units include FireWire 400 and USB 2. USB 2 booting is supported, but FireWire booting is not. "

Every current Intel desktop and server chip, including the Celerons, are 64-bit. Only Dothan (and Yonah) are 32-bit, and soon Merom will make it 64-bit across the line.

(Of course, Intel is still selling some older technology 32-bit chips for long-term contracts and such... All new manufacturing lines, except for Yonah, are 64-bit.)