International 4G iPad Models Will Work on AT&T, Not on LTE in Home Countries

[Mj13young]

So let's see if we all agree.

If someone was to purchase an iPad 3 4g AT&T, for Europe, it will operate (over a mobile network) just as well or possibly faster than the current iPad 2 3G AT&T does today. It may not work with the future LTE networks, that might be available in a year, but it will continue to operate with the current 3G service as long as the 3G service is available. Does everyone agree with this?

 

[KPOM]

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It's astounding the ignorance and sheer arrogance of some of the posts coming from the US posters in here, yes we don't have widespread deployments o LTE here but when it is next year, the iPad is redundant. People would be wise to skip this version. This is a major major fail by apple to only support us non globally agreed frequencies bad bad move

How exactly is it "redundant"? It will still work on your fast 3G networks. Next year is a year away. By then, when LTE is available, there is likely to be a version that supports international LTE frequencies. Everyone else will still have access to the 3G networks. It isn't as if the carriers are suddenly going to shut off your 3G networks next year.

Apple didn't have to put any LTE support at all and they would have sold boatloads based on the screen alone (and they have cornered the supply chain for a few months on that front). Witness the sales of the iPhone 4S.

Remember, the vast majority of iPad 2 models sold were the Wi-Fi only version. Most people have broadband at home and data plans on their mobile phones. The iPads with cellular radios appeal to people who can afford a third data plan. They are also the same people more likely to upgrade more frequently.

I'm guessing the vast majority of the public (in Europe and North America) doesn't know or care much about the underlying technologies of mobile phone networks. However, they can be truthfully told that this version has fast wireless access, likely as fast or faster than the phones that they already have.

No, this isn't the answer those on the cutting edge of technology like to hear, but it makes perfect commercial sense. Apple in general doesn't live on the cutting edge. They produce refined products usually based on technology a step or two back from the edge (with notable exceptions, such as displays).

 

[ct2k7]

Witness the sales of the iPhone 4S.

Siri
A5 processor
iOS 5 + iCloud

 

[unlinked]

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There are 2 slightly different problems. Some countries in Europe have LTE right now and the new iPad does not work with it. The rest will get it eventually and then the new iPad will not work with it. They may be big or small or no problem at all but they are different.

 

[JAT]

Wrong, the first country to deploy LTE was Sweden, and I'm willing to bet they currently have the best coverage in the world relatively speaking.
Why are people so quick to dismiss europes comittment to LTE? Is it american arrogance speaking again?

Ok. So....

Sweden....check
USA....check (still pretty limited)

How many actual square miles of coverage exist in the rest of the planet?

 

[Chlloret]

So

If I see this right. The new iPad 4G will not give me access to the experimental LTE Network here that would give me 20 Mbits down and a throttle to 386kbs after 5GB all for just 30 Euros/month
It WILL give me access to the 3G Network that will give me 42 Megs down, no throttle for 25 Euros /Month.
With the 3G I am mobile (handover) with LTE stationary (no handover)
What exactly are you people moaning about?

 

[hfletcher]

Direct quote from Apple's UK website:

"The new iPad supports fast mobile networks the world over — up to 4G LTE"

Sorry? Supports the world over? up to 4G LTE Isn't this marketing ridiculously ambiguous? Since 4G LTE on this device will only EVER work in North America...

 

[KPOM]

Direct quote from Apple's UK website:

"The new iPad supports fast mobile networks the world over — up to 4G LTE"

Sorry? Supports the world over? up to 4G LTE Isn't this marketing ridiculously ambiguous? Since 4G LTE on this device will only EVER work in North America...

There are fast mobile networks the world over that are not 4G LTE. "Up to" are the key words. For instance DC-HSDPA and HSPA+ 21, both of which are new to the iPad line and are significantly faster than the wireless networks supported previous model. For that matter, they are about as fast as the 4G LTE networks that Verizon and AT&T are running in the US.

 

[Lennholm]

Ok. So....

Sweden....check
USA....check (still pretty limited)

How many actual square miles of coverage exist in the rest of the planet?

The point is still that when the rest of europe goes LTE they do it with the frequencies that Sweden is using, that isn't supported by the new iPad. That means there is a huge market for a europe model iPad 3 that supports the european frequencies instead of the american ones.
As it stands now, all iPad 3's sold in europe contain technology that will never be used, now or in the future.
It's clear Apple is doing this to give european customers a reason to buy the iPad 4 next year

 

[apollo1444]

it will work in Mexico at least because Telcel will use the same bands as AT&T for LTE

 

[tombelton]

How exactly is it "redundant"? It will still work on your fast 3G networks. Next year is a year away. By then, when LTE is available, there is likely to be a version that supports international LTE frequencies. Everyone else will still have access to the 3G networks. It isn't as if the carriers are suddenly going to shut off your 3G networks next year.

Apple didn't have to put any LTE support at all and they would have sold boatloads based on the screen alone (and they have cornered the supply chain for a few months on that front). Witness the sales of the iPhone 4S.

Remember, the vast majority of iPad 2 models sold were the Wi-Fi only version. Most people have broadband at home and data plans on their mobile phones. The iPads with cellular radios appeal to people who can afford a third data plan. They are also the same people more likely to upgrade more frequently.

I'm guessing the vast majority of the public (in Europe and North America) doesn't know or care much about the underlying technologies of mobile phone networks. However, they can be truthfully told that this version has fast wireless access, likely as fast or faster than the phones that they already have.

No, this isn't the answer those on the cutting edge of technology like to hear, but it makes perfect commercial sense. Apple in general doesn't live on the cutting edge. They produce refined products usually based on technology a step or two back from the edge (with notable exceptions, such as displays).

No, the iPad 4G data connection won't be redundant, but I'm really surprised to see how many idiot blind fanbois there are on this forum that would suck Tim Cook's c**k even if he put out a stinking piece of ******. Just didn't expect it here.

The point is that Apple have misled people outside the US. Period. I have a much, much greater level of experience with Apple products than most people buying the new iPad, but even I bought the '4G' version thinking it would work on 4G networks when they turned up in the UK. Technically they have covered their asses but it doesn't mean they're not misleading people.

 

[KPOM]

The point is still that when the rest of europe goes LTE they do it with the frequencies that Sweden is using, that isn't supported by the new iPad. That means there is a huge market for a europe model iPad 3 that supports the european frequencies instead of the american ones.
As it stands now, all iPad 3's sold in europe contain technology that will never be used, now or in the future.
It's clear Apple is doing this to give european customers a reason to buy the iPad 4 next year

A company wants people to buy their products next year? Who'd have thought?

If that were the sole reason, then why did they add LTE for North America this year? Why not just stick with HSPA+ and count on the higher definition screen and updated graphics to sell the new version? The iPhone 4S sells extremely well in the US, and it lacks LTE, as well.

I believe the Qualcomm MDM9600 baseband chip doesn't support European LTE frequencies, since it was designed primarily to support North American carriers like Verizon (since it does support CDMA, as well). Since the MDM9600 is a power hog (being a 45mn chip), my guess is that it was a stopgap so that Apple could support AT&T and Verizon's respective LTE rollouts (which are being heavily promoted here) until Qualcomm's newer, more power-efficient chips are ready, at which point they will be added first to the new iPhone, and then to the next iPad.

In short, all it really does is put the US version on par with the European versions in terms of download speeds, since our carriers don't support DC-HSDPA, and our LTE is only about as fast as that.

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The point is that Apple have misled people outside the US. Period. I have a much, much greater level of experience with Apple products than most people buying the new iPad, but even I bought the '4G' version thinking it would work on 4G networks when they turned up in the UK. Technically they have covered their asses but it doesn't mean they're not misleading people.

If you are that much more knowledgeable, why not look at the specs? They are on Apple's website. For most customers, I would guess they wouldn't really know or care what network it runs on so long as it gets downloads. That's the reality. Most people aren't as interested in underlying wireless technology as those who post to MacRumors.

Whether they are being misleading is up to advertising regulators to decide. Technically, even LTE doesn't meet the ITU's original definition of "4G" while HSPA+ meets their revised definition. I notice they are careful not to call this the Wi-Fi+ LTE version, but rather the Wi-Fi+ 4G version.

Also, I'm not suggesting that Apple can do no wrong. However, I do think people here are overreacting. LTE was one of the "maybe" predictions before it was released. The main upgrade is the display. And even in the EU the iPad did get a wireless upgrade, since it supports DC-HSDPA and faster HSPA+ speeds than the old version did.

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so wait, If i buy an ipad 3 4G in Canada, it will work fine without any restrictions on AT&T network, right? just making sure since I want to buy some a gift and they will use it on AT&T

Yes, it will work.

 

[kiljoy616]

Why to many LTE standards. That is a bad thing for technology of this kind.

 

[KPOM]

Wait so, this new iPad only fully works in Murrika?

I'll stick to my iPad 2 then.

You'll be missing out on the screen with 4x the resolution. The new version still works faster than your iPad 2, as well, since that one is limited to HSPA+ 7.2 and the new one supports HSPA+ 21 and DC-HSDPA at 42 Mbps.

----------

Why to many LTE standards. That is a bad thing for technology of this kind.

It's a matter of where each country has free spectrum. Since we still keep 2G and 3G networks running, with each new generation, there is less and less available spectrum. Most countries are re-selling spectrum that had previously been occupied by analog television. The 700MHz bands that AT&T and Verizon use are two examples. Unfortunately, that also differs from country to country.

 

[kiljoy616]

Does anyone know if the new iPad with wifi+4G that will be sold in the US is able to default to 3G in those countries that don't support it?

For example, I buy a new iPad with wifi+4G in the US, but take a trip to Germany. Since the LTE chip won't support German LTE networks, will it default to 3G?

Thanks!

Did you not watch the keynote, its all there about what it can do. Yes the chip falls back. LTE is a joke still a few years out before we really see it to level we can use when traveling. If your in a city that has it then more power to you if not your SOL.

 

[Misaki]

The point is that Apple have misled people outside the US. Period. I have a much, much greater level of experience with Apple products than most people buying the new iPad, but even I bought the '4G' version thinking it would work on 4G networks when they turned up in the UK. Technically they have covered their asses but it doesn't mean they're not misleading people.

It's about as misleading as buying a Plug-in Hybrid car. Hybrid car runs on gas or electricity, you don't have to use both and can use exclusivity one technology if the charging stations or gas stations are available. They aren't available in the boondocks and you aren't forced to use one to the exclusivity to the other. Getting mad over it is like claiming that one shouldn't sell a plug-in hybrid in places where there are no charging stations. Why not when it still works with the existing infrastructure?

If you already have a LTE phone, you don't even have to buy the LTE iPad model if you always carry around the phone. Some ISP's like Rogers in Canada and AT&T in the US do data-pooling (particularly with business accounts) and for them buying data in bulk for several devices that are always on so they can manage them remotely. You can't assume WiFi is everywhere, nor can you expect your employees to not be a dumbass and leave their iToys in the bar.

If people are being mislead, it's because they are incapable of reading fine print. That's okay, people are human and don't always read the stuff they're supposed to read. But they have no grounds to sue, and Apple reserves the right to release ISP-specific iPad's should the interest be there. Look at the teardowns of the previous models, the 3G radio is a separate piece, and all that really changes between Verizon and AT&T models are the power amplifier chips used. Do a google search for LTE power amplifers. There are very few out there, and they're mostly for 700Mhz bands.

 

[Lennholm]

It's about as misleading as buying a Plug-in Hybrid car. Hybrid car runs on gas or electricity, you don't have to use both and can use exclusivity one technology if the charging stations or gas stations are available. They aren't available in the boondocks and you aren't forced to use one to the exclusivity to the other. Getting mad over it is like claiming that one shouldn't sell a plug-in hybrid in places where there are no charging stations. Why not when it still works with the existing infrastructure?

If you already have a LTE phone, you don't even have to buy the LTE iPad model if you always carry around the phone. Some ISP's like Rogers in Canada and AT&T in the US do data-pooling (particularly with business accounts) and for them buying data in bulk for several devices that are always on so they can manage them remotely. You can't assume WiFi is everywhere, nor can you expect your employees to not be a dumbass and leave their iToys in the bar.

If people are being mislead, it's because they are incapable of reading fine print. That's okay, people are human and don't always read the stuff they're supposed to read. But they have no grounds to sue, and Apple reserves the right to release ISP-specific iPad's should the interest be there. Look at the teardowns of the previous models, the 3G radio is a separate piece, and all that really changes between Verizon and AT&T models are the power amplifier chips used. Do a google search for LTE power amplifers. There are very few out there, and they're mostly for 700Mhz bands.

Car analogies never work, here's why yours doesn't:
It's not misleading to claim that a car runs on electricity and gas if it's perfectly common knowledge that charging stations aren't available in certain areas.
It would be misleading to claim "this car runs on electricity and fossil fuels" not specifying that they only mean one type of fossil fuel, diesel, and the only one available to you is gasoline. And this is more akin to what Apple is doing with the marketing of the new iPad

 

[Chlloret]

The point is that Apple have misled people outside the US. Period. I have a much, much greater level of experience with Apple products than most people buying the new iPad, but even I bought the '4G' version thinking it would work on 4G networks when they turned up in the UK. Technically they have covered their asses but it doesn't mean they're not misleading people.

When 4G (LTE) Networks roll out for the public in the uk we will write mid 2013 or even beginning of 2014, one, or even two iPad revisions from now. And you will not like it. I see the plans they offer in parts of Germany, here in Spain and the ideas Vodafone and others have in the uk.
The networks are going to have a theoretical maximum of 100Mb, but nobody, I mean nobody, is going to get that. In Germany in practice (I did try with a LTE USB Stick) you get "up to" 50 Mb with rediculous short cut off points (5,10 or 20 Gb) before being throttled to 386kb. The whole thing with prices that are more 90s then today.
In practice you get real 30-35Mbs down. So, depending on your cut off point, you have a few minutes to half an hour a month and you are done. Also, you can not move around, they have an experimental handover on the 20 Mbs tariff, but it usually is not working, also, the coverted areas are so small, that driving in a train gets you 5-10 mins max coverage on a hour trip.

On the other hand you got the 3G Network, very well build up, download speeds of "up to" 42 Mbs, in practice around 30-35Mbs. The same then LTE. But, no throttle, funktioning handover, and half the price. More important, WAY less battery use, extreem quick hook up and with ping times as low as 40ms even usable for casual gamers. I have 3G coverage everywhere in my house, the office and everywhere in between. The LTE stops at the first wall, no penetration at all, its really useless. It is also marketed not for mobile use (the proposed speeds make no sense anyway on a iPad, phone or what ever) but as DSL replacement, stationary at home. They put a small Antenna on your roof and you get fast internet when no DSL lines are available.

So, why are some people here so hot for LTE? in the states I can understand it, any one that knows European networks and "experiences" fe AT&T offerings will understand that something has to be done. It really, well, its not good......

But here in Europe LTE is a LONG way off before it can get any headway against the existing and still improving 3G Networks. If the new iPad would support european LTE AND 3G, the LTE part would be the first thing I disconnect.

 

[Chlloret]

The point is still that when the rest of europe goes LTE they do it with the frequencies that Sweden is using, that isn't supported by the new iPad. That means there is a huge market for a europe model iPad 3 that supports the european frequencies instead of the american ones.
As it stands now, all iPad 3's sold in europe contain technology that will never be used, now or in the future.
It's clear Apple is doing this to give european customers a reason to buy the iPad 4 next year

I am sorry, but you are wrong. There will be a total off 9 different bands being used in Europe for future LTE, one or two might (some countries did not even specify yet) be the ones from Sweden.
None will bring the speeds from Sweden.
And why do you say the technology in these iPads is never being used? Can you immagine, that people travel? So, a European can NOW take advantage of fast 3G networks in Europe (up to 42 Mbs) travel to the States and continue to enjoy fast Internet at the same or only slightly lower speeds there.
And yes, Apple wants you to buy next years iPad, we are not talking about a charity organisation here. But even next years iPad, even supporting European LTE bands, will only be used in very small numbers for that, as even next year there will be hartly any coverage to speak of in the populated aereas.
Scandinavia is a exception, loads of landmass with nobody living there and even the people using the network do not crowd it, there are simply not enough of them.
This is not tru of the rest of Europe (the other 92%)

 

[tombelton]

When 4G (LTE) Networks roll out for the public in the uk we will write mid 2013 or even beginning of 2014, one, or even two iPad revisions from now. And you will not like it. I see the plans they offer in parts of Germany, here in Spain and the ideas Vodafone and others have in the uk.
The networks are going to have a theoretical maximum of 100Mb, but nobody, I mean nobody, is going to get that. In Germany in practice (I did try with a LTE USB Stick) you get "up to" 50 Mb with rediculous short cut off points (5,10 or 20 Gb) before being throttled to 386kb. The whole thing with prices that are more 90s then today.
In practice you get real 30-35Mbs down. So, depending on your cut off point, you have a few minutes to half an hour a month and you are done. Also, you can not move around, they have an experimental handover on the 20 Mbs tariff, but it usually is not working, also, the coverted areas are so small, that driving in a train gets you 5-10 mins max coverage on a hour trip.

On the other hand you got the 3G Network, very well build up, download speeds of "up to" 42 Mbs, in practice around 30-35Mbs. The same then LTE. But, no throttle, funktioning handover, and half the price. More important, WAY less battery use, extreem quick hook up and with ping times as low as 40ms even usable for casual gamers. I have 3G coverage everywhere in my house, the office and everywhere in between. The LTE stops at the first wall, no penetration at all, its really useless. It is also marketed not for mobile use (the proposed speeds make no sense anyway on a iPad, phone or what ever) but as DSL replacement, stationary at home. They put a small Antenna on your roof and you get fast internet when no DSL lines are available.

So, why are some people here so hot for LTE? in the states I can understand it, any one that knows European networks and "experiences" fe AT&T offerings will understand that something has to be done. It really, well, its not good......

But here in Europe LTE is a LONG way off before it can get any headway against the existing and still improving 3G Networks. If the new iPad would support european LTE AND 3G, the LTE part would be the first thing I disconnect.

Dude, that's one of the best post's I've seen in this thread. Informing and unbiased. I guess it's difficult to see how these networks will turn out when they arrive but you've shed an interesting light on it.

I still think the best deal all round for people outside the US is to buy the WiFi only iPad, and then tether and use 4G with the new iPad when it turns up.. It's what I've ended up doing after cancelling my '4G' iPad.

 

[Chlloret]

Dude, that's one of the best post's I've seen in this thread. Informing and unbiased. I guess it's difficult to see how these networks will turn out when they arrive but you've shed an interesting light on it.

I still think the best deal all round for people outside the US is to buy the WiFi only iPad, and then tether and use 4G with the new iPad when it turns up.. It's what I've ended up doing after cancelling my '4G' iPad.

Well, the 4G model has GPS, that alone would be worth it. I use right now in my iPad2 the secondary card for my phone. That way I do not have to teather (a major pull on the mobile phone battery) and its not really wise to go to wifi only because of the speed. Like I said, the supported 3G speeds in Europe are faster then anything an American could hope for ever getting on there LTE. It will be actually faster then our LTE when it launches, cheaper anyway.
Besides, even if you get a mobile that supports LTE and you teather, you would not get the full speed, Wifi is slower then "4G 3G" or LTE.

 

[MH01]

It's about as misleading as buying a Plug-in Hybrid car. Hybrid car runs on gas or electricity, you don't have to use both and can use exclusivity one technology if the charging stations or gas stations are available. They aren't available in the boondocks and you aren't forced to use one to the exclusivity to the other. Getting mad over it is like claiming that one shouldn't sell a plug-in hybrid in places where there are no charging stations. Why not when it still works with the existing infrastructure?

If you already have a LTE phone, you don't even have to buy the LTE iPad model if you always carry around the phone. Some ISP's like Rogers in Canada and AT&T in the US do data-pooling (particularly with business accounts) and for them buying data in bulk for several devices that are always on so they can manage them remotely. You can't assume WiFi is everywhere, nor can you expect your employees to not be a dumbass and leave their iToys in the bar.

If people are being mislead, it's because they are incapable of reading fine print. That's okay, people are human and don't always read the stuff they're supposed to read. But they have no grounds to sue, and Apple reserves the right to release ISP-specific iPad's should the interest be there. Look at the teardowns of the previous models, the 3G radio is a separate piece, and all that really changes between Verizon and AT&T models are the power amplifier chips used. Do a google search for LTE power amplifers. There are very few out there, and they're mostly for 700Mhz bands.

hmmm nope.

its like saying that the New Apple iCar will run on the New BP premium Ultra F1 fuel, which give you 50% lower consumption and 20% more power will used in the iCar. The New Apple iCar will also be sold in Europe/rest of the world, though the New BP premium Ultra F1 fuel is not sold in outside of Northern America. But do not worry, it will still run on diesel over in Europe, cause its awesome and backwards compatible with crappy fuels If you ever take you iCar over to northern america, good news they have New BP premium Ultra F1 fuel.

Yeah it is misleading. I have accepted Apple's marketing at work here, why is it so hard for the fanboys to accept it??? The keynote I watching clearing said the world is getting a LTE iPad. And we are!!!!, its just that it will not work at those speeds outside northern America.

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Well, the 4G model has GPS, that alone would be worth it. I use right now in my iPad2 the secondary card for my phone. That way I do not have to teather (a major pull on the mobile phone battery) and its not really wise to go to wifi only because of the speed. Like I said, the supported 3G speeds in Europe are faster then anything an American could hope for ever getting on there LTE. It will be actually faster then our LTE when it launches, cheaper anyway.
Besides, even if you get a mobile that supports LTE and you teather, you would not get the full speed, Wifi is slower then "4G 3G" or LTE.

Its actually assisted GPS. Not as accurate. Though good enough i guess.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Ok. So....

Sweden....check
USA....check (still pretty limited)
How many actual square miles of coverage exist in the rest of the planet?

LTE on German Vodafone:

http://www.vodafone.de/privat/hilfe-support/netzabdeckung.html

The entire country makes for a population of 82 million (roughly equaling the population of the three most populous US states of California, Texas and New York combined), distributed over an area smaller than the state of Montana.

So much for "there's hardly any LTE in Europe".

I think, Vodafone's network alone doesn't look bad at all, in terms of covered area size. Interesting note: LTE coverage is pretty complementary to UMTS/HSPA coverage, i.e., most LTE covered areas do not have UMTS/HSPA coverage as a "fall-back".

Put differently: It is solely the iPad's frequency band limitation that prevents wide areas from having any mobile high-speed access at all (on an iPad).

 

[DarkKnightNine]

LTE was developed in Japan

Sweden may have been the first country to test and deploy LTE in a small area but it was developed by NTT DoCoMo and deployed nationwide first here in Japan. We also have the fastest tested LTE networks with the largest coverage thanks to NTT DoCoMo and eAccess, but the new iPad won't work on either of those networks which pretty much sucks.

 

[mitschka]

i hope the next Iphone with LTE supports the Europa version