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If I want to have a choice of that kind I would have chosen an Android. But I chose an Apple just because of it's a closed environment. EU gave apple users option nobody asked for while thing people are asking for is nobody dealing with from these "EU people" in position to make a difference.
I didn't choose Apple because it's a closed environment, and I actively want Apple to be more open.
Like everyone has been saying for months, you can just choose to keep your environment as closed as you want, nobody will force you to install apps from outside the App Store.
 
terrible UX. no thanks.

glad Apple is doing the 0.50 euro fee. developers should not be freeloading off the hard work Apple has done to make this possible.
The only hard work Apple has recently done is the one to enforce their €0.50 junk fee.
Downloading and installing apps from websites has been possible on iOS for many years.
terrible take.
Apple made Safari free since the beginning. Safari is funded by the device purchase.

Apple didn't make native apps downloaded from web free on iOS since the beginning
They did make it free. Publication of apps in the App Store was free from the beginning (except of course paying the yearly developer fee). That’s one of the main contributors to making iPhones popular at all.
 

Apps that are distributed through alternative app stores in EU countries will need to submit to a notarization process that's similar to the notarization process for Mac apps. According to Apple, Notarization applies to all apps, and it is a process focused on privacy, security, and maintaining device integrity.

That's not what the DMA says: "[...] do not endanger the integrity of the hardware or operating system provided by the gatekeeper [...]"

If the app endanger privacy but not the hardware or the operating system, I don't see how Apple is allowed not to approve it.

Do you?
 
Do you prefer Apple’s paternalism instead then? The EU is trying to provide a choice: you can download from Apple’s App Store or from a developer’s website. That seems less paternalistic than Apple’s way. I will always choose to have a choice over being forced into a corporation’s way of doing things (and I’m no fan of the EU).
What I don't want is for Apple to be treated with such hypocrisy. Now they are forcing you with the ability to delete the photo app, when on the Pixel it won't let you uninstall it. Why such double standards from Europe?

Without liking everything Apple does, I think they are going crazy with so much crap, in my opinion. The European Union seems to want iOS to be Android, and the truth is that I don't like bureaucrats who have no idea about technology saying how technology has to be.

Recently in Spain Telegram was almost blocked by a judge of a high court, for intellectual property infringements. In the end he had to backtrack and not block it, and acknowledged that he didn't know what Telegram was. He thought it was an app to watch and broadcast TV content illegally.

What I mean is that while Apple needs a wake-up call, some things are completely unfounded. I agree that cloud gaming apps should be allowed, like Xbox, Steam and other platforms, because our devices are powerful enough to run those games without a problem.

But allowing to install apps on a device as personal as our phone without any guarantee seems to me a disaster. Maybe this is what the European Union is trying to do, to create security breaches in iOS to access it, as it happens with Android.
 
I’m really interested where this ends up.

The notarization is something which may be easily thrown away by the EU, because it may go against the whole DMA idea, the core fee for free apps may be something to discuss and iPadOS inclusion too.
I‘m torn on the core tech fee. Apple provides you full access to all developer tools, docs and even support for a very low entry point of $99 / year (no real seat pricing, you buy this once for your company).

This whole model is funded by the ecosystem getting 15/30% via IAP.

You now have the EU, Spotify, Epic and a plethora of other big corps saying „you can‘t force them to use your App Store and your IAP System, let them do it free of charge“.
It‘s only fair to Apple to get compensated for the very good DX it provides? Should they now go to per seat DX licensing (like Microsoft, charging thousands / year for VS access)? Apple decided on the 50c CTF model, lets see if that flies or whether they bite and come up with something else.

Nevertheless, arguing the „device already covers this!!!“ is a stupid argument, since the whole DX Apple provides is done by teams not actively working on the products (and you could say the same for all the other corps milking their developer platforms, I mean MS surely makes enough from Azure services, why do I have to pay for developing on their platform?).

If I were Apple I‘d just do it like this:
- Scrap the CTF
- People who want to distribute elsewhere can do it for free, under the condition they do not monetize their App in any way (enable truly free to use Apps)
- Apps distributing elsewhere / wanting to use their own IAP need to get on a different developer account licensing scheme that has per seat licensing on par with e.g. Microsoft products

That way Spotify pays a few thousand $ for access to the developer ecosystem Apple provides but they‘re still better off than having to pay the CTF for million of App downloads.
 
I‘m torn on the core tech fee. Apple provides you full access to all developer tools, docs and even support for a very low entry point of $99 / year (no real seat pricing, you buy this once for your company).

This whole model is funded by the ecosystem getting 15/30% via IAP.

You now have the EU, Spotify, Epic and a plethora of other big corps saying „you can‘t force them to use your App Store and your IAP System, let them do it free of charge“.
It‘s only fair to Apple to get compensated for the very good DX it provides? Should they now go to per seat DX licensing (like Microsoft, charging thousands / year for VS access)? Apple decided on the 50c CTF model, lets see if that flies or whether they bite and come up with something else.

Nevertheless, arguing the „device already covers this!!!“ is a stupid argument, since the whole DX Apple provides is done by teams not actively working on the products (and you could say the same for all the other corps milking their developer platforms, I mean MS surely makes enough from Azure services, why do I have to pay for developing on their platform?).

If I were Apple I‘d just do it like this:
- Scrap the CTF
- People who want to distribute elsewhere can do it for free, under the condition they do not monetize their App in any way (enable truly free to use Apps)
- Apps distributing elsewhere / wanting to use their own IAP need to get on a different developer account licensing scheme that has per seat licensing on par with e.g. Microsoft products

That way Spotify pays a few thousand $ for access to the developer ecosystem Apple provides but they‘re still better off than having to pay the CTF for million of App downloads.
I’m not against core tech fee for paid apps. It does not sound right in case of free apps.

As whether this is standard practice or not - it certainly is not. No such fee applies to
  • Android
  • Microsoft Windows
  • Symbian (obviously history now)
  • and surprise surprise - you can develop completely free for macOS
So this argument about core tech fee on iOS is quite strange to me. It’s not standard and it does not need to be there. All the OS mentioned above provide SDKs too. And you can release your app for free - with no fee going to the OS developer.
 
Am I paranoid to wonder if the EU isn't trying to create a back door with this stuff?
Not sure if paranoid - but the argument doesn’t make sense. The more centralised app distribution is, the easier it is for government to force the platform owner to mandate backdoors - in secrecy.
Being in the US where this capability is not [yet?] available it sounds like iOS 17.5 will have much more bloat that provides me zero functionality but could result in a boatload of more bugs.
This capability will have zero bloat - since it’s been possible for years to download apps from websites and install them on iOS. Apple just didn’t allow it for commercial distribution.
The EU isn't giving a choice. It took away the only closed system from those who wanted it! For those who wanted a closed ecosystem...they no longer have that choice. Why is this so difficult for EU shills to understand?
You still have a choice of only downloading from Apple and its App Store.
Nothing has changed.
The average user though? I don’t think so. So, if something goes wrong, will they blame Apple for it when Apple had nothing to do with an app from a website?
I have 75+ year old relatives that know they shouldn’t download and say „yes“ to everything downloaded from the internet, They know that application/file downloads from the internet can be dangerous. And they wouldn’t blame Apple. Or Microsoft. Neither do Android users blame Google.

The claim is not based in reality.

Except… Apple are limiting and controlling developers that offer such downloads - and Apple intend to charge a recurring fee for such apps.

👉🏻 As long as Apple want to have their cake (charge fees), they should refrain from eating it (denying all responsibility)
 
1) Because we want one simple, secure and uniform system like iOS where the user doesn't do anything advanced, but the apps might.

2) Then we buy another system which is a bit more complex, less secure and less uniform when we need to do more advanced tasks like a Mac.

1) is like having a boring wife and children. 2) is your trained, fit mistress with an open attitude to experiment.

We want both, but never the twain shall meet.
 
So why couldn't Apple do something similar with what they do on the Mac, where they allow identified developers and give you a warning if you try to install from an unidentified developer?

That's what happening now with the DMA, but it's even better not to give the user any choice in the matter.
 
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I’m not against core tech fee for paid apps. It does not sound right in case of free apps.

As whether this is standard practice or not - it certainly is not. No such fee applies to
  • Android
  • Microsoft Windows
  • Symbian (obviously history now)
  • and surprise surprise - you can develop completely free for macOS
So this argument about core tech fee on iOS is quite strange to me. It’s not standard and it does not need to be there. All the OS mentioned above provide SDKs too. And you can release your app for free - with no fee going to the OS developer.
From my experience, none of these mentions come close to what you get as an iOS dev.

Windows just throws **** at the wall (hey look, the 10th UI SDK this year while abandoning tried solutions 24/7), charges you an arm and a leg for developer tools like Visual Studio (this is how they monetize) or is almost fully open source nowadays anyways.
macOS is the „ugly stepling“ in the Apple family, the DX is passable and only got saved by SwiftUI and Catalyst (or whatever it was called again) + it‘s probably also kind of funded by IAPs.

I don‘t want to comment on Android since I last actively developed for that a decade ago and it came NOWHERE close to the iOS Xcode experience (hint: it was so bad).

TL/DR: Nothing compares to iOS DX, unmatched in almost every category with a big, curated and tried ecosystem to dive into being given away for almost no cost ($99 / IAP commission).
 
I don’t know how Apple notarization would work. Should Apple approve every app release, then you can be pretty safe, because the binary would be signed and unsigned and unknown binaries would not be allowed.

If Apple signing will not be required (which I sincerely doubt) then it’s up to you who you trust. Just like games on Steam and other apps on Mac.

But this doesn't solve the problem at all.

How does Apple know if the binary submitted to them, is based on the open source code claimed by the developer on the developer's website? Apple can't and neither can the user.

The only sure way, is for the user to compile the source themselves.

I'm just arguing that you have to trust the one doing the compile.
 
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I’ll just sit back and laugh at the EU when the next SE comes out priced at €750.

What you folks don’t understand is Apple is gonna get its bag of cash come Hell or high water.

If they can’t make money on the software, they’ll make money on the hardware.

Unless the EU comes up with some regulation mandating iOS on non-Apple hardware.
 
Come guys, it's time to be honest with each other and ourselves:
8lbll0-2.jpg
 
Do you prefer Apple’s paternalism instead then? The EU is trying to provide a choice: you can download from Apple’s App Store or from a developer’s website. That seems less paternalistic than Apple’s way. I will always choose to have a choice over being forced into a corporation’s way of doing things (and I’m no fan of the EU).

Yes, but I think Apple should have been even stricter in censoring apps.

I want something like enlightened despotism when it comes to running a platform and ecosystem.
 
Apple couldn't innovate my iPhone anymore. Not even with help from Mr. "Courage" himself, Phil Schiller.

So the EU came to its rescue: First with USB-C. And now with competition for the iOS App Store.

It's good for me, it's good for you

-Hip-hip-hurray for the EU!

View attachment 2364925
View attachment 2364923
You forget we also get access to the Wallet app, so we can use services other than Apple Pay. Once again, thanks to the EU.
 
Will this feature be open for the UK as well?
Nope. EU members only:
Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden.
The other countries of Europe: Kosovo, the UK, Norway, Switzerland, Ukraine, Moldova, Albania, North Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Andorra, San Marino, Iceland, Türkiye, Belarus, Liechtenstein, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Russia and the Vatican are not currently EU members.
😎🇮🇪☘️
 
But this doesn't solve the problem at all.

How does Apple know if the binary submitted to them, is based on the open source code claimed by the developer on the developer's website? Apple can't and neither can the user.

The only sure way, is for the user to compile the source themselves.

I'm just arguing that you have to trust the one doing the compile.
So basically the same situation like in case of App Store. Devs also submits compiled binaries with no source code whatsoever.

And the same situation as with any software on macOS outside of App Store (which is majority of it, frankly). You never know whether the binary matches the source code unless you compile it yourself. Yet this trust usually works. It works on Linux distros (you usually download and install precompiled binaries) and it works on macOS as mentioned before. And it works on App Store too. This is common practice. You just have to trust your source. Don’t trust it, don’t download it. This is why we have sandbox on iOS and various levels of privileges on macOS.
 
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Do you prefer Apple’s paternalism instead then? The EU is trying to provide a choice: you can download from Apple’s App Store or from a developer’s website. That seems less paternalistic than Apple’s way. I will always choose to have a choice over being forced into a corporation’s way of doing things (and I’m no fan of the EU).
It amazes me constantly how double standard so many arguments are. So many here saying if you don't like the ability to download from alt stores, don't use it. Others saying if you don't like Apple controlling its ecosystem then go buy an Android. For all those banging on their "freedom" soapbox, it leaves me gobsmacked that people cannot see this is government controlling what a private company (one that revolutionized an industry, changed the world, etc. I might add) can and cannot do with its own creation. GM just decided one day to make Car Play no longer an option on their vehicles (happily told a salesman that was the sole reason I did not purchase the planned Corvette earlier this year.) No one is suing GM over the fact that you can no longer choose which phone you can enjoy between Android Auto and Apple Car Play. That's a company choosing to do with their product what they want. Apple made its mark by being the company that tightly couples its hardware and software. The limited flexibility keeps it far more stable and safe. Just baffles me how in a country that beats its own chest on the freedoms we have, but in the next breath demand the freedom of a company be superseded so they can have the freedom the want. And selective freedom at its best.
 
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