iPhone 13 Pro iPhone 13 Pro: Screen PWM flicker at ALL brightness

[RyanG]

Why are you click baiting?????bs

Chang is a frequent flier for PWM related posts. Happens every year. Any sensitivity to the “issue” is a severe minority, hence why you never see it become mainstream. He’s a troll and never posts scientific evidence related to the topic.

You can clearly see that his join date was in 2017, when Apple switched to OLED. It’s a troll account, nothing more.

 

[Wise_rice]

Eye strain can happen for many reasons when it comes lit screens but PWM sensitivity is not related to LASIC. Please provide scientific sources for the studies you are referring to which have control variables that are directly related to PWM.

I am happy for you, if you don't have this problem. You probably also don't need a wheelchair. But you should still respect the people who do.

Here is on of the many studies about PWM (which is a bit different from OLED flicker, I think because there is no consistent backlight for the whole screen, because each pixel lights up individually):
dial
and
NCBI



and the quick an dirty summary of it (Source: Notebookcheck):

LASIK (no C) itself is neither good or bad. But it optimizes the way light will go through your lens and hit your Macula lutea (the "sensor" of your eye). This is the reason why you don't need glasses anymore. Also it might leave small scars on your eyes surface which can make your eye more dry... Not necessarily related to PWM, but people become more sensitive/conscious about their eyes once they had a problem/surgery on them...


There are technical solutions to increase the flicker rate beyond the "sensible" threshold. LG and Xiaomi showed us that (partial?) DC dimming is possible on OLED screens. Yes, it will use a little bit more energy... But IMHO It's worth it.

 

[ghanwani]

Zollotech review says no flicker detected on 13 Pro and Pro Max, while flicker is still present on the 13 and 13 Mini.

 

[QuattroRS6]

So i played one hour with my 13 Pro and on the Highspeedcam i see compared to my 11 Pro where i have no Problems no Flickering on the 13 Pro. I think the new Pro has a verry high PWM Rate and on the first Minutes everything was fine, where i had big Problems with the 12 Pro last Year within the first Minutes. But now after 1 hour i feel a little bit dizzy.

 

[turkeybossman]

View attachment 1841672

1. iPhone 13 Pro is using 480hz PWM dimming at all brightness.
2. In iPhone 12 series, we can set a high brighness using DC dimming, and then use Reduce White Point to stimulate brightness adjust to avoid PWM flicker. But with 13 pro, there's no DC dimming at all.

I think eye strain on iPhone 13 pro will be much serious than iPhone 12/11 pro.

Guys,

I'm somewhat a of PWM crazy person. I've been aware of having this issue for almost 4 years. The source in the OP is not very well versed in PWM. 480 hz flicker should be sufficient to prevent issues with probably over 95% of people. I tried the white point trick on both pro models of the 12 pro last year and it was a no go for me.


I've tried and returned so many phones it's insane. I always reference notebook check and honestly, any phone I've ever used that gets to the high 300's has always been fine. The probelm is most phones are sub 300. Pixel 4 XL, Pixel 5, OnePlus 8T have all had similar flicker rates and those never bothered me. If this is truly at 480 hz, then you guys should celebrate, it means I can upgrade my iPhone 11 and stop using Chinese phones with a dedicated DC dimming mode (Xiaomi)

 

[paravin]

hardware PWM test on 13 Pro, Pro Max

 

[upandown]

hardware PWM test on 13 Pro, Pro Max

An explanation would be nice

 

[Mr.Simple]

Hmm this are not low numbers. I have hoped for under 10%.

 

[paravin]

An explanation would be nice

this video is in Russian language. a guy with a device that measures the pulsation coefficient came to buy a new iPhone for himself and his wife. First brought it to the pro max at 100% brightness. then 80%, then the same thing - on a blue background. according to him - pulsation is twice as high as measured on iphone 12 pro max.

 

[paravin]

Hmm this are not low numbers. I have hoped for under 10%.

yes. too high :-(

 

[jm31828]

this video is in Russian language. a guy with a device that measures the pulsation coefficient came to buy a new iPhone for himself and his wife. First brought it to the pro max at 100% brightness. then 80%, then the same thing - on a blue background. according to him - pulsation is twice as high as measured on iphone 12 pro max.

Did he look at the regular 13 as well, or only Pro/Pro Max?

 

[paravin]

Did he look at the regular 13 as well, or only Pro/Pro Max?

according to video - no. iphone 13 was at the very right and he not measured it unfortunately.

 

[trali]

Guys, before measuring pulsation coefficient you need to understand what it is and when does it matter.

PWM problem arose long before IPS and OLED screens. And you can meet it everywhere: at home, at work, during your commute. In every place where artificial light sources are present.

Industry has standards and rules regarding light sources in offices, schools, hospitals, etc. But there is no guarantee that your fancy home led light is operating within these rules, btw

There is a good article (in Russian, but you can use google translate): https://habr.com/ru/post/405821/

In short, higher PWM frequency is better, and if it’s greater than 300Hz your brain will probably never notice it, no matter what pulsation coefficient is.

 

[upandown]

yes. too high :-(

And what does the % represent?

% of the time the screen is off?

 

[kargurin]

Spent about 15 minutes at BB playing with the Pro Max. The screen first off looks better than the 12. I don't know how to explain it since the specs seems the same but it just looks clearer. And after 15 minutes, no headaches. I'll need to play with it more but I got eyestrain immediately from the 12 pro max. At the very least this one is easier on my eyes. BTW, all these flickering movies that are being posted.....after some consideration, they are useless. The movies are recording at a certain FPS, the screen is refreshing as a certain MHz, what shows up in the end from a slow mo or super slow mo recording is not very meaningful.

 

[ghanwani]

The movies are recording at a certain FPS, the screen is refreshing as a certain MHz, what shows up in the end from a slow mo or super slow mo recording is not very meaningful.

I agree they don't give the complete picture. I had really bad headaches and eye pain with M1 MBA and M1 MBP and not with the Intel ones from the a previous year that supposedly use the same display.

 

[trali]

And what does the % represent?

% of the time the screen is off?

It means Percent flicker (also known as peak-to-peak contrast, Michelson contrast, Modulation (%), or
modulation depth, in Russia it is pulsation coefficient).

Percent flicker is defined as 100(Max – Min)/(Max + Min), where Max and Min are maximum and minimum levels of light output during one cycle.

Please note, I’m not a physicist, so my wording may not be 100% correct

Here is another useful piece of info: https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/05/f22/miller+lehman_flicker_lightfair2015.pdf

BTW, all these flickering movies that are being posted.....after some consideration, they are useless. The movies are recording at a certain FPS, the screen is refreshing as a certain MHz, what shows up in the end from a slow mo or super slow mo recording is not very meaningful.

Yes, they are useless in measuring exact frequency, but slo-mo cameras in our phones are quite handy in establishing the fact that flicker itself is present.

 

[gigapocket1]

I agree with what’s said earlier.. this screen is definitely better. Still not sure if I have any affects.. I don’t want to think myself sick either.
I will say that this phone is amazing lol

 

[kargurin]

It means Percent flicker (also known as peak-to-peak contrast, Michelson contrast, Modulation (%), or
modulation depth, in Russia it is pulsation coefficient).

Percent flicker is defined as 100(Max – Min)/(Max + Min), where Max and Min are maximum and minimum levels of light output during one cycle.

Please note, I’m not a physicist, so my wording may not be 100% correct

Here is another useful piece of info: https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/05/f22/miller+lehman_flicker_lightfair2015.pdf


Yes, they are useless in measuring exact frequency, but slo-mo cameras in our phones are quite handy in establishing the fact that flicker itself is present.

I have a Note 10 + that flickers in a slo mo video. It’s the only OLED I’ve been able to use the past two years. Everything else gives me headache’s. Ever watch a video that shows a TV in the background? It flickers. Does that mean you will get a headache from the TV in the video? If it’s not an LCD, it’s gonna flicker under the right circumstances when recording.

 

[ghanwani]

I went to the store and played with the phones. There is a HUGE difference in the scrolling performance of the pro vs non-pro. With the non-pro I feel eyestrain when scrolling, just as I have with all prior OLED iPhones. With the pro it's super smooth. I actually thought this display was better than even the SE 2000.

These pro phones really feel like a brick in the hand, though.

 

[cababah]

Is it possible people are confusing eye strain from PWM with the low 60Hz refresh rate? The blurring of text while scrolling can strain your eyes while they continuously attempt to focus.

The 120Hz refresh rate in the 13 Pro and Pro Max help alleviate that. So far, some have reported less PWM effect but it really varies person to person.

 

[Mastrociambella]

480hz looks like a pretty good value, and if it is fixed at all brightness levels I could really enjoy the display…
I had bad issues with iPhone XS, then I used Samsung s10+ (No issue), s20+ (light PWM effects), I’m using S21 Ultra (bad PWM issues, I need to use oled saver, an overlay app, to keep brightness up and have display dimmed by this app).
Frequency values are similar across all these devices, so I guess I’m sensitive to variations too, I bet it’s better to have PWM (a high level, hopefully) at all brightness instead of great fluctuations (in fact some time ago I think I read that Samsung used PWM at all levels, maybe they stopped after s10 lineup).
Fixed 480hz seems like great news for me, I hope to get more confirmations about that (I don’t understand the Russian video posted above, as I have no other reference values to compare)

 

[klover]

Had slight discomfort with X but nothing with 11 Pro Max or 12 (regular).
But with 13 Pro Max I'm definitely experiencing some discomfort, almost a sense of disorientation/light-headedness.

Based on what I'm reading in this thread I would have assumed that this iPhone would have been better that earlier models so I have no idea why it's bothering me.

I have 2 weeks to see how this goes I guess.

 

[1369281]

There is some decent information about pulsation coefficient and PWM in this thread. Thanks to those people who have provided it. I also appreciate @paravin for the video which provides inarguable evidence how much PWM sucks. I will not buy a phone or anything with a display that uses PWM.

 

[1369281]

hardware PWM test on 13 Pro, Pro Max

Thank you for this video. I find irony in the fact that the meter's display uses very low frequency PWM.