iPhone 8 Facial Recognition Will Likely Work With Apple Pay According to HomePod Firmware

[carpleror]

Pearl ID clearly refers to our pearly whites. It will deny access to our iPhone if we haven't brushed our teeth! ADA approved.

"It took a lot of courage to deny access to consumers with poor dental records, but Apple feels strongly that proper dental hygiene will change the world!"
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So if I am doing winter sports, I am going to have to take off my face protection rather than just taking off a glove? And if it's anything like Touch ID, I will have to have a face profile for day, night, winter, summer, dry, humid, shave day, non-shave day, good mood, bad mood, sunglasses, no sunglasses, etc. Oh but wait, I'm sure we'll be limited to five profiles.

And that's where the problem with facial recognition arises. There are so many factors that change the way we look on a daily basis (shaving, haircut, make up, lighting, angle, etc.) that it would need so many profiles to accurately unlock your phone in every situation. And with each additional profile you add, you increase the risk of it making an error on someone who isn't you. Your fingerprint however, never changes. You don't have to shave a fingerprint...
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They just introduced Touch ID into the MacBook line so why the hell would they be now trying to eliminate it?

Exactly! Why not just wait to refresh the Mac and just add facial recognition software after the iPhone 8 was released? Oh, because you waited too long between Mac refreshes? Well than why not just wait to refresh the iPhone until you could put TouchID under the display? Oh, because it's been 3 years since your last iPhone redesign?

Sounds like Apple has some time management issues...

 

[jmgregory1]

So if I am doing winter sports, I am going to have to take off my face protection rather than just taking off a glove? And if it's anything like Touch ID, I will have to have a face profile for day, night, winter, summer, dry, humid, shave day, non-shave day, good mood, bad mood, sunglasses, no sunglasses, etc. Oh but wait, I'm sure we'll be limited to five profiles.

First of all, I'm not sure what situation you'd be in where you could more easily take off a glove, but not remove a pair of goggles or face mask. Second, regarding the environmental or physical differences, it's far more likely that the things FaceID will be focusing on are not going to negatively effect its use. In the case of a shave vs non-shave image of your face, your eyes will still be measured the same, as will your mouth, your ears, you nose, etc. The software may take into account facial hair or lack thereof, but those things could change on a daily basis and still not alter the other hard aspects of your face / head.
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If the sensor is also looking for temperature regions in the face, a simple bust wouldn't work.

It would have to be fancier, like those fake fingers with pulsing "blood" used to attack more sophisticated fingerprint readers.

I agree. Very unlikely, without spending a lot of time and money to create an almost perfect lifelike replica. Certainly more complicated (nay impossible) than what it takes to scan and reproduce a copy of a fingerprint.

 

[carpleror]

First of all, I'm not sure what situation you'd be in where you could more easily take off a glove, but not remove a pair of goggles or face mask. Second, regarding the environmental or physical differences, it's far more likely that the things FaceID will be focusing on are not going to negatively effect its use. In the case of a shave vs non-shave image of your face, your eyes will still be measured the same, as will your mouth, your ears, you nose, etc. The software may take into account facial hair or lack thereof, but those things could change on a daily basis and still not alter the other hard aspects of your face / head.

I'll give you a situation, what if you're wearing a motorcycle helmet. You're lost, and you pull over on the side of the rode to get directions on your phone. You have to take off your helmet just to unlock your phone?

Idk if you've ever worn motorcycle helmet but they're a bitch to get on and off. Much easier to take off your glove, which you'd have to do to work the touch screen anyway...

 

[Olganech]

I'll give you a situation, what if you're wearing a motorcycle helmet. You're lost, and you pull over on the side of the rode to get directions on your phone. You have to take off your helmet just to unlock your phone?

Idk if you've ever worn motorcycle helmet but they're a bitch to get on and off. Much easier to take off your glove, which you'd have to do to work the touch screen anyway...

If it is IRIS you lift u ok your visor.

 

[neutralguy]

So if I am doing winter sports, I am going to have to take off my face protection rather than just taking off a glove? And if it's anything like Touch ID, I will have to have a face profile for day, night, winter, summer, dry, humid, shave day, non-shave day, good mood, bad mood, sunglasses, no sunglasses, etc. Oh but wait, I'm sure we'll be limited to five profiles.

You can have 10 profiles on iPhone 8+.

 

[neutralguy]

1. Denial <--
   
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

The best message in the thread! Can't stop laughing as I imagine how people will go through all those phases after the iPhone 8 is released.

 

[jmgregory1]

I'll give you a situation, what if you're wearing a motorcycle helmet. You're lost, and you pull over on the side of the rode to get directions on your phone. You have to take off your helmet just to unlock your phone?

Idk if you've ever worn motorcycle helmet but they're a bitch to get on and off. Much easier to take off your glove, which you'd have to do to work the touch screen anyway...

I can't say for certain what elements Apple might be scanning for, if FaceID is even going to be implemented, but my guess is that it will search for any of several identifiable facial data points. So the motorcycle helmet issue would be solved by simply raising the face shield / visor and letting the phone scan the visible parts of your face (worst case would be area from your nose up to your forehead and from outer eye areas left to right. Plenty of space to get enough unique information without needing to see your entire head.

And if this is how it works, it's far better than TouchID, as you can keep your gloves on, lift up your visor and be good to go on the phone (assuming your gloves are touch capacitive).

 

[syedtutul]

I could not understand

 

[carpleror]

I can't say for certain what elements Apple might be scanning for, if FaceID is even going to be implemented, but my guess is that it will search for any of several identifiable facial data points. So the motorcycle helmet issue would be solved by simply raising the face shield / visor and letting the phone scan the visible parts of your face (worst case would be area from your nose up to your forehead and from outer eye areas left to right. Plenty of space to get enough unique information without needing to see your entire head.

And if this is how it works, it's far better than TouchID, as you can keep your gloves on, lift up your visor and be good to go on the phone (assuming your gloves are touch capacitive).

You're right, we don't know the exact specs, and it's entirely possible Apple could have created a totally advanced facial recognition software that's capable of accurately verifying a person's identity with such a small amount of data. However, I'm not putting my money on that. I don't doubt that someday we'll get to that point, I just don't think that day is in September. The tech is too new and unreliable with full faces at the moment, I can't imagine it being accurate enough right now with just your nose and eyes.

I mean, hell, the People tab of my Photos app has 4 different profiles for me alone (neutral face, smiling, smiling from an angle, and sunglasses), not counting all the photos it's missing.

 

[bobob]

I'll give you a situation, what if you're wearing a motorcycle helmet. You're lost, and you pull over on the side of the rode to get directions on your phone. You have to take off your helmet just to unlock your phone?

Idk if you've ever worn motorcycle helmet but they're a bitch to get on and off. Much easier to take off your glove, which you'd have to do to work the touch screen anyway...

It's hard to believe that a person capable of operating a motorcycle couldn't apply some lateral thinking and enter the four digit code in this specialized scenario.

 

[ilikewhey]

For it to work effectively, it needs to scan the "terrain" of your Exs' face and conclude that its the same girl who broke your heart.

thn its gonna be 50/50 cause they contour the crap out of their face

 

[carpleror]

It's hard to believe that a person capable of operating a motorcycle couldn't apply some lateral thinking and enter the four digit code in this specialized scenario.

You can, but that would require you to take off your glove. And once you glove is off, it would be easier to use a fingerprint. There will never be a situation where you CAN'T get into your phone. But the point is I'm identifying a situation where TouchID still has a use, that "FaceID" can't improve upon. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have FaceID, I'm arguing that it doesn't solve everything and that we still need TouchID. With your argument, it would be easier to just type a password in all the time, instead of lifting the phone up so it can take an accurate reading of your face...

 

[Exxhara]

Why are people so convinced that you have to hold up the phone to your face for face ID to work? Since they're adding infrared sensors and all that, can't faceID still work with the phone on the table and the infrared can scan your face upwards/while looking down to determine its you? And since its a 3D sensor mapping your face, it hits the key points that are unique to each person just like touchID so that even if you have makeup/getolder/glasses/contacts it can still tell its you and is capable of learning and adapting as you age/wear glasses/wear makeup and all that?

Wouldn't this be valid with a 3D sensor/infrared? Sorry if maybe its far fetched i'm not techy or anything.

 

[carpleror]

Why are people so convinced that you have to hold up the phone to your face for face ID to work? Since they're adding infrared sensors and all that, can't faceID still work with the phone on the table and the infrared can scan your face upwards/while looking down to determine its you? And since its a 3D sensor mapping your face, it hits the key points that are unique to each person just like touchID so that even if you have makeup/getolder/glasses/contacts it can still tell its you and is capable of learning and adapting as you age/wear glasses/wear makeup and all that?

Wouldn't this be valid with a 3D sensor/infrared? Sorry if maybe its far fetched i'm not techy or anything.

I would imagine the issue would be the phone would have to recognize that not only is it looking at a face, but would have to realize that said face is at an unusual and specific angle, and then be able to recognize at that angle that the face is in fact the person the phone belongs to. That's much more complicated than only having one angle a face can be verified at.

My question is, what happens if you're walking/running and can't hold the phone still?

 

[PJivan]

I would imagine the issue would be the phone would have to recognize that not only is it looking at a face, but would have to realize that said face is at an unusual and specific angle, and then be able to recognize at that angle that the face is in fact the person the phone belongs to. That's much more complicated than only having one angle a face can be verified at.

My question is, what happens if you're walking/running and can't hold the phone still?

This is getting insane....if you walk the camera can capture you perfectly (ever facetimed while walking?) if you run you probably don't use touch id since it mean hold the phone at the very bottom (not very safe for the phone) or hold it with both hands (not safe for you) FFS even while trekking hands can be so sweated that pin coe is necessary since touch id don't really work with wet fingers.

Now please tell me how many time you unlock your phone while running and please, please, please post a vide of it.

 

[carpleror]

This is getting insane....if you walk the camera can capture you perfectly (ever facetimed while walking?) if you run you probably don't use touch id since it mean hold the phone at the very bottom (not very safe for the phone) or hold it with both hands (not safe for you) FFS even while trekking hands can be so sweated that pin coe is necessary since touch id don't really work with wet fingers.

Now please tell me how many time you unlock your phone while running and please, please, please post a vide of it.

I run and unlock my phone all the time, on the treadmill, with TouchID. Also, FaceTiming while walking and trying to analyze and verify a moving face are two totally different tasks. One requires the phone to just turn the camera on and record, while the other needs to identify a moving object as a face and then verify that moving face accurately...

 

[jedifaka]

The Samsung crowd is already preparing their mockery for Apple copying their feature...

Yeah, no.
The Galaxy S8 is my absolute, all-time favorite gadget. It has rudimentary facial recognition, retinal scanning and a fingerprint reader. But its facial recognition is a non-starter and I didn't enable retinal scanning because it can famously be fooled by a high resolution photograph.
Facial recognition can be done much better. Microsoft Surface (and lots of other OEMS) use infrared and 3D cameras to increase accuracy and security. Apple has bought technology and is rumored to be buying parts that can do better still and include range-finding lasers with their IR cameras.
Maybe Apple hasn't invented anything here. But, as they have reliably in their history, they could well have integrated useful technologies from other sources into a seamless user experience no one else is going to have. And with their acquisitions, they will be sitting on a mountain of patents that could ensure nobody will be able to do mobile facial recognition as well for years to come.
So no, I don't think anyone can credibly say Apple's copied anything.
I think even the shrillest TouchID people are going to realize very quickly that fingerprint readers are hardly the ultimate evolution of biometric technology.

 

[Taipan]

Yeah, no.
So no, I don't think anyone can credibly say Apple's copied anything.
.

I didn't say anything about "credibility"

 

[bob24]

If Apple leaves touch ID out of this iteration of the iphone 8, i will pass until they work out how to imbed touch ID in the screen. Instead, i'll go with the iphone 7s if this is the case. Who wants to have to scan their face everytime they use Apple Pay. That'd be so annoying. Much rather use my fingerprint.

But since this is all speculation at this point, it really is pointless.

If they ditch Touch ID, I don't think it'll come back again in the near future (if they ditch it and then bring it back it would be an admission that they had replaced it by something inferior).

 

[ChrisCW11]

Great, so I have to wait in a line a Starbucks while all the hipsters in front of me need to take selfies and duck lips to buy anything.

The problem with facial recon for payments is you have to position the phone in a way to both see your face before swiping at the NFC receiver, a problem I don't have with a touch sensor phone.

I use a One Plus 5 now, and I can pull the phone out of my pocket, unlock and swipe to pay in one fell swoop and it takes a couple of seconds. I have had so many cashiers and people in line remark at how quick I have been able to pay with my phone.

However if I have to pull the phone out, unlock it, go to the payment app, click button to scan my face, and then swipe to pay, that is just ****ing annoying, period, for both the purchaser, cashier and all the people in line.

I am sure Apple will streamline that a little, but the idea of having to specifically hold the phone in a way to scan your face before doing anything is just slower.

 

[vault]

Could a 3D printed face fool the FaceID ?

IR-assisted cameras have multiple ways to detect wether you're alive, so I guess it depends on the implementation.

A four digit code is harder to break than holding up a photo of someone. I'll guarantee the very first day facial recognition will be "hacked" with a photo. I'm sure Apple will claim to have some sort of 3D recognition in the camera to "prevent" that, but it will be bypassed with lightning speed.

Show me a proof of Windows Hello face recognition being bypassed with a photo.

 

[outskirtsofinfinity]

Like someone pointed out, "Pearl" may actually refer to teeth. While checking out at the grocery store, you simply put the phone up to your mouth (horizontally), bite down, and the payment goes through, accompanied by the usual little chime. It'll look and feel weird for a while, but no weirder than holding it up to your face for a face scan, I suppose...

 

[jedifaka]

I run and unlock my phone all the time, on the treadmill, with TouchID. Also, FaceTiming while walking and trying to analyze and verify a moving face are two totally different tasks. One requires the phone to just turn the camera on and record, while the other needs to identify a moving object as a face and then verify that moving face accurately...

Dude: You personally should never, ever buy a phone without a fingerprint scanner. You obviously need it.

 

[farewelwilliams]

So if I am doing winter sports, I am going to have to take off my face protection rather than just taking off a glove? And if it's anything like Touch ID, I will have to have a face profile for day, night, winter, summer, dry, humid, shave day, non-shave day, good mood, bad mood, sunglasses, no sunglasses, etc. Oh but wait, I'm sure we'll be limited to five profiles.

you punch in your 4 or 6 digit pin if FaceID doesn't work. that's what it currently does when touch id doesn't work for me while using Apple Pay

 

[kramerdude]

You don't think they've thought of that? What if you didn't ever again have to hear Siri saying "You'll have to unlock your iPhone first"?

The existing iPhone already has a rudimentary version of voice identification for Hey Siri activation. The next iPhone can very well have a few different levels of security: Voice ID for Siri requests, Face ID for access to unlocking the screen, and Retina ID for ApplePay payments.

Again, the phone is in my pocket, so "hey Siri" does not work. The camera can't see me, and the mic can't hear me. Tried it today just to double check. I've got no problem adding a facial recognition protocol, I just hope TouchID sticks around, for safety when I'm driving.