iPhone 8 Facial Recognition Will Likely Work With Apple Pay According to HomePod Firmware

[PlainviewX]

This was a common sense conclusion.

Traditional contactless credit cards already worked without any authentication.

Apple Pay currently works with an insecure 4 digit passcode.

Why would Apple Pay not work with enhanced facial recognition? Banks should be lining up to agree to Face ID.

A four digit code is harder to break than holding up a photo of someone. I'll guarantee the very first day facial recognition will be "hacked" with a photo. I'm sure Apple will claim to have some sort of 3D recognition in the camera to "prevent" that, but it will be bypassed with lightning speed.

 

[Dave245]

A four digit code is harder to break than holding up a photo of someone. I'll guarantee the very first day facial recognition will be "hacked" with a photo. I'm sure Apple will claim to have some sort of 3D recognition in the camera to "prevent" that, but it will be bypassed with lightning speed.

That's something you can't guarantee unless you work for Apple. They have been working on this for many years and I'm sure they will have thought about this aspect, time will tell.

 

[PlainviewX]

That's something you can't guarantee unless you work for Apple. They have been working on this for many years and I'm sure they will have thought about this aspect, time will tell.

Time will tell, but facial recognition, through single camera/software only, has proved to be highly fallible. Just look at the Galaxy as an example. Apple will need a minimum of two cameras on the front or a camera and one of the various 3D sensors, to even entertain it being more secure than a four digit code/multiple try limit security wall.

 

[Dave245]

Time will tell, but facial recognition, through single camera/software only, has proved to be highly fallible. Just look at the Galaxy as an example. Apple will need a minimum of two cameras on the front or a camera and one of the various 3D sensors, to even entertain it being more secure than a four digit code/multiple try limit security wall.

I don't know much about the technology but it seems Apple have been working on it for a while http://bgr.com/2017/07/13/iphone-8-features-3d-facial-recognition/

 

[sunny2k1]

Based on things I'm hearing that the banking industry is seemingly sceptical regarding FaceID or similar technologies for payment authorisation. I can see a lot of banks pulling out of ApplePay or not allowing payments via iPhone with such a technology until Apple provides security as though as TouchID which is pretty much proven to be secure (yeah, I know it is not 100% secure).

 

[PlainviewX]

I don't know much about the technology but it seems Apple have been working on it for a while http://bgr.com/2017/07/13/iphone-8-features-3d-facial-recognition/

Working on something a long time doesn't guarantee it will be great and Apple is not exempt from this.

 

[MH01]

so does that mean I have to place the phone one the contactless device and at the same time stare at the camera.....awesome user experience.

 

[Dave245]

Working on something a long time doesn't guarantee it will be great and Apple is not exempt from this.

They usually do make great things, their not exempt from mistakes and or problems but they are usually the ones to do something right! Touch ID as an example, fingerprint readers were around a while before but Touch ID made it great. Apple doesn't tend to do something until they know they can get it right, it's the reason why they are not usually the first to do something.

 

[MH01]

They just introduced Touch ID into the MacBook line so why the hell would they be now trying to eliminate it?

Well they removed the headphone jack from their phones and continue to have it on their MacBooks..... seems like they are just throwing stuff at a wall these days to see what sticks....... a master plan I am not seeing, its just profit under cook

 

[recoil80]

so does that mean I have to place the phone one the contactless device and at the same time stare at the camera.....awesome user experience.

It can't work this way.
I guess it would be similar to Apple Watch, you double tap and is ready to go. With FaceID you unlock the phone, enter Wallet then place the phone near the reader to pay and you have an amount of seconds before the authentication expires

 

[kdarling]

So I'll be able to transfer money to my account just by holding my phone to someone's face?

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Time will tell, but facial recognition, through single camera/software only, has proved to be highly fallible. Just look at the Galaxy as an example.

No, the Galaxy is not a valid example. Its facial recognition was not intended to be secure, and Samsung says so to the user.

What about a bright environmental, where the sun emits more infrared than the phone. The IR sensors will receive waaaay to many noise signals...

No different than any other camera adjusting for ambient light. Heck, it's free extra illumination.

A four digit code is harder to break than holding up a photo of someone. I'll guarantee the very first day facial recognition will be "hacked" with a photo.

It's much easier to notice someone holding a piece of paper in front of their face while trying to pay for something, than to catch someone using a fake fingerprint. Yet the latter never bothered anyone.

They would need a fully 3D bust of your head to do it (if it’s only using VERY basic IR 3D scanning).

And this.

 

[PlainviewX]

They usually do make great things, their not exempt from mistakes and or problems but they are usually the ones to do something right! Touch ID as an example, fingerprint readers were around a while before but Touch ID made it great. Apple doesn't tend to do something until they know they can get it right, it's the reason why they are not usually the first to do something.

I just don't see Apple making something as secure as a fingerprint reader/4 digit code. Then again, if they don't care about price, they could pull it off. I'm very skeptical.
[doublepost=1501764434][/doublepost]

It's much easier to notice someone holding a piece of paper in front of their face while trying to pay for something, than to catch someone using a fake fingerprint. Yet the latter never bothered anyone.

Apple pay works beyond paying in person.....

 

[bobob]

They would need a fully 3D bust of your head to do it

Pay no attention to the person behind the zipper.

 

[Dave245]

Well they removed the headphone jack from their phones and continue to have it on their MacBooks..... seems like they are just throwing stuff at a wall these days to see what sticks....... a master plan I am not seeing, its just profit under cook

The headphone jack on the iPhone went away because it's not really needed with wireless earphones, but on the Mac people use it for editing purposes whether that's audio or video.
[doublepost=1501764900][/doublepost]

Pay no attention to the person behind the zipper.

ha ha ha, that wouldn't work by looking at the patents from Apple "Face ID" looks at features of a persons face along with structure of bones and so on. The only thing that may work would be a VERY high quality copy of a persons head like at madame tussaud's and even then i don't know if that would work the issue at the moment is that we just don't know everything that Apple is going to announce, they know who secure Touch ID is and I'm sure they will want the same with "Face ID" but only time will tell.

 

[jmgregory1]

If you think of a face in the same way as a fingerprint, there are far more data points of differentiation with a face than a fingerprint. As long as Apple can scan for depth of field, taking measurements of distance of say nose tip to eyeball, right ear to left ear, center of eye to center of eye, etc., as well as more basic conditions like skin color, eye color, tracking moles or other skin conditions, they'll have far more data to prove someone is who they say they are than just the lines in a fingerprint.

I'm sure someone might be able to create a 3D print of a bust of someone and paint it to break through the security, but that's just not going to be what anyone should be concerned with as a normal threat.

 

[Juicy Box]

Apple has been rumored to be developing facial scanning technology for years, in addition to them buying multiple facial recognition companies like RealFace (2017), Emotient (2016), Faceshift (2015), and Polar Rose (2010). I'm sure this was something that has been on the road map for quite some time and I would be willing to bet TouchID under the display was actually the plan B, not the other way around. Secure facial recognition would be much harder to implement than a fingerprint sensor due to the advanced algorithms that would be needed, unlike the Galaxy S8's version that could be bypassed by a photo.

You might be right, but I doubt it. All the rumors are saying that Apple is rushing for a solution to the Touch ID issue.

 

[DDustiNN]

I find it funny, that no one, no website, no apple-community commentator - explores the angle and thoughts on "what if this leak is a hoax, a purposely planted misinformation from Apple"...? to throw us all off course... or throw the competition off course..?

Because people say that every year, with every new iPhone feature they don't like, and it never turns out to be true.

Ever.

It's a silly idea and a waste of time.

 

[Pike R. Alpha]

I would like to add that dyld_shared_cache_arm64 not only includes references to:

iPhone8,1
iPhone8,2
iPhone8,3
iPhone8,4
iPhone8,5
iPhone8,6
iPhone8,7
iPhone8,8
iPhone8,9

But also:

iPhone9,1
iPhone9,2
iPhone9,3
iPhone9,4
iPhone9,5
iPhone9,6
iPhone9,7
iPhone9,8
iPhone9,9

iPhone10,1
iPhone10,2
iPhone10,3
iPhone10,4
iPhone10,5
iPhone10,6
iPhone10,7
iPhone10,8

Meaning that not all features will be used on the next iPhone...

 

[kdarling]

I'm sure someone might be able to create a 3D print of a bust of someone and paint it to break through the security, but that's just not going to be what anyone should be concerned with as a normal threat.

If the sensor is also looking for temperature regions in the face, a simple bust wouldn't work.

It would have to be fancier, like those fake fingers with pulsing "blood" used to attack more sophisticated fingerprint readers.

 

[bobob]

If you think of a face in the same way as a fingerprint, there are far more data points of differentiation with a face than a fingerprint. As long as Apple can scan for depth of field, taking measurements of distance of say nose tip to eyeball, right ear to left ear, center of eye to center of eye, etc., as well as more basic conditions like skin color, eye color, tracking moles or other skin conditions, they'll have far more data to prove someone is who they say they are than just the lines in a fingerprint.

Good analysis.

Fingerprints aren't the be all and end all of individual identification, they are so well known and helpful to law enforcement because we leave them behind on crime scene surfaces.

 

[Juicy Box]

Lol, almost NOBODY used passcodes back then for the like 200+ times you unlock your phone each day... what a nuisance! People just used “slide to unlock”.
There was basically: pre 5S where the overwhelming majority had unsecure phones; and post 5S where almost everyone has an incredibly secure phone.

I cant speak for everyone else, but I didn't use a passcode on my phone for a while (started using an iPhone in 2007), but I started to when apps made it convenient to use a passcode to open them instead of typing a long password.

One of those apps is the Findmyfriends app. Typing my long complicated email password was getting annoying, it was much easier to enable the passcode, and just use that.

Since so many apps are tied to the phone security now, I think many people that did not use a passcode before Touch ID, would use a passcode now. If their Touch ID was removed.

 

[Tech198]

Secure is only as good as it needs to be "per user" Its good that iPhone 8 has better form and new tech, but you won't see me getting one, mainly because TouchID is secure enough for what i need a phone for....... No point is getting a phone for the sake of getting one,, unless my previous one dies..

A little common sense goes a long way.

 

[DoctorDoctor]

Will likely work ??? If there is no Touch ID then there is no likely. It will work with it.

 

[KUKitch]

I do love TouchID and Apple Pay, and it's hard to conceive just how this will work in practice for payments - but I'm willing to see how it's actually set up (if in fact it's real) before making my own judgement. At least given the typical angle I find myself using my phone for contactless payments (when I don't use my watch anyway), I can see where it might be able to view my face while paying - though it still seems clear that it could be odd.

 

[NBAasDOGG]

FaceID is fine as long it give facials