iPhone App Sideloading Coming to Users in the EU in First Half of 2024

[Analog Kid]

You had the illusion of control and security while most top 50 apps are leaky with compromised security and privacy. Example of Facebook privacy card so many apps are doing the same.

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Remember when Apple introduced that simple report? Companies freaked out! Google didn't update certain apps for what felt like a year, Meta still whines about it. Will Apple have the power to force apps to disclose this information and keep them in its ecosystem in the future? Unlikely...

 

[5987184]

The beginning of the end.

 

[Analog Kid]

I do, because people aren't going to bother installing another App Store to install Facebook and the like. Meta will just lose market share, and a lot of it.

In addition, their apps would still be sandboxed the same as they currently are, regardless of where they came from.

It's amazing how quick the proponents of this regulation are to insist that nobody is going to do anything different because of it...

 

[WarmWinterHat]

It's amazing how quick the proponents of this regulation are to insist that nobody is going to do anything different because of it...

Because 90% are not, just like on Android.

Almost no one (on Android) uses anything other than the official Play store. the iPhone will be no different. The majority doesn't even know alternate app stores are available.

Edit: If we're lucky, something will change..Maybe the official Apple App store will stop being a trash-can full of garbage scam games and junk overpriced nonsense. For every one good app on there, there are a dozen copies and crap... and they make it hard to find anything except promoted apps. It's one ot the reasons I haven't so much as bought a new app in over a year, and I never download anything except app updates.

Apple's App store SUCKS, and it needs some real competition, on it's own turf.

 

[JonathanX64]

Good. About time iPhone stopped being a useless calculator.

Sideloading is a great reason to upgrade from iPhone X for those who haven't yet, and great reason to finally try iOS ecosystem for people with normal capable smartphones.

 

[Analog Kid]

Because 90% are not, just like on Android.

Almost no one (on Android) uses anything other than the official Play store. the iPhone will be no different. The majority doesn't even know alternate app stores are available.

Edit: If we're lucky, something will change..Maybe the official Apple App store will stop being a trash-can full of garbage scam games and junk overpriced nonsense. For every one good app on there, there are a dozen copies and crap... and they make it hard to find anything except promoted apps. It's one ot the reasons I haven't so much as bought a new app in over a year, and I never download anything except app updates.

Apple's App store SUCKS, and it needs some real competition, on it's own turf.

You realize that if no one uses it, there is no competition, right? Is the Play Store less of a cesspool? If every app came from it's own vendor's store, would we expect it to be less cess-y?

This all has a very Yogi Berra sound to it: "So many people did exactly what they used to and it changed the world!"

 

[JonathanX64]

Do you think Meta is going to hang around on the App Store? As soon as they can sidestep Apple's privacy protections, they'll do it.

Why Apple's privacy protections are even tied to the App Store in the first place?

Operating system must be secure by itself, and not because some humans lazily check all the submissions to the single source of third-party applications for that system.

 

[WarmWinterHat]

You realize that if no one uses it, there is no competition, right? Is the Play Store less of a cesspool? If every app came from it's own vendor's store, would we expect it to be less cess-y?

This all has a very Yogi Berra sound to it: "So many people did exactly what they used to and it changed the world!"

I don't live in the EU, so none of this will apply to me either way, but I'll ask.. What can be done to clean up Apple's App Store? As I said, it's a garbage-can, and they seem to have zero interest in fixing it.

I don't care about the 30% (or 15%, for some).

 

[BaldiMac]

The apps shown are free with added functionality not currently available. And a counter point to your issue. I’m just showing that it already was like that and you still have the ability to use the gated garden exclusively.

That's just a euphemism for pirated. Obviously, any rational person would understand that a small amount of piracy doesn't change the fact that a large amount of piracy is bad.

Sure, but it’s the OS level security that makes sure that privacy is respected by requiring permission or denying access for other information deemed privileged.

That doesn't change the fact that App Store review also enforces other privacy protections, such as the privacy label.

Well to that I provide you this legal wrench.
Under article 26&28

2. Providers of online platform shall not present advertisements on their interface based on profiling as defined in Article 4, point (4), of Regulation (EU) 2016/679 using personal data of the recipient of the service when they are aware with reasonable certainty that the recipient of the service is a minor.
3. Providers of online platforms shall not present advertisements to recipients of the service based on profiling as defined in Article 4, point (4), of Regulation (EU) 2016/679 using special categories of personal data referred to in Article 9(1) of Regulation (EU) 2016/679.

And this funny point (69)

…providers of online platforms should not present advertisements based on profiling as defined in Article 4, point (4), of Regulation (EU) 2016/679, using special categories of personal data referred to in Article 9(1) of that Regulation, including by using profiling categories based on those special categories. This prohibition is without prejudice to the obligations applicable to providers of online platforms or any other service provider or advertiser involved in the dissemination of the advertisements under Union law on protection of personal data.

That's not a legal wrench or funny point so much as it is irrelevant to the point I made about variable pricing schemes.

 

[genovelle]

Just hoping Apple doesn’t punish everyone to pressurize them to abolish sideloading.

The cost will increase significantly for small developers

 

[genovelle]

Thank you, EU!

We have been allowed to use our Macs this way since the classic Mac OS was released in 1984. Posing the same benefits and potential risks as we are about to finally get on our phones.

The difference is Mac users tend to be more sophisticated users while allowing unvetted apps on a cellphone the very unsophisticated users believe is safe is a recipe for disaster.

 

[BaldiMac]

I don't live in the EU, so none of this will apply to me either way, but I'll ask.. What can be done to clean up Apple's App Store? As I said, it's a garbage-can, and they seem to have zero interest in fixing it.

I don't care about the 30% (or 15%, for some).

This is one of those "The App Store is the worst, except for all the others" kind of comments. People forget how much better the App Store is than what came before it for app discovery.

I'd love to see apps vetted by Apple, but curated by third-parties for commissions, within the App Store. The App Store is too big for Apple to curate on their own.

 

[WarmWinterHat]

I'd love to see apps vetted by Apple, but curated by third-parties for commissions, within the App Store. The App Store is too big for Apple to curate on their own.

That's a pretty good idea!

 

[Analog Kid]

I don't live in the EU, so none of this will apply to me either way, but I'll ask.. What can be done to clean up Apple's App Store? As I said, it's a garbage-can, and they seem to have zero interest in fixing it.

I expect it will apply to all of us sooner rather than later.

As far as cleaning up the App Store, I think it’s the artifact of how people expect Apple to behave. It’s been that way from the beginning when you had dozens of fart apps to choose from, because one wasn’t enough. People want Apple to be open to small devs so watch every rule decision like a hawk to ensure everything is enforced without bias.

Your argument though seems to be that we need more competition among app stores to ensure we have less competition among apps…

 

[Analog Kid]

This is one of those "The App Store is the worst, except for all the others" kind of comments. People forget how much better the App Store is than what came before it for app discovery.

I'd love to see apps vetted by Apple, but curated by third-parties for commissions, within the App Store. The App Store is too big for Apple to curate on their own.

Does Apple Music still do things like celebrity playlists?

To a certain extent, things like TouchArcade perform a service like this, but I guess not within the store….

 

[webkit]

Ok, so they buy more in that ecosystem that the EU is now dismantling.

As we've established, they likely won't be able to get all their apps from the AppStore, and there's no indication that when operating in an Android like world they won't behave more like Android buyers and simply not buy as much for as much.

The simplest assumption to make is that when a system is made more like Android that people will behave more like Android users.

Users are likely to be able to get as many of the same apps in Apple's App Store as they do now, at least for a while. I think a more likely scenario would see developers offering their apps multiple ways including in Apple's App Store. Only if alternatives prove to be significantly better for them might developers start to abandon the App Store. The added competition and risk of losing customers (users and/or developers) can help push Apple to up their game to reduce the chance of that happening thereby potentially making their App Store a better experience.

As far as the Android vs. iOS world is concerned, a reason iOS users buy more apps is because iOS users tend to wealthier than Android users. That will presumably still be true after sideloading and alternative app stores are allowed on iPhones.

 

[The Phazer]

Ok, I did. You're trying to save me and the world from the decisions I make. Thank you, but I can climb out of this tree just fine on my own.

Still never mentioned you. But with this level of reading comprehension then I can see why you're so muddled.

That's a long stretch to make. There is no monopoly. Apple has barely 30% market share in the EU.

A monopoly isn't required to cause harm, just to be able to materially affect the market, and Apple can.

Wow... You sure it shouldn't be an execution offense, given how it's ruining the whole world and all?

The death sentence is visited upon those who are victim to Apple's code signing restrictions - the political prisoners in China murdered by the state, and the sex workers killed as they are unable to work safely due to internet wide restrictions on services (even if they have never used an Apple device in their lives) that are primarily motivated by Apple's restrictions (as we know because multiple major app developers have explicitly said - Instagram founder Kevin Systrom for example https://www.businessinsider.com/why-instagram-bans-freethenipple-2015-9?r=UK&IR=T).

 

[The Phazer]

It just cracks me up the number of you who think this legislation is absolutely necessary while saying it will amount to little no change. I mean, do you even sound these arguments out to yourself before you make them?

This legislation is neccessary, but it't not sufficient - it's a first step to splitting Apple up and banning hardware manufacturers from owning operating systems, and neither vendors owning third party software distribution platforms.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Hmmm... Compromised cert is all you need... If anything said "this is a good idea, let's do more of it!" it's the use of a compromised cert. Are any globally respected development houses using compromised certificates to get on people's devices? Do the places one is going to get these tweaked apps look in any way shady, perhaps suggesting they're not fully authorized? Can Apple shut it down by revoking the certificate?

Well they aren’t compromised, but developers and companies sell the spots they have in their enterprise certificates online.
They are just not used for their intended purpose. And You can just buy the ability to sign apps directly from other people and companies for a few bucks. Or just use a developer license for 99$ a year to do the same thing.

Not much Apple can do unless the company reports without risking breaking a lot of things.
And it as its more profitable to just reapply and purchase it for 300$ and sell hundreds or thousands of spots for a few bucks if caught

Google also abused its Apple developer certificate to collect iOS user data - Help Net Security

It turns out that Google, like Facebook, abused its Apple Enterprise Developer Certificate to distribute a data collection app to iOS users.

www.helpnetsecurity.com

It’s been a long standing problem for many years.

"Kids can buy heroin in half a dozen alleyways" isn't an argument for "so let's just make it available in the cafeteria".

Sure but irrelevant when we are talking about your property rights conducting completly legal business transactions.

Again, if you want fewer safeguards and a more confusing ecosystem, that's fine. It's there, go get it. Having the government tell me I have to live in that system is wrong.

Well you already live in it. What’s the extra safeguards being removed?

Would it not be more secure if we had one certificate for AppStore apps, a separate certificate for side loaded apps verified by Apple and unverified for everything else?

And users not having the ability to install unverified apps unless they change it?

I didn't say it was.


Sigh. But they can try to force interoperability with it.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/google-european-telecoms-giants-call-on-eu-to-force-open-imessage.2410274/

Yea, but perhaps read it. The DMA requires interoperability, it doesn’t say how you implement it, but that you provide the technical means to be interoperable. It doesn’t say googles protocol should be used, and its up to the market to work out a solution to comply.

Like I said, the DMA is focused on the wrong things.

Well seems to be weird as I can’t see why it should focus on the wrong thing as you have mentioned.

Why any government should ever care if a company is a monopoly instead of looking at the problematic behaviour that is causing the harm.

Such as what is of such importance if iOS or android have more alternatives competitors? Is it not more relevant to look at what part of the actual interaction interrupt the bulk of establishment of independent consenting businesses contract between undertakers and consumers uninterrupted, and remove the middleman.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Remember when Apple introduced that simple report? Companies freaked out! Google didn't update certain apps for what felt like a year, Meta still whines about it. Will Apple have the power to force apps to disclose this information and keep them in its ecosystem in the future? Unlikely...

Well EU are able to, especially considering they loved apples concept and just takes it further.

 

[Analog Kid]

Users are likely to be able to get as many of the same apps in Apple's App Store as they do now

Noting your use of "many" rather than "all" or even "most".

I think a more likely scenario would see developers offering their apps multiple ways including in Apple's App Store.

Nothing saves money for a developer like supporting multiple outlets...

As far as the Android vs. iOS world is concerned, a reason iOS users buy more apps is because iOS users tend to wealthier than Android users. That will presumably still be true after sideloading and alternative app stores are allowed on iPhones.

Why would wealthier people prefer iOS? Perhaps because of the experience? Wealthier people tend to prefer curated experiences, so with that gone now, so why would you expect people to keep spending as much?

The added competition and risk of losing customers (users and/or developers) can help push Apple to up their game to reduce the chance of that happening thereby potentially making their App Store a better experience.

Will they be allowed to? I don't mean this rhetorically. Jobs specifically described the App Store as a way to make the app buying experience easier and more secure for buyers and sellers. Making it easier in the ways they did is now illegal. What's the motivation to try again if the government is just going to find another reason to cut them off at the knees?

 

[Analog Kid]

Still never mentioned you.

Uh...

You are welcome to make your life worse. The point is that your purchasing decisions with Apple harm people who don't buy iOS devices.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That's just a euphemism for pirated. Obviously, any rational person would understand that a small amount of piracy doesn't change the fact that a large amount of piracy is bad.

Doesn’t change the fact of the matter it’s used for completely legitimate things unrelated to piracy.

We don’t remove everyone’s legal right because some abuse it

That doesn't change the fact that App Store review also enforces other privacy protections, such as the privacy label.

Nothing prevents it from being legally enforced for everyone. Apples review process isn’t required

That's not a legal wrench or funny point so much as it is irrelevant to the point I made about variable pricing schemes.

Well it absolutely does in regards to targeted marketing. considering its from the DSA and is applied to 100% of service providers contrary to the DMA that only targets gatekeepers with enough revenue and user base.

It just cracks me up the number of you who think this legislation is absolutely necessary while saying it will amount to little no change. I mean, do you even sound these arguments out to yourself before you make them?

Oh it will do a lot, not the things you and some people think it should do.

You don’t think a juggernaut like steam couldn’t steamroll the iOS AppStore exactly how they did with the Mac Appstore? Much more business and consumer friendly with regards to what you can provide in a game and associated services to make it easy to facilitate communication between users and developers?

The one Epic can’t even bribe developers to abandon?

You don’t think developers having the ability to completely skip apples IAP service and use the Apple Pay system instead with no fees?

 

[JeMeCasse]

I really hope this feature becomes available globally.

 

[BaldiMac]

Doesn’t change the fact of the matter it’s used for completely legitimate things unrelated to piracy.

We don’t remove everyone’s legal right because some abuse it

Nothing prevents it from being legally enforced for everyone. Apples review process isn’t required

Well it absolutely does in regards to targeted marketing. considering its from the DSA and is applied to 100% of service providers contrary to the DMA that only targets gatekeepers with enough revenue and user base.

Not a single one of theses responses has anything to do with what I said.