iPod Mini in the Media and on TV?

[nagromme]

No need for us to "guess" on Apple's profits/margins on the minis... Apple's decision was based on the real numbers you may be sure

The miniaturized hard disks cost more per GB than the ones in the bigger ipods. The HD makers, and Apple, are betting that small physical size has value for some people. I agree.

 

[agentkow]

In addition to the when the first iPod came out, all this also reminds me of when we all realized that the 3rd generation iPod would have buttons ABOVE the scroll wheel.

Oh the horror! How could we ever reach those buttons so far away?

Anyway, my point is most people will get over it, and its funny to read old things.

 

[frankly]

Originally posted by iggyb
First off, I've stated it's what I think, and not stating this as absolute fact. I have anecdotal evidence at best. You don't seem to get that.

That said, those same entire departments of people with degrees and experience produced the Cube, which was a financial failure. How about those Titanium Powerbooks that had poor wireless reception? Oh no, that can't be! They have teams of professionals, therefore they can never make that mistake!

You have third-party mice on ALL your Macs. I have a multi-button mouse on mine. The majority of my Mac-using friends use them too. That doesn't tell you something?

Again, anecdotal evidence, so don't take this as a statement that I believe all people are like this....but I was in CompUSA, a sales rep was showing this lady a 17" iMac (when it was brand new). When she was giving it a test drive in Word, she asked the employee, "where's the scroll wheel?". The rep then said there wasn't one, and proceeded to talk about the good design of the one-button mouse. However, she seemed to lose interest. Now, did she walk out of there saying "I won't ever buy a Mac, because it only has a one-button mouse!"? Doubtful. But her experience was not what she would have wanted. That's what I'm talking about.

In any case, I don't have evidence that they're losing sales, and you don't have evidence that they're NOT losing sales. Again, it's what I THINK.

BUT - I'm not an entire department filled with experts and degrees. I guess using that logic, I should never criticize government decisions, or my favorite football team for questionable draft choices. DON'T QUESTION THE EXPERTS!

First, I do get that you are providing anecdotal evidence which is why your post holds so little weight.

Second, when you speak of the Cube and Airport reception you are speaking of huge projects and grandious items. We were talking about a mouse and you seem to think that simply changing the mouse that comes with a multi-thousand dollar machine is going to increase Apple's market share. Again, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

You forgot to include the biggest part of my point in your observation of who has third party mice. I have a third party mouse for my PC as well and so do ALL of my friends that have PCs. That is my point. Everyone that cares buys a third party mouse regardless of what their machine comes with.

Since you want to provide even more anecdotal comparisons let me respond. When Donovan McNabb was chosen in the first round for the Philadelphia Eagles five years ago he was booed by the fans in attendance and it was talked about as the most disappointing draft pick they could have made. The fans wanted them to pick running back Ricky Williams. Well, let's see. Donovan McNabb has led the Eagles to the NFC championship game 3 years in a row now and Ricky Williams has led his teams exactly nowhere.

I did not say that you shouldn't criticize. That is perfectly fine. Not only do I prefer a third party mouse but I actually don't like Apple's mouse even if I were using it for only one button. What I did say it that it is very funny when you claim that they would increase their market share by changing the mouse that comes with the computer. I think that is very funny.

Later, Frank

 

[eazyway]

Originally posted by Spades
My problem is that I was lead to believe I would soon be buying an affordable iPod, and instead I was given yet another product outside my price range.

A week ago I was hoping to spend $150 on a new iPod, but was ready to go up to $200. When Jobs said they were going after the high-end flash player, priced from $100 to $200, I was ready to whip out the credit card. And then, he announced the $249 price. So much for the afforadble iPod. My problem is that we were promised a competitor to high-end flash players, but delivered something in a completely different niche. I'm no marketing expert, but the flash market strikes me as very much a price sensitive market. This makes me doubtful that the mini will make a large dent in the high-end flash market. It'll grab people from the $200 players, but at that level price is less of a concern. That still leaves most of that $100 to $200 range untouched.

The mini looks good. The specs look good. I think it's going to do fine. I'm just doubtful it will touch more than 5% of that 31% Jobs claims they're after.

Why would you ever think Apple will produce low end products. The cannot afford to. With the design requirements of Apple product low end is not an option. Design is too important.

High end flash is from at least $169 up to $299. Thus the mini falls into the area. Be it at the high end. It has many pluses. But only 25 min skip protection. ( for 90% this is fine but those who run 10k + it is a little low)

Adding an extra 5 % to their market share is a large impact. That would amount to selling an extra 200,000+ iPod minis in the first year. I am sure any company would take that.

 

[imtechr]

I think by looking at all of this I've come to the conclusion that Apple is on the mark with the style and size of the mini. I know a LOT of people who would buy it "because its...(insert color here)". There are lots of companies who would never take such risks! They would just make a product that looked boring and then attempt to market it a a cool product. Conclusion: cool products just are, and this is a cool product.

 

[frankly]

Originally posted by phantompigger
I have one of the original iPods (5GB), and I've never filled it completely. I rarely transfer my entire music library to it; instead, I just bring over certain playlists. As a result, I have little interest in a 40, 20 or even a 15GB iPod.

That said, I cannot help but compare the iPod mini's price to that of the 15GB iPod. Just $50 difference. That's all. Even if I don't need the 11GB, I can clearly see the value in it. It's worth the extra $50.

Hey, if money was no object, I'd be buying these babies for everyone in my family. Unfortunately, I can't afford to pay a premium for prettiness.

pp

Did you even read what you wrote before you submitted this? You state in one paragraph that you do not even fill your 5GB model and have little interest in a 15GB iPod. Then, in the very next paragraph you say that even if you don't need the 11GB it is worth the extra $50. What?????????

Does that make sense to you? Even if you are not going to use the extra capacity paying extra money for it is worth it to you.

Then you say that you can't afford to pay a premium for prettiness. You wouldn't be paying a premium for prettiness. You'd be paying LESS

Yes, that's right, $249 is LESS than $299 and it is much LESS than the $399 paid for an original 5GB.

That is what I can't understand. Once you decide that capacity is not important to you the iPod mini is actually a better device with features that the iPod does not have and it costs less.

Later, Frank

 

[ITR 81]

Originally posted by eazyway


Adding an extra 5 % to their market share is a large impact. That would amount to selling an extra 200,000+ iPod minis in the first year. I am sure any company would take that.

Actually Apple would gain around 31% of the high-end flash market if it dominated.

I feel Apple will dominate the whole market in about 5 yrs.

2 yrs from now this same iPod mini could be selling for $99.99 or less.

 

[frankly]

Originally posted by Spades
My problem is that I was lead to believe I would soon be buying an affordable iPod, and instead I was given yet another product outside my price range.

Who led you to believe this???

Later, Frank

 

[macmax]

ARN....SOMEONE.....Question

i only want it to use it as my stereo in my car.

What do i need???

Can i make it work with it so i don't use any more disks???

I don't want a mp3 stereo for the car, the Ipod or mini would give me great flexibility.

Thanks

 

[iggyb]

Re: ARN....SOMEONE.....Question

Originally posted by macmax
i only want it to use it as my stereo in my car.

What do i need???

Can i make it work with it so i don't use any more disks???

I don't want a mp3 stereo for the car, the Ipod or mini would give me great flexibility.

Thanks

Do you have a cassette player in your car? If so, grab one of those tape adapters, plug the tape in the deck, the jack into the iPod, and you're good to go!

If not, and you don't have a jack input for the car stereo, it may need some real tweaking...

 

[geerlingguy]

Originally posted by punter
very funny! Yeah the mini ipods are a solid product. Although they are more expensive then I'd like to pay, as my boss always says "after you set the initial price, it can only go down from there".

Lets hope that by next ski season they are 50 or 80 bucks cheaper, and then i'll own one for sure!

PS good work arn. I echo the posts above.

Remember the LCD iMac... original price $1699 (luckily I bought at this price), then one month later changed to $1799 (yikes!)

I'm not saying that the iPod mini will raise in price, but it is never an impossibility

 

[croasmun]

I think Spades is right on here. Certainly within the flow of the keynote, the pricing of the mini made no sense. Jobs clearly defined the market they were going to enter and, it seems, with the $249 price-tag he missed it. Yes, the specs are clearly better than the other devices in that market. His presentation was quite successful in that regard. However, what Apple hates to admit is that quite often a purchase decision begins with a dollar amount. "I want a portable music player; I've got X number of dollars to spend on it." We can all wish that this weren't the case, but the fact of life is that consumers are looking for the best product at their particular price point, not the best product or even the best features-to-price ratio. The price point is usually the beginning of the search, at least once the consumer has some idea of what the field looks like. The disappointment at least for this Mac fan and keynote-watcher was that it seemed like Jobs set us up that he was targeting a particular market, which in my mind means a particular price point, and then delivered a product above the price point and therefore missing the market. It's not like the consumers in the high-end flash market have been saying "Gee, I'd buy an iPod, but the capacity is too darn big..." Maybe they have been saying "I'd buy an iPod, but the physical size is too big," but Jobs didn't list that in his feature comparison! From Job's own presentation it seemed like Apple was going to reach the mid-range market because it had reduced the feature set of it's high-end product--as if the consumers were waiting for a lower-end product, rather than a lower-end price...

That said, the mini may well succeed for all the reasons well-outlined in this thread. Perhaps the form-factor is the key aspect of the product that will make it sell. If so, from the keynote, it seems that Jobs will be surprised. He thought it was the reduced feature set and the $50 discount that was going to make them fly off the shelves.

I think it was the logic of Job's pitch that brought about the rash of early criticism from Mac geeks like us who watched his presentation.

My 2 cents... or maybe that was 3 cents.

 

[macmax]

Re: Re: ARN....SOMEONE.....Question

Originally posted by iggyb
Do you have a cassette player in your car? If so, grab one of those tape adapters, plug the tape in the deck, the jack into the iPod, and you're good to go!

If not, and you don't have a jack input for the car stereo, it may need some real tweaking...

hey thanks , cool of you to reply so soon.
Well, yes i can get one.

I am coming back to Florida in march and i will be buying me a mini and that is gonna be it, no more cds, hehehheheh.
thanks again

 

[phantompigger]

Originally posted by frankly
Did you even read what you wrote before you submitted this? You state in one paragraph that you do not even fill your 5GB model and have little interest in a 15GB iPod. Then, in the very next paragraph you say that even if you don't need the 11GB it is worth the extra $50. What?????????

Um, thanks for freaking out. I think I made it quite clear that although I don't need the extra space, I can see that the 15GB iPod provides much more bang for the buck.

Just because something is cheaper doesn't mean it's a better value.

Another thing to think about: The 15GB iPod will have a much better resale value. This is an important consideration for users who intend to sell it at some point to trade up for a new one.

pp

 

[scottwat]

iTunes, Mini and AAC

I think alot of us, me included wanted to see a sub 200$ mini at any capacity. If you look at most consumer electronics this is a target pricepoint. What I would be interested in seeing is an AAC compatible device under this price point. With the move to legal downloads, and I am a huge supporter of legal downloads, the lack of a low price device to support the #1 music store is a bit of a barrier. When Apple entered the windows market which was extremely important for the future of legal music and I think culture in general, they have to deal with the culture of people that barely pay $249 for their computer. While I like the mini at this pricepoint, it does seem fair. There needs to be a step in the lower reaches to appeal to a broader array of consumers. Even a 1 gig would be fine. And really once a person gets hooked on iTMS it is hard to stop, they will upgrade, and give the 1Gig to there GF, Kids, Dog, etc.

 

[phantompigger]

Re: iTunes, Mini and AAC

Originally posted by scottwat
I think alot of us, me included wanted to see a sub 200$ mini at any capacity. If you look at most consumer electronics this is a target pricepoint. What I would be interested in seeing is an AAC compatible device under this price point. With the move to legal downloads, and I am a huge supporter of legal downloads, the lack of a low price device to support the #1 music store is a bit of a barrier.

I agree completely. Apple needs to get an inexpensive device out there to guarantee the continued succes of the iTunes Music Store.

A 2GB iPod mini at $149-$179 would be perfect. Once people get hooked, and once they fill up the mini, they'll want to upgrade to a bigger, badder iPod to maintain compatibility with AAC and the iTunes Music Store.

pp

 

[iggyb]

Re: Re: iTunes, Mini and AAC

Originally posted by phantompigger
I agree completely. Apple needs to get an inexpensive device out there to guarantee the continued succes of the iTunes Music Store.

A 2GB iPod mini at $149-$179 would be perfect. Once people get hooked, and once they fill up the mini, they'll want to upgrade to a bigger, badder iPod to maintain compatibility with AAC and the iTunes Music Store.

pp

Since Apple seems to be uninterested in a low-priced, low-capacity player (by their own admission), perhaps they'll let HP create an iTunes-compatible player.

 

[tiktokfx]

I see a lot of people making claims along the line of

"If this were $200, even if it were smaller, Apple would sell x times more."

However, these same people are saying "Why pay $249 when $299 gets you ~4x more space?"

If Apple were selling, say, a 1GB player for $199, these people would most likely say "Why pay $199 when $299 gets you 15x more space?" or "Why pay $199 when a $249 Rio Nitrus gets you 4x the space?"

There's always going to be people who believe a product is grossly overpriced when compared to similar items.

And with regards to NeXT hardware being a flop (business-wise), that's true. However, that's more due to NeXT never being able to get much respect, ironically, for the software at the time. Note that NeXT had very little success selling software, despite significantly more advanced design than other operating systems of the time. Note that a NeXT Cube has probably the lowest depreciation value of any computer, ever. Find another system that has a 68030 or '040 that can still go for $500-1000.

 

[ccuilla]

Originally posted by phantompigger
Just because something is cheaper doesn't mean it's a better value.

This is true. JUST because something is cheaper does not make it a better value. However, iPod Mini isn't JUST cheaper...it offers some things that WILL be of value to some buyers (smaller, lighter, colored, scroll button/wheel design). But doesn't offer some things that may be of little value to some buyers (extra 11GB of storage).

One size does not fit all, and value cannot always be determined by simply two metrics (price and capacity)...and certainly not just one (price). Furthermore, value (like beauty), is often in the eye of the beholder.

 

[ganryu]

Originally posted by phantompigger
Um, thanks for freaking out. I think I made it quite clear that although I don't need the extra space, I can see that the 15GB iPod provides much more bang for the buck.

To quote a slashdot poster who totally trashes your point on how "price per GB" is the only and absolute metric:

Hey, for mere $3 a GB you can just cart around an Xserve RAID. You think i's got a headphone out and battery back yet?"

 

[Count Blah]

Re: Mini will take off

Originally posted by D*I*S_Frontman
I just reread those initial iPod release rumor threads. They are hysterically funny in hindsight!

...

As for the comparisons to the Cube, remember that the biggest selling point of the Cube was its aesthetics--small form factor, gorgeous casing--and aesthetic flaws like molding cracks ruined the effect. I would argue that if Apple could have produced the polycarbonate case flawlessly and kept the perceived razzle-dazzle fashion-chic undiluted, they could have sold a LOT of Cubes at their inflated price. Even today Cube owners love their units and have figured out how to jam better videocards and processor upgrades into those cases. Heck, Powerlogix offers an aluminum replacement Cube case, don't they?

...

So you are saying that the cube would have been a success if there were not little cracks in the casing!?!?!?!?!? WOW!!! You really missed the point of the whole cube experience then.

 

[frankly]

Originally posted by ccuilla
This is true. JUST because something is cheaper does not make it a better value. However, iPod Mini isn't JUST cheaper...it offers some things that WILL be of value to some buyers (smaller, lighter, colored, scroll button/wheel design). But doesn't offer some things that may be of little value to some buyers (extra 11GB of storage).

One size does not fit all, and value cannot always be determined by simply two metrics (price and capacity)...and certainly not just one (price). Furthermore, value (like beauty), is often in the eye of the beholder.

Exactly!!!

 

[iggyb]

Of course we'll wait and see what the sales response is for the iPod mini. For me, I was hoping for a lower-priced player...something in the $149-199 range. However, there are some that will find this a good value, given the size and style.

In either case, the number 2 and 4 slots of the top sellers in mp3 players are 128KB flash players (1,3, and 5 are the iPods). I would love to see a cheap player compatible with iTunes sometime down the road.

 

[ganryu]

Seriously though, for those of you who keep talking about "bang per buck" - why are you here? The Creative Nomad Zen 60GB sells for $399 retail. The 40GB iPod sells at $499. Clearly you should sell your iPod and get yourself a Nomad right? And head over to the Creative forum?

Oh wait, what's that? You like the design and size of the iPod? So it's not just about price per GB then. I believe this is where I clue you in on how the iPod mini is completely different in terms of design and size. Stop comparing different products based on price per GB, when the other specs are so different.

You guys are pretty funny though, I must say.

 

[Count Blah]

Originally posted by anthonymoody
All the people still making the "Gee for $50 more I could get another 11gigs capacity" and "that's a no brainer" arguments truly make me laugh.

Silly fools - open your eyes. Did it ever occur to you that despite similarities, these products are aimed at completely different consumer wants/needs? These people don't wake up in the morning and say:
-I want a HD based MP3 player, which one will I get?

They wake up and say:
-I want a portable music player that meets *my* needs for the uses *I* will find for it

Then they make their assessment.

I suppose you would also criticize someone for buying a BMW M3 when for *less* money they could have a bigger, larger, higher capacity, 4-door 530i. Please. Open your eyes fools.

TM

Did YOU ever concider that people are unwilling to spend over $200 for a foo-foo item? Parents don't want to spend over $200 for something little jonhy is going smash up while skateboarding. It's an MP3 players, not a computer, it's a shiny neet do-dad. And when you are dealing with the lower priced items(MP3 player, TV, monitor, etc..) you find people who will not go over a certain price.

For example, Apple plays the pricing game in it's computer lineup. It tries to get something out there for under $1000(emac/iBook) It tries to get something out there for $1999(G4/Powerbook). They just chose not to appeal to the "I wouldn't buy that if it was $1 but I'd buy it for $.99" crowd. They wanted to keep their super high profit margin, than win the contest outright for once. That is where I am coming from. A $199 2Gig iPod mini makes more sence to me than a $249 4Gig one because then you actually compete against the flash market.