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I don't understand this. Don't confuse newer with better technology.
I think @Howyalikdemapls was arguing for either lowering the price of now 3-year old product or update the existing model to justify the existing price point.

Both Microsoft and Sony routinely lower the price every few years. For instance, Xbox One launched at $499. 1.5 years later, it was lowered to $349, then to $279 2 years later.

The least Apple should do is sell Apple TV 4K at Apple TV HD ($149) price point.
 
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I think @Howyalikdemapls was arguing for either lowering the price of now 3-year old product or update the existing model to justify the existing price point.

Both Microsoft and Sony routinely lower the price every few years. For instance, Xbox One launched at $499. 1.5 years later, it was lowered to $349, then to $279 2 years later.

The least Apple should do is sell Apple TV 4K at Apple TV HD ($149) price point.
I doubt this will happen.

If you want to believe the rumors, the Apple TV 4K was selling near at-cost.

While technology tends to get cheaper over time, Apple is losing out of economies of scale with the A10X, as there are no other new Apple devices that use the A10X anymore.

Just think of it this way, the Apple TV 4K @$180 was basically an 2017 iPad Pro @ $800 without the display.

Apple tends to shoot for a 37% profit margin, so unless that display on the iPad Pro was crazy expensive, Apple isn't really making much, if any from the ATV4K.
 
I doubt this will happen.

If you want to believe the rumors, the Apple TV 4K was selling near at-cost.

While technology tends to get cheaper over time, Apple is losing out of economies of scale with the A10X, as there are no other new Apple devices that use the A10X anymore.

Just think of it this way, the Apple TV 4K @$180 was basically an 2017 iPad Pro @ $800 without the display.

Apple tends to shoot for a 37% profit margin, so unless that display on the iPad Pro was crazy expensive, Apple isn't really making much, if any from the ATV4K.
John Gruber's "Apple isn't making any profit on Apple TV" has been disputed by Bloomberg's Mark Gurman. While I don't think Apple enjoys as high margin on Apple TV as it does with iPhone, the margin is there.

If Apple can sell Apple TV HD at $149, it can sell Apple TV 4K at $149, which is largely the same minus now-aging processor.

$329 iPad has A12 processor that is largely identical in performance to A10X that drives Apple TV 4K. AppleInsider reported "The difference in processing power between the A10X Fusion and A12 Bionic is slight, but the A12 Bionic has a lead."

Subtract $329 iPad's touchscreen LCD, cameras, and battery, and add a remote, you have what may be the next generation Apple TV.
 
If Apple can sell Apple TV HD at $149, it can sell Apple TV 4K at $149, which is largely the same minus now-aging processor.
This doesn't make any sense.

The Apple TV 4 (HD) launched with the same price tag of $149, the price has not changed. Most likely to Apple already selling it near at-cost.

$329 iPad has A12 processor that is largely identical in performance to A10X that drives Apple TV 4K. AppleInsider reported "The difference in processing power between the A10X Fusion and A12 Bionic is slight, but the A12 Bionic has a lead."
I have been saying this for a long time now. The A12, which is rumored to be in a new ATV, isn't really any faster than the A10X. Some developers have posted that the real world differences have the A10X ahead of the A12 when it comes to GPU performance.

The real reason Apple would choose to do this is for economies of scale. There are lots of new devices with the A12, and none with the A10X, besides the Apple TV 4K.


So, getting back to this:
I think @Howyalikdemapls was arguing for either lowering the price of now 3-year old product or update the existing model to justify the existing price point.
If the processor is basically the same, with real world results putting the older A10X a head of the A12 for GPU performance, it comes down to buying newer, not necessarily better.


Now, I completely understand that there is more to the ATV than just the A10X, but to ignore the lack in processor differences between the A10X and A12 for the sake of being "newer technology" is just silly.

Choosing an inferior device like the Firestick or Roku based off of "newer technology" and not price would be just like this example:
That is like saying one should choose a 2020 Hyundai Accent over a 2017 Tesla Model S because the 2020 Accent has newer technology.
 
This doesn't make any sense.

The Apple TV 4 (HD) launched with the same price tag of $149, the price has not changed. Most likely to Apple already selling it near at-cost.

I have been saying this for a long time now. The A12, which is rumored to be in a new ATV, isn't really any faster than the A10X. Some developers have posted that the real world differences have the A10X ahead of the A12 when it comes to GPU performance.

The real reason Apple would choose to do this is for economies of scale. There are lots of new devices with the A12, and none with the A10X, besides the Apple TV 4K.
Apple TV HD is a 4th generation Apple TV released 5 years ago at $149, sporting then 1 year old A8 processor. Apple TV 4K was released 2 years later with $30 premium. I have no idea how much more expensive A10X is, but I am willing to bet that 2-year old A12 costs close to A8 in 2015, maybe even cheaper.

My theory is reinforced by $329 iPad with A12. Take away the touchscreen, cameras, batteries, and few other components while adding Siri Remote, you get Apple TV.

Apple refreshing Apple TV 4K with A12 processor should help the company hit $149 price point.

As for $179 Apple TV 6, however, I expect nothing less than A14, as to give it more meaningful headroom for Apple Arcade and other new capabilities (maybe AV1 and/or H.266).
 
Apple TV HD is a 4th generation Apple TV released 5 years ago at $149, sporting then 1 year old A8 processor. Apple TV 4K was released 2 years later with $30 premium. I have no idea how much more expensive A10X is, but I am willing to bet that 2-year old A12 costs close to A8 in 2015, maybe even cheaper.
The big difference is that a bunch of new devices use an A12 that can take advantage of economies of scale, there is only one device using an A8 and only one with an A10X, so any cost advantages from economies of scale would have been lost by now.

You assumption that Apple could lower the price of the Apple TV is based only on the fact that the ATV4 and ATV4K are a few years old, not based on the current profit margin. You can compare it to a new iPad, but then you are talking about a totally different A-chip.


My theory is reinforced by $329 iPad with A12. Take away the touchscreen, cameras, batteries, and few other components while adding Siri Remote, you get Apple TV.
You mean you could get an ATV.

Apple refreshing Apple TV 4K with A12 processor should help the company hit $149 price point.
I agree with this.

As for $179 Apple TV 6, however, I expect nothing less than A14,
I hope you are right, but I wouldn't cost on it.

as to give it more meaningful headroom for Apple Arcade and other new capabilities
This would be nice, but keep in mind that the current A10X was never fully utilized.

If Apple continues its path with neglecting the ATV and tvOS, but puts a A14 in it, it will just end up being a crazy fast, but still overpriced streaming box.
 
Apple TV HD is a 4th generation Apple TV released 5 years ago at $149, sporting then 1 year old A8 processor. Apple TV 4K was released 2 years later with $30 premium. I have no idea how much more expensive A10X is, but I am willing to bet that 2-year old A12 costs close to A8 in 2015, maybe even cheaper.

My theory is reinforced by $329 iPad with A12. Take away the touchscreen, cameras, batteries, and few other components while adding Siri Remote, you get Apple TV.

Apple refreshing Apple TV 4K with A12 processor should help the company hit $149 price point.
I was thinking about your post again, but from a different point of view.

Before, I was looking at it through the lens of what @Howyalikdemapls said about willing to buy an inferior device as long as it was new compared to buying a superior device that was three years old. Which still doesn't make sense to me.

But, if I look at your post based on what Apple could do to reduce the price of their ATV by adding an A12, that makes a lot of sense when looking at the 2020 iPad.
 
I recall that the original rumours about a 6th generation Apple TV (4k) suggested an A12 just as the A13 powered iPhone 11 was coming out last year. The AppleTV 4k obviously drives the highest number of pixels possible hence why the 5th generation used the A10X rather than the A10 - treating it like a huge screen iPad Pro 2017.

I would have thought they'd use an A12x or A12z in a future AppleTV arriving earlier this year - again to utilise the higher power GPU to drive 4k panels at 60Hz. The A14 in the current iPad Air would be of interest, depending on the amount of system RAM, and it might still be the target if Apple have delayed until next year to deal with the iPhone demand.

It might be overkill for a streaming box but perhaps necessary if Apple intend to extend Apple Arcade to AppleTV. A GPU capable of upscaling game graphics to a 4k screen plus a couple of extra CPU cores would be a major plus - especially if the next AppleTV is destined for a 3-4 year service life like the current one.

So could AppleTV 6 be looking to inherit the iPad Pro 2020 A12z SoC production line once the iPad Pro 2021 comes out with what could be a highly unsurprising A14x?

The A14 should also have 4 or 6Gb of RAM but if AppleTV is delayed until next year then perhaps Apple actually be looking to add an A14x into it with 6Gb or maybe even 8Gb of RAM? Assuming this is the iPad Pro 2021 SoC we're talking about this could be the basis of a powerful console type system for years to come.

I think Apple's price point will stay consistent, it's just how they choose to spec the next AppleTV that will show how they intend to proceed with Apple Arcade.
 
The Apple TV is likely caught in limbo at the moment. The current Apple TV 4K does everything it needs to do for most customers. A hardware update now would likely do the following:

New chip (A12, A12X/Z, A14 have all been floated as possibilities)
-A12: not as likely as you might think. The A12 was used in a lot of devices (economies of scale) but I think if the iPhone XR is discontinued in favour of the iPhone 11 as the lower model then I think only the low end iPad will be a current A12 product
-A12X/Z: has the GPU power of an XBox One S so would be very good for games but see below. Also used in the current iPad Pro.
-A14: would pick up the true economy of scale by being in all the iPhones and iPad Air.

New HDMI 2.1 port gives the features below but may be difficult /expensive to source as TV makers and MS/Sony are buying up supply
-VRR: great feature for tear-free gaming (but see below again)
-4K120: great for fluid games and UI. Would be great for video, but no real sources >60 Hz.
-QMS: gets rid of the black screen that appears for a few seconds when switching resolution / frame rate

Now, most of these features really only benefit gaming which would be an obvious thing to do if Apple Arcade was doing well, which it doesn't seem to be. Rumors are subscriptions are not where Apple expected and until there is demand, why release a new piece of hardware? If it takes another 12-18 months to drive Apple Arcade subscriptions, hardware released now will be looking a bit out of date.

If a release is delayed until next year it's possible that an A15 chip will get VVC/h266 support (this standard was onlt finalised in July this year - too late to likely be in the A14) which would give some video benefits (less bandwidth for streaming and enabling of 8K content should it ever arrive).

What may well happen is that the A10X is moved onto a 5 or 7 nm platform to extend the lifespan of the current model and allow a price cut while maintaining the margin. It happened before with the Apple TV 3 (45-32 nm process change). Or Apple, may just think "sod it" and drop the current prototype hardware onto the market and see what happens.
 
Now this is beyond strange... I get an email this morning from Apple "Upgrade your Apple TV to Apple TV 4K"

An ad for the box, highlighting Apple TV+, Arcade, etc. First time I've ever received anything promoting the 4K box.

Seems weird to get one now? I am still on my third generation box and impatiently waiting for the new one.

Move to get rid of current stock I wonder?
 
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The real reason Apple would choose to do this is for economies of scale. There are lots of new devices with the A12, and none with the A10X, besides the Apple TV 4K.

The A12 was used in a lot of devices (economies of scale)

I think you guys are half misunderstanding the economies of scale with regard to semiconductor fabrication. There are economies of scale, but the real savings are about lifetime total output rather than rate of production. In short, it's not about how many of each chip Apple is having made per day today, but rather how many of each chip Apple has had made total since the beginning.

For example, with some simple things like injection molded toys, the rate of production is what drives the savings. In other words, the more you make per day, the cheaper each one is. But with semiconductors, this is true, but it's not as big of a factor. This is because with simple things, the upfront cost is low relative to the material and ongoing cost of keeping the lines going.

With semiconductor fabbing, the front-end costs are MASSIVE. Initial R&D, then setup/layout, then many super expensive test runs; basically a very high % of the lifetime cost of the project is paid before you manufacture a single production chip. But the materials and ongoing costs are low relative to everything else. Because of this, each chip manufactured makes them all cost a bit less. So even down the road, when you're not making that many per day anymore, it's still worthwhile to keep making older design chips at a slow rate. By that point, the cost per chip is so low, so why not?

So it's not THAT important that there are no other A10X devices being sold today. The important thing is that over the lifetime of the A10X, a lot of devices have been sold.

Also, I don't necessarily agree that Apple is only making A10X chips for the ATV today. Don't forget to account for refurbs and repair parts - many of those A10X-based iPad Pros are still under warranty and will be for a while, and some countries require Apple to keep spare parts in stock for a number of years.

That said, I agree that switching to the A12 is probably cheaper. In total sum, there have probably been more A12 devices sold by now than A10X devices (maybe even A12X/Z too). Also, the A10X is an early 10nm FinFet design which is complicated - my understanding is that TSMC can fab the newer 7nm designs easier today, which is what the A12 is. It would also allow Apple to basically move entirely to the 7nm or smaller processes, no longer needing to purchase space on the 10nm/16nm production lines.
 
That said, I agree that switching to the A12 is probably cheaper. In total sum, there have probably been more A12 devices sold by now than A10X devices (maybe even A12X/Z too). Also, the A10X is an early 10nm FinFet design which is complicated - my understanding is that TSMC can fab the newer 7nm designs easier today, which is what the A12 is. It would also allow Apple to basically move entirely to the 7nm or smaller processes, no longer needing to purchase space on the 10nm/16nm production lines.
The proper thing to do is replace Apple TV HD with 6th gen Apple TV with A12, enabling 4K to hit $149 price point, with higher priced Apple TV "Pro" with A14X and other enhancements. This way, most people who want cheaper Apple TV can buy A12 model. Few that want the absolute best for Apple Arcade experience can spend more for A14X model.
 
The Apple TV is likely caught in limbo at the moment. The current Apple TV 4K does everything it needs to do for most customers. A hardware update now would likely do the following:

New chip (A12, A12X/Z, A14 have all been floated as possibilities)
-A12: not as likely as you might think. The A12 was used in a lot of devices (economies of scale) but I think if the iPhone XR is discontinued in favour of the iPhone 11 as the lower model then I think only the low end iPad will be a current A12 product
-A12X/Z: has the GPU power of an XBox One S so would be very good for games but see below. Also used in the current iPad Pro.
-A14: would pick up the true economy of scale by being in all the iPhones and iPad Air.

New HDMI 2.1 port gives the features below but may be difficult /expensive to source as TV makers and MS/Sony are buying up supply
-VRR: great feature for tear-free gaming (but see below again)
-4K120: great for fluid games and UI. Would be great for video, but no real sources >60 Hz.
-QMS: gets rid of the black screen that appears for a few seconds when switching resolution / frame rate

Now, most of these features really only benefit gaming which would be an obvious thing to do if Apple Arcade was doing well, which it doesn't seem to be. Rumors are subscriptions are not where Apple expected and until there is demand, why release a new piece of hardware? If it takes another 12-18 months to drive Apple Arcade subscriptions, hardware released now will be looking a bit out of date.

If a release is delayed until next year it's possible that an A15 chip will get VVC/h266 support (this standard was onlt finalised in July this year - too late to likely be in the A14) which would give some video benefits (less bandwidth for streaming and enabling of 8K content should it ever arrive).

What may well happen is that the A10X is moved onto a 5 or 7 nm platform to extend the lifespan of the current model and allow a price cut while maintaining the margin. It happened before with the Apple TV 3 (45-32 nm process change). Or Apple, may just think "sod it" and drop the current prototype hardware onto the market and see what happens.

Some AppleTV 3 units were a process shrink (I have both kinds) - this was simply to increase the number of usable units by using units with a disabled CPU core (for reasons of quality control). This made it cheaper for Apple to make while offering no performance increase.

The principle is similar with A12x and A12z.

Now, if Apple wanted to go down this route they would have A14z CPUs in the expensive iPad Pros while A14x CPUs - with say 1 GPU core having failed QC - get put into the AppleTV6.

So instead of waiting 12 months between launching the iterations Apple could actually launch the two even closer together. If the iPad Pros come out this year or early next with A14z, we could see the AppleTV6 with A14x between March and October that year. I'd like to think that WWDC'21 would be the ideal stage for that.

I'm not sure that Apple would be keen to get on the bleeding edge of tech for streaming standards, anything streetwise could surely be dealt with in software if needs be and then supported in hardware with the A15/A16 as you say.

The other tech you mention wouldn't be top of their list for similar reasons. I think they are aiming at the Nintendo Switch type gamer market rather than the higher tech 'AAA' tltle older Xbox/PS5 market so 'adequate' rather than bleeding edge is the name of the game here.

Having said that, wouldn't the Epic court case be undermined somewhat if Apple actually positioned the AppleTV6 as a razor thin margin device - effectively matching Sony/Nintendo and Microsoft's games consoles? They could allow third party retailers to bundle it with phone contracts for example.
 
The proper thing to do is replace Apple TV HD with 6th gen Apple TV with A12, enabling 4K to hit $149 price point, with higher priced Apple TV "Pro" with A14X and other enhancements. This way, most people who want cheaper Apple TV can buy A12 model. Few that want the absolute best for Apple Arcade experience can spend more for A14X model.

Or ramp up the storage - hence the doubling of SSD that's been heavily rumoured in the past. At this stage, the A12 lines are now so efficient they can produce them for the 'classic' iPad cheaply so putting it in an AppleTV - remember there's been prototypes rumoured to be on the cusp of release for a year now - could be the plan for Apple.
 
The proper thing to do is replace Apple TV HD with 6th gen Apple TV with A12, enabling 4K to hit $149 price point, with higher priced Apple TV "Pro" with A14X and other enhancements. This way, most people who want cheaper Apple TV can buy A12 model. Few that want the absolute best for Apple Arcade experience can spend more for A14X model.

Yea, I generally agree, though not sure there is a reason to have this bifurcated sku lineup where both devices are sort of redundant and at the high-end of the price spectrum. I'm totally ok with there being an Apple tax on this sort of thing, you gotta pay for quality, but the market seems to be demanding a lower-priced product at the entry-level (see all the Roku, FireTV, Chromecast, and Tivo sticks) and the market doesn't seem to much care about processing power from these things - indeed most of them have UI lag that I find unacceptable but people use them just fine. Also, from a consumer ease-of-use point of view, I can see the appeal of the "sticks" rather than a box with cables.

From that perspective, I'd rather see something like an A12 (or even an A12c, maybe some with cores binned due to manufacturing defect) be a <$100 Apple TV streaming stick capable of 4k streaming but not gaming, and a <$200 Apple TV with the latest and greatest Apple can offer in terms of power for gaming.

If there was no AppleTV, I would probably have an Nvidia Shield ($150) for my primary tv, and I would probably have Tivo Stream 4Ks (with vanilla Android TV) ($70) for my other TVs. To me, I think these are the rough prices Apple should aim to hit.
 
Yea, I generally agree, though not sure there is a reason to have this bifurcated sku lineup where both devices are sort of redundant and at the high-end of the price spectrum. I'm totally ok with there being an Apple tax on this sort of thing, you gotta pay for quality, but the market seems to be demanding a lower-priced product at the entry-level (see all the Roku, FireTV, Chromecast, and Tivo sticks) and the market doesn't seem to much care about processing power from these things - indeed most of them have UI lag that I find unacceptable but people use them just fine. Also, from a consumer ease-of-use point of view, I can see the appeal of the "sticks" rather than a box with cables.

From that perspective, I'd rather see something like an A12 (or even an A12c, maybe some with cores binned due to manufacturing defect) be a <$100 Apple TV streaming stick capable of 4k streaming but not gaming, and a <$200 Apple TV with the latest and greatest Apple can offer in terms of power for gaming.

If there was no AppleTV, I would probably have an Nvidia Shield ($150) for my primary tv, and I would probably have Tivo Stream 4Ks (with vanilla Android TV) ($70) for my other TVs. To me, I think these are the rough prices Apple should aim to hit.

Let's bear in mind that one way to reduce from the price of the AppleTV is to go back to a 'much loved' remote from the mk3 - the aluminium remote. $99 would be a good way of getting people into AppleTV if they say that you can optionally buy a suitable upgraded remote.

Apple would just keep the 5th generation 4k model around at a lower price if the wanted a 2-tier approach but as mentioned earlier in this post they may not be interested in continuing to manufacture the A10X past a certain point.

The A12 would be the logical low cost SoC - going into the 8th generation iPad would be a sign of Apple being able to manufacture for a low cost and go for volume. The trouble is at the low end Apple are fighting off he Raspberry Pi and various Fire Sticks and Roku Boxes, and the high end set top boxes can play AAA games.

Apple just don't have the software support at the moment to attack the like of the Nintendo Switch let alone PS5 or Xbox Series X.
 
because my AppleTV 4th generation was still "new-ish" and I didn't have a 4K television anyway. (still don't). But now, I'm sitting here with a 2015 device, not exactly wanting to upgrade to a 2017 device. Spoiler alert, it's a terrible experience. It lags, it freezes, it gives up, it's the worst. How does Apple launch AppleTV+ and not launch a new device the same year (or following year)?

Yeah, I thought I would pass on the 4K-one since a new one was supposedly coming. Looks like iPads and Watch got announced but still no Apple-TV 2020.

However, my Apple-TV HD (4th-Gen) is solid ... never crashes. We use Asphalt-8, Amazon Prime Video, and Plex mainly (but lots of others as well). I have mine on a UPS-battery and use an actual ethernet cable.
 
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