Is Apple insulting our intelligence?

[northernbaldy]

Hang on

When phones are in a low signal area, they boost the strength to try to get a better signal
So if the software is screwed, then the phone is going to be confused to hell

So for all we know, the software fix might cure all the problems

 

[SiskoKid]

Apple has admitted that if you hold the phone across the break on the left band, that reception is diminished. They say don't hold it that way. They claim all phones diminish reception if you hold them at the bottom. That is true, but not on the same scale as the iPhone.

In the Anandtech review, while being held naturally, the NexusOne lost 10.7 db while iPhone4 lost 19.8. Thats a drop of 9.1db. As a frame of reference, 10db is a 10x change in signal strength. 9.1db = 8x lower signal strength.
There was an uproar over the Nexus One's performance. Google never really addressed it. And you can see what a wild success that phone has been.

I thought people bought the iPhone because its the best, not because you can find one phone somewhere who's performance is ONLY 8x better.
Meanwhile in their test, the iPhone 3GS lost 1.9db, meaning a drop of 17.9db. For reference, 20db is a 100x change in signal strength. At 17.9db difference = 62 times weaker signal strength.

FYI. db is a relative measure. If you want to find out how many times different two value are, and have the db value, the formula is:
10 ** (db/10)
In words, 10 raised to the power of (db divided by 10).
So for a 17.9db change, thats
10 ** 1.79 = 62 (rounded)

The math expressed in percentages would all equal the same regardless of what formula you put all that through.

The range in which the phone call would still stick even with the drop in dB was still well within range per Anandtech's chart. And would be in most cases.

The article goes on to say that in real world use, the reception is better than a 3GS.

If the Nexus One had that outrage as you stated, no one was paying attention because it didn't make any headlines. And the phone also had some great reviews for it with reception issues pretty much glazed over.

This is an arbitrary issue. If you're dropping calls, then you simply don't have the signal strength in your area for an iPhone 4. In many other areas, the phone works great regardless how you hold it.

 

[woofermazing]

Apple hasn't admitted a RECEPTION issue. They said that the way the bars are shown is the issue. NOT a reception issue.

Anandtech compared it to a Nexus One, and compared to that phone, the iPhone MAYBE loses 5dB more. It's completely arbitrary yet no one was up in arms over the Nexus One.

This is NOT an issue. If you don't have good reception, go to another carrier or get another phone.

The Nexus One also has a similar issue with signal loss that Google acknowledge a while ago and has tried and is still trying to fix through software patches. A Blackberry on AT&T might have been better since it is easy to change to display dBm's, but he probably didn't have one around.

 

[Ronnoco]

You forgot one.

Users who are not experiencing any problems at all and are really enjoying an amazing phone.

This is the category I fall into. I love Apple, but I do not follow them blindly. For me the iPhone 4 works beautifully and I actually get signal in some places I never did before. I don't discount that others are having problems, but I don't think it's as widespread and severe as it appears.

+1
If I was experiencing serious call/data drops I'd be frustrated and angry and I would have taken my phone down to the Apple Store demanding a replacement or a non-restocking fee refund in a heartbeat (or if I wasn't in reasonable range of an Apple store or AT&T store I'd be on the phone with AppleCare demanding they send a postage paid return box)..I feel for those experiencing the more serious issues and not having the use of their new iP4.
What DOES happen here a lot when there are reported issues with Apple products (ANY Apple product) is, you begin to get people posting threads like:
Here is my screen shot...do I have the issue?" or "What should I be looking for to see if I too have the horrible issue?" or "well, if I stand on my head in my basement while holding the phone in a bucket of water my signal drops too, should I bring my phone back?" or "here is my screen shot...do I have the yellow screen issue (or stuck pixel issue)?".
These "psychosomatic" threads always provide some comic relief for me when pertaining to serious issues...I always want to post:
"Dude, if you don't notice the issue, you probably don't have it so stop looking for it!"...LOL
I usually refrain from responding like that, but I DO always have the urge...LOL
These things do seem to take on a snowball rolling down a snowy mountainside like effect...

 

[dmelgar]

The math expressed in percentages would all equal the same regardless of what formula you put all that through.
...
If the Nexus One had that outrage as you stated, no one was paying attention because it didn't make any headlines. And the phone also had some great reviews for it with reception issues pretty much glazed over.

Maybe a basic math course is in order.
Maybe explains your reasoning for keeping a defective phone.
Ok.. in percentages, 62x = 6200%. The iPhone 3gs has 6200% better signal strength than the iPhone 4. There. Does that clear things up?

No one complained about Nexus One reception? How about Gizmodo (those Apple haters, I mean Android haters). Or an article titled, Nexus One 3G Issues Widely Reported

 

[yentrog31]

They are the largest by market capitalization

2010

This Financial Times Global 500 based list is up to date as of March 30, 2010. Indicated changes in market value are relative to the previous quarter.
Rank First quarter [1]
1 PetroChina
▼329,259.7
2 Exxon Mobil
▲316,230.8
3 Microsoft
▼256,864.7
4 Industrial and Commercial Bank of China
▼246,419.8
5 Apple Inc.
▲213,096.7
6
BHP Billiton
▲209,935.1
7 Wal-mart
▲209,000.7
8 Berkshire Hathaway
▲200,620.5
9 General Electric
▲194,246.2
10 China Mobile
▲192,998.6

______________________________

they are 5th..unless the made 100 bil this last qtr..do you people just make this stuff up as you go?

 

[dmelgar]

+1
If I was experiencing serious call/data drops I'd be frustrated and angry and I would have taken my phone down to the Apple Store demanding a replacement or a non-restocking fee refund in a heartbeat..I feel for those experiences the more serious issues and not having the use of their new iP4.
What DOES happen here a lot when there are reported issues with Apple products (ANY Apple product) is you begin to get people posting threads like:
Here is my screen shot...do I have the issue?" or "What should I be looking for to see if I too have the horrible issue?" or "well, if I stand on my head in my basement while holding the phone in a bucket of water my signal drops too, should I bring my phone back?".
These "psychosomatic" threads always provide some comic relief for me when pertaining to serious issues...I always want to post:
"Dude, if you don't notice the issue, you probably don't have it"...LOL
I usually refrain from responding like that, but I DO always have the urge...LOL
These things do seem to take on a snowball rolling down a snowy mountainside like effect...

I agree thats typical for complaints here. They're usually minor problems affecting only a few devices and noticed by even fewer.
This is the first time I've ever heard of Apple having a major design issue. It affects everyone but is masked if you are in a strong signal area or don't touch the phone with your skin.
It is hard to imagine how a manufacturer could come up with a product with such a severe problem. Apparently only due to Apple's secrecy and not testing without a case.
Hard to imagine Apple making a mistake but its happened this time. And worse, Apple is not planning any sort of a fix, instead telling their users theyre using it wrong. So much for good user experience.

 

[SnowLeopard2008]

2010

This Financial Times Global 500 based list is up to date as of March 30, 2010. Indicated changes in market value are relative to the previous quarter.
Rank First quarter [1]
1 PetroChina
▼329,259.7
2 Exxon Mobil
▲316,230.8
3 Microsoft
▼256,864.7
4 Industrial and Commercial Bank of China
▼246,419.8
5 Apple Inc.
▲213,096.7
6
BHP Billiton
▲209,935.1
7 Wal-mart
▲209,000.7
8 Berkshire Hathaway
▲200,620.5
9 General Electric
▲194,246.2
10 China Mobile
▲192,998.6

______________________________

they are 5th..unless the made 100 bil this last qtr..do you people just make this stuff up as you go?

Second largest by market capitalization in the US. Key word is US. Only Exxon is bigger. And Microsoft had a huge drop.

 

[Geckotek]

NO ONE roped you into buying an iPhone 4 at launch. Had you waited not even a day, you would've seen these alleged "issues" pop up informing your purchasing decision.

Unfortunately, you just don't get good enough reception where you are for your iPhone 4 to work properly when held a certain way. For most others, myself included, the iPhone 4 functions flawlessly under every situation it's been in.

I'm sorry it doesn't work for you, but you're not getting a fix from Apple because it works. The only thing you'll see now is an accurate portrayal of your signal. And, from the way you're sounding, it sounds like your phone will say "No Signal" a lot after the "fix."

I didn't say I was roped in @ Launch. I basically was saying that Apple has presented us with this iPhone....this magical iPhone we all love so much. We are here as Apple customers, just asking to be treated right.

And I actually am not having issues either. I believe A) the signal in most areas I'm in are now strong enough (they're better than they were when I swtiched to AT&T) so that I don't experience the issue. And B) since some have shown that some phones suffer worse than others, I believe I've lucked out and have one that doesn't suffer as badly. However, the data test made me a believer when I realized I could drop my data traffic by touching the side of my phone.

The difference between you and me is that I have the ability to look at this objectively and see that there is a real issue here. People are actually having problems that Apple should find a way to resolve. Telling them to just get a refund or that it will get fixed with a software patch is ludicrous. These are loyal Apple fans (not me...I just own an iPhone...nothing more) and Apple should do what it takes to resolve this.

You on the other hand seem to be hellbent on arguing against the reasonable response for some reason.

 

[dmelgar]

2010

This Financial Times Global 500 based list is up to date as of March 30, 2010. Indicated changes in market value are relative to the previous quarter.
Rank First quarter [1]
1 PetroChina
▼329,259.7
2 Exxon Mobil
▲316,230.8
3 Microsoft
▼256,864.7
4 Industrial and Commercial Bank of China
▼246,419.8
5 Apple Inc.
▲213,096.7


they are 5th..unless the made 100 bil this last qtr..do you people just make this stuff up as you go?

It was widely reported that Apple passed Microsoft to be the #2 stock in the United States in market capitalization, only behind Exxon.
Apple Overtakes Microsoft in Market Capitalization

 

[Ronnoco]

I agree thats typical for complaints here. They're usually minor problems affecting only a few devices and noticed by even fewer.
This is the first time I've ever heard of Apple having a major design issue. It affects everyone but is masked if you are in a strong signal area or don't touch the phone with your skin.
It is hard to imagine how a manufacturer could come up with a product with such a severe problem. Apparently only due to Apple's secrecy and not testing without a case.
Hard to imagine Apple making a mistake but its happened this time. And worse, Apple is not planning any sort of a fix, instead telling their users theyre using it wrong. So much for good user experience.

It's only been out a week...If the problems continue after the coming software fix I would expect Apple to continue to monitor and investigate the issues and come up with some sort of plan that will fix the issue in a satisfactory way for most fair minded customers with either a recall/exchange with a newer "fixed" unit or a complete refund and some sort of credit...
There are always going to be a certain amount of customers that simply cannot be satisfied and will continue to rant and hate...
If the issues truly are that widespread (and I am talking about actually consistently dropping calls and data connection, not just seeing the signal indicator drop bars), then I FULLY EXPECT Apple to address the problem in a fair and timely manner...I do however give them some time to get a firm and accurate assessment of just how widespread the actual call/data dropping issue really is...
I've seen this kind of sheer panic and overreaction with the "yellow screen" issue of the 3G and 3GS...again, not that there weren't people that actually had a serious display discoloration issue, but it wasn't NEARLY as widespread as people reported it to be here...

 

[yentrog31]

Second largest by market capitalization in the US. Key word is US. Only Exxon is bigger. And Microsoft had a huge drop.

QUOTE=JediZenMaster;10422470]They are the largest by market capitalization[/QUOTE]

that wasn't the question

 

[dmelgar]

It's only been out a week...I would expect Apple to continue to monitor and investigate the issues and come up with some sort of plan that will fix the issue in a satisfactory way for most fair minded customers...
There are always going to be a certain amount of customers that simply cannot be satisfied and will continue to rant and hate...
If the issues truly are that widespread (and I am talking about actually consistently dropping calls and data connection, not just seeing the signal indicator drop bars), then I FULLY EXPECT Apple to address the problem in a fair and timely manner...I do however give them some time to get a firm and accurate assessment of just how widespread the actual call/data dropping issue really is...
I've seen this kind of sheer panic and overreaction with the "yellow screen" issue of the 3G and 3GS...again, not that there weren't people that actually had a serious display discoloration issue, but it wasn't NEARLY as widespread as people reported it to be here...

Ya, I agree, thats what you'd expect to happen in normal circumstances.

But the travesty here is that the problem is so obvious to any antenna designer. Its more a matter of suspending disbelief to imagine that it could ever have worked. The fact that it doesn't comes as no surprise.

I know. I'm amazed, I'm shocked. But it really appears that its a fundamental hardware design issue.

Apple simple CANNOT fix it in any easy way. They have pretty much said so. They now know the problem. They can't do anything about it. Hold the phone different. Reception is good if you don't touch the antenna. Changing the number of bars doesn't have anything to do with reception, only whats displayed.

All the other problems reported on the iPhone 4 seem to be more typical. Either a production problem on a handful of phones or something a software change will cure.

But this reception problem is much more serious. And I frankly can't believe that anyone is willing to give Apple a pass on it. I can understand that its hard for people to believe Apple could possibly have messed up this bad. I agree. But it doesn't change the situation.

 

[Ronnoco]

Ya, I agree, thats what you'd expect to happen in normal circumstances.

But the travesty here is that the problem is so obvious to any antenna designer. Its more a matter of suspending disbelief to imagine that it could ever have worked. The fact that it doesn't comes as no surprise.

I know. I'm amazed, I'm shocked. But it really appears that its a fundamental hardware design issue.

Apple simple CANNOT fix it in any easy way. They have pretty much said so. They now know the problem. They can't do anything about it. Hold the phone different. Reception is good if you don't touch the antenna. Changing the number of bars doesn't have anything to do with reception, only whats displayed.

All the other problems reported on the iPhone 4 seem to be more typical. Either a production problem on a handful of phones or something a software change will cure.

But this reception problem is much more serious. And I frankly can't believe that anyone is willing to give Apple a pass on it. I can understand that its hard for people to believe Apple could possibly have messed up this bad. I agree. But it doesn't change the situation.

I am totally willing to believe that Apple screwed up...it happens...even obvious things like this. Until this recent recall by Toyota/Lexus, as a former Lexus owner I'd have NEVER expected something so blatantly stupid would cause several deaths and many other close calls as what happend with these once vaunted vehicles that would lead to perhaps the largest most costly recall in Automotive history (in fact, Lexus had to JUST TODAY recall another 130,000 cars for an issue unrelated to the stuck accelerator issue)...
Now, as I stated earlier, one shouldn't compare the serious "life and death" situation of Toyota/Lexus to the Apple iPhone antenna issues, but it does demonstrate that even the best, most respected companies are capable of stupidity or even gross negligence.
As I said, the phone has only been out a week and I'm sure Apple is feverishly working to figure out just how widespread the "serious" (consistent call and data dropping) issue is and whether it is indeed hardware related or firmware/software "fixable" before committing to a massive recall...
I'll give them a little more time to figure it out...I don't have the issue, but I have said I certainly do feel for those that do. I DO however think that many people that actually aren't dropping calls or data are panicing and freaking out and this just blurs the real issue...

 

[random person]

Hang on

When phones are in a low signal area, they boost the strength to try to get a better signal
So if the software is screwed, then the phone is going to be confused to hell

So for all we know, the software fix might cure all the problems

This is exactly what I think and hope will happen. It's not just the bars it's the algorithm that drives how the phone hunts for the best signal. That's theoretically part of the magic of this phone. So it is possible that by fixing the bars it will also fix the way the phone seeks a signal, so that it won't drop calls or data.

In the meantime I concur with the suggestion of a new advertising campaign for AT&T: Fewer bars in more places! Now that's differentiation for you!

 

[JPark]

I didn't say I was roped in @ Launch. I basically was saying that Apple has presented us with this iPhone....this magical iPhone we all love so much. We are here as Apple customers, just asking to be treated right.

And I actually am not having issues either. I believe A) the signal in most areas I'm in are now strong enough (they're better than they were when I swtiched to AT&T) so that I don't experience the issue. And B) since some have shown that some phones suffer worse than others, I believe I've lucked out and have one that doesn't suffer as badly. However, the data test made me a believer when I realized I could drop my data traffic by touching the side of my phone.

The difference between you and me is that I have the ability to look at this objectively and see that there is a real issue here. People are actually having problems that Apple should find a way to resolve. Telling them to just get a refund or that it will get fixed with a software patch is ludicrous. These are loyal Apple fans (not me...I just own an iPhone...nothing more) and Apple should do what it takes to resolve this.

You on the other hand seem to be hellbent on arguing against the reasonable response for some reason.

Gecko, you're my hero. The most frustrating aspects of this whole mess have been Apple's denial of the problem, and the castigation I've received on these forums from those who feel that just because they haven't seen the problem everyone who does must either be an Apple hater, a liar, or just a cry baby. Every once in awhile it's just nice to get a little affirmation.

 

[dukebound85]

so fixing iPhone 4 defective hardware with software is not lying? Then again Apple claims to do everything better than everyone else so I guess Steve Jobs will pull a miraculous software for hardware fix from his magic hat.

Um they fixed a hardware issue with a software patch with the early macbooks that suffered from random shutdown syndrom....I know as I had a mb that had the issue

 

[Geckotek]

Gecko, you're my hero. The most frustrating aspects of this whole mess have been Apple's denial of the problem, and the castigation I've received on these forums from those who feel that just because they haven't seen the problem everyone who does must either be an Apple hater, a liar, or just a cry baby. Every once in awhile it's just nice to get a little affirmation.

Thank you. I know it can be very frustrating to have people deny an issue exists when you are experiencing it first hand.

Um they fixed a hardware issue with a software patch with the early macbooks that suffered from random shutdown syndrom....I know as I had a mb that had the issue

This doesn't mean all hardware related issues can be fixed by a software patch.

 

[Ronnoco]

Gecko, you're my hero. The most frustrating aspects of this whole mess have been Apple's denial of the problem, and the castigation I've received on these forums from those who feel that just because they haven't seen the problem everyone who does must either be an Apple hater, a liar, or just a cry baby. Every once in awhile it's just nice to get a little affirmation.

There certainly are those that will never admit Apple could've F'd up, but there are just as many that scream and rant about EVERY POSSIBLE issue of every Apple product...
Most of us fair minded iPhone 4 owners will allow Apple more than just 5 days or a week to decide if a FULL RECALL is the answer...a full recall is a HUGE undertaking both logistically and financially for the company, it's vendors AND it's customers. If/when it is decided that this is a hardware flaw that affects most of the iP4's already in the market, I fully expect Apple to make good on their error...
Again, I can understand waiting a bit more than a week to make such a HUGE decision...in the meantime, they are offering full 100% refunds without restocking fees for anyone that wants to return the phone and wait to see what the company does to address the situation.
IMO, the ranting and raving of "Evil Steve" and Evil Apple" is both over the top and juvenile...
There are options. Return the phone for a full and immediate refund (and buy again if the problem is solved to your liking), or wait for a fix...
Some of this Drama Queen stuff is going from comical to annoying....

 

[christianinri]

Yah instead of being unhappy, just return the phone. You get your money back and you dont have to worry about Apple insulting your intelligence.

 

[Geckotek]

There certainly are those that will never admit Apple could've F'd up, but there are just as many that scream and rant about EVERY POSSIBLE issue of every Apple product...
Most of us fair minded iPhone 4 owners will allow Apple more than just 5 days or a week to decide if a FULL RECALL is the answer...a full recall is a HUGE undertaking both logistically and financially for the company, it's vendors AND it's customers. If/when it is decided that this is a hardware flaw that affects most of the iP4's already in the market, I fully expect Apple to make good on their error...
Again, I can understand waiting a bit more than a week to make such a HUGE decision...in the meantime, they are offering full 100% refunds without restocking fees for anyone that wants to return the phone and wait to see what the company does to adress the situation.
IMO, the ranting and raving of "Evil Steve" and Evil Apple" is both over the top and juvenile...
There are options. Return the phone for a full and immediate refund (and buy again if the problem is solved to your liking), or wait for a fix...
Some of this Drama Queen stuff is going from comical to annoying....

True, as usual there are extremists on both sides.

I hope they do make good on it...we shall see. My bet....the best we see out of Apple is a discounted bumper. However, the Apple GCs they gave with the price drop on the first iPhone were a pleasant surprise (not that I had one).

 

[JPark]

Um they fixed a hardware issue with a software patch with the early macbooks that suffered from random shutdown syndrom....I know as I had a mb that had the issue

If it was fixed with a software patch, by definition it was a software issue.

 

[Ronnoco]

True, as usual there are extremists on both sides.

I hope they do make good on it...we shall see. My bet....the best we see out of Apple is a discounted bumper. However, the Apple GCs they gave with the price drop on the first iPhone were a pleasant surprise (not that I had one).

If it is found that it is a hardware problem that cannot be fixed with firmware/software, I expect Apple to initiate an exchange program for newer phones that have a hardware fix (i've experienced this with faulty Sony Batteries in my G4 PowerBook and the recall was well implemented and fairly painless)...now, this could take a while, but I do expect Apple to make good...
Unlike many here, (and call me a fanboy if you like ), at the end of the day when all the information is available to them, I trust Apple to do what is right. I've been an Apple product user for many many years and have had issues with some of the products and they have ALWAYS done right by me in the end (not that I haven't had my arguments with them, but again, in the end, they did the right thing)...until I see them NOT do the right thing given enough time and information, I'll continue to trust them and stay a loyal customer...(I am however, prepared to walk on Apple if they stupidly choose to ignore this problem if it is in fact as wide spread as many here insist).

 

[tritonj]

If it is found that it is a hardware problem that cannot be fixed with firmware/software, I expect Apple to initiate an exchange program for newer phones that have a hardware fix (i've experienced this with faulty Sony Batteries in my G4 PowerBook and the recall was well implemented and fairly painless)...now, this could take a while, but I do expect Apple to make good...
Unlike many here, (and call me a fanboy if you like ), at the end of the day when all the information is available to them, I trust Apple to do what is right. I've been an Apple product for many many years and have had issues with soem of the products and they have ALWAYS done right by me in the end (not that I haven't had my arguments with them, but again, in the end, they have doen the right thing)...until I see them NOT do the right thing given enough time and information, I'll continue to trust them and stay a loyal customer...(I am however, prepared to walk on Apple if they stupidly choose to ignore this problem is it is in fact as wide spread as many here insist).

you can forget about any hardware redesign or fix unless this gets so big to the point that it hits apple where it hurts and that is their wallet. and so far from sales figures they can sit back and count their cash, since people are buying it inspite of any alleged problems. so either the majority don't have problems or they are willing to live with the problem. apple really doesn't care which one it is. only way they will care is if people start returning phones and it gets to the point where profits margins are suffering too much

 

[Ronnoco]

you can forget about any hardware redesign or fix unless this gets so big to the point that it hits apple where it hurts and that is their wallet. and so far from sales figures they can sit back and count their cash, since people are buying it inspite of any alleged problems. so either the majority don't have problems or they are willing to live with the problem. apple really doesn't care which one it is. only way they will care is if people start returning phones and it gets to the point where profits margins are suffering too much

Don't you think that makes sense? If they find that the product is hardware defective enough for people to return the phone, they need to recall the product...anyone that is keeping an iPhone 4 that is consistently dropping calls and data is either not really having the issue, or really just wants an iPod Touch...
The iPhone is a lot of things and has many features but it is first and primarily a phone. If enough people call and report the phone isn't working or begin returning it because the phone part of the unit is faulty, Apple will have no choice but to address the hardware issue....
Apple/Steve may be evil, but the are not dumb...
I believe we will soon see just how widespread the actual call/data dropping issue (not just losing signal bars) really is...