iPhone 12 Is iPhone 12 still using PWM OLED?

[matthijst]

Have the people with this issue contacted a dr yet? Because coming on here saying iPhones are bad for you when the vast majority of people don’t have this issue makes you look a bit crazy, especially with how hard some of you are pushing this. Go to a doctor and figure out what’s wrong with you.

Yep, went to the ophthalmologist, got my eyes checked, but nothing wrong with it. This was after getting headaches after using the X for a while. "Never" had headaches before and they disappeared after getting rid of my X.

I am curious why a group of people have this issue, and why another group doesn’t. And why 3 generations of phones have this same issue that has not been corrected. Trolling is out of boredom and it keeps people on their toes. It’s good for all of us.

Why do some people have allergies and some people don't?

Don't know why Apple hasn't "solved" this yet, assume because the group of people that is affected by this is very small. I'll give the 12 Pro Max another try, will try to keep brightness around 50% and see how it goes.

 

[jm31828]

What is PWM?

Pulse Wave Modulation- it is the flicker that all OLED phone screens have that is not noticeable to you, but is definitely there and flickers at a different frequency depending on how bright you make your display. (a slower flicker for lower brightness, a very fast flicker for higher brightness, if that makes sense since this type of screen cannot simply dim like regular LCD screens can)

The problem is that a relatively small portion of the public get eye strain, eye pain, and headaches from this PWM when using a phone that utilizes OLED technology.

 

[RRC]

Yep, went to the ophthalmologist, got my eyes checked, but thing wrong with it. This was after getting headaches after using the X for a while. "Never" had headaches before and they disappeared after getting rid of my X.

Why do some people have allergies and some people don't?

Don't know why Apple hasn't "solved" this yet, assume because the group of people that is affected by this is very small. I'll give the 12 Pro Max another try, will try to keep brightness around 50% and see how it goes.

Probably not an option you want to try, but I suffer from this and I fitted a privacy screen protector which has a bit of a tint to it. That combined with increased brightness seems to help me.

 

[TDDM]

What is PWM?

Why Pulse-Width Modulation (PWM) is such a headache

Explanation of PWM, when and why it is bad, and possible solutions

www.notebookcheck.net

I do not own any of those.

Gotcha. There are a small amount of people who get eye strain from those devices, I was just curious if the new devices were any better.

 

[happy orchard]

Thanks for offering to help. Do you have any eye strain issues with the 11/XR/iPad Pro 2018?

I've had trouble (eye strain issues, et. al.) with the Apple OLED phones, but I've not had trouble with the XR/11/iPP2018.

 

[kazmac]

Why Pulse-Width Modulation (PWM) is such a headache

Explanation of PWM, when and why it is bad, and possible solutions

www.notebookcheck.net

Gotcha. There are a small amount of people who get eye strain from those devices, I was just curious if the new devices were any better.

Okay. Is there anything I can check for?

I seem to be fine using the SE 2020. Use the Air less.

 

[QuattroRS6]

It’s crazy, isn’t it. So what phone are you trying now?

I reactivated my 11 Pro and iam fine with it, i dont miss anything compared to the 12 Pro and in my opinion the 11 Pro feels better in my Hand and the batterie is better. I also have the latest Galaxy S-Series S9, S10, S20 for testing our Exchange Products and no Problems.

Thanks for offering to help. Do you have any eye strain issues with the 11/XR/iPad Pro 2018?

With the 11 Inch iPad Pro 2018 i had the same Problems like with the 12 Pro. So first i thought it comes from the 120 Hz Panel in the iPad Pro, because i read something in the web that Apple implemented a switch that it works only with 60 Hz, because many People had Problems with nausea and dizziness, but also this Switch didnt help me. But i owned every other iPad since the first iPad ever private and in my company i did not have any Problems. It seems like the cheapest Apple Products are more compatible with my eyes then the expensive ones.

 

[5105973]

My new 12 is here. Oddly at the same brightness setting it’s brighter than the 12 Pro display is and I can focus on the text better on it. Keeping my fingers crossed that everything else goes well with this phone and I can keep it. It is lighter and the weight distribution is better than on my 12 Pro, and that is important to me, too.

 

[Macmelman]

It's very interesting the number of people who contribute to this thread who aren't at all affected by PWM, and are keen to 'prove' those who are affected are either imagining it, mentally/physically dysfunctional or in such a tiny minority that they should simply suck it up or be ignored.

Why would they bother getting involved in conversations that have zero bearing on their life...what is their motive?
Are they genuinely curious to find out more about this, or just Apple fanboys / employees desperate to defend the brand...or simply trolling?

I am a scientist. I try to understand phenomena that don't make sense at first glance. And this does not make sense at all. None of the explanations you are providing here make any sense whatsoever, so this could be very much like people who think are sensitivie to radiowaves in general or wifi. If you feel offended by someone asking questions, that is pretty much your problem. Open a private chat and do not invite me, I will not be offended by that. As long as this is a public conversation, I will keep participating at will, particularly because I have grown quite tired of pseudoscientific BS.

 

[Macmelman]

I strongly disagree trolling is 'good for all of us'.
I think it dilutes the useful relevant information to a meaningless childish futile noise based on imaginary viewpoints.
Anyway, I digress.

I don't think PWM sensitivity is any harder to appreciate than an allergy or unpleasant reaction that some people have, and other people don't. We are not all the same.
There is a reason why these threads exist, and indeed why websites such as notebookcheck go to all the trouble of analysing every device for PWM.
For those affected, it can effectively render the device pretty much useless.

It took manufacturers a few years to rectify their LED screens to be PWM-free. I can only assume enough people complained for them to finally sort it out.
Maybe OLED has to go through a similar 'maturing' process.

We are not trolling. I am asking completely legitimate questions and exposing why your explanations do not make sense from a completely rational perspective. If you are 5 or behave like you are 5, that is your problem.

PWM sensitivity is harder to appreciate than an allergy because we have a perfectly reasonable, scientific, testable explanation for allergies, while we have none for PWM. Even if it is something real, which I am not saying it is not, the explanations provided for it do not make sense. That is all I am pointing out, and I do it because I want to. Again, do not write in public forums if you do not want public participation.

 

[Macmelman]

Neither. I don’t have the issue. But if you took the time to read any of the 100+ pages of the iPhone X thread regarding PWM you’d see testimony of the many who have been seen by ophthalmologists. Or, if you hopped on over to YouTube and did a little search, you’d find tech reviewers who acknowledge and discuss the issue. Orrrrrr, you could even let Google be your friend and read about the science behind PWM and the reasonings of why it may or may not cause issues for certain beings.

You know, maybe a tad bit of due diligence before spouting off as if these people are trying to create fear mongering by discussing something that affects them.

I know what PWM is. Any chance of a scientific article describing PWM sensitivity? You know, because science is very rarely published on Youtube or discussed by tech reviewers. How about a paper in a scientific journal of ophtalmology? That would really help us understand what this is about.

 

[bsmr]

Test Apple iPhone 12 Smartphone - Apple-Handy mit 5G

Experten-Test des Apple iPhone 12. Das neue iPhone 2020 ist auf Wunsch ein buntes Smartphone, das mit einem Handygehäuse aus Aluminium und Glas aufwarten kann. Es ist wasser- und staubdicht und bringt neben dem Apple A14 als Prozessor auch iOS 14 mit.

www.notebookcheck.com

Even worse than older iPhones. 226Hz

 

[The.Glorious.Son]

I know what PWM is. Any chance of a scientific article describing PWM sensitivity? You know, because science is very rarely published on Youtube or discussed by tech reviewers. How about a paper in a scientific journal of ophtalmology? That would really help us understand what this is about.

Are you asking me to research on your behalf? Are you too busy? You know, because using Google can provide you with what you are asking for.

 

[asus389]

We are not trolling. I am asking completely legitimate questions and exposing why your explanations do not make sense from a completely rational perspective. If you are 5 or behave like you are 5, that is your problem.

PWM sensitivity is harder to appreciate than an allergy because we have a perfectly reasonable, scientific, testable explanation for allergies, while we have none for PWM. Even if it is something real, which I am not saying it is not, the explanations provided for it do not make sense. That is all I am pointing out, and I do it because I want to. Again, do not write in public forums if you do not want public participation.

I don't have a rat in this race, but I'd like to point out that at some point in history the mechanism for allergy wasn't understood, the reactions weren't considered reasonable by people who didn't have them, and whole phenomenon wasn't therefore testable or treatable. The validity of an observation doesn't depend on whether there is a pre-exisitng paradigm to explain it or treatment to cure it. (Of course it does help if there is one, it makes understanding the phenomenon and developing treatments more efficient). There are plenty of illnesses or syndromes for which we can observe symptoms in some people some of the time, but we don't know the mechanism, and there is no treatment.

That being said, with respect to this issue, there is a history of people reacting neurologically to certain light frequencies. When one gets an EEG to test for seizures, they will use a strobing light to try to provoke instability. Migraines can be triggered similarly in some people. So I guess in my mind it's not that far fetched to think that some people's nervous systems may find flickering light at different frequencies (what PWM is doing) to be irritating.

 

[elephantnut]

I don't have a rat in this race, but I'd like to point out that at some point in history the mechanism for allergy wasn't understood, the reactions weren't considered reasonable by people who didn't have them, and whole phenomenon wasn't therefore testable or treatable. The validity of an observation doesn't depend on whether there is a pre-exisitng paradigm to explain it or treatment to cure it. (Of course it does help if there is one, it makes understanding the phenomenon and developing treatments more efficient). There are plenty of illnesses or syndromes for which we can observe symptoms in some people some of the time, but we don't know the mechanism, and there is no treatment.

That being said, with respect to this issue, there is a history of people reacting neurologically to certain light frequencies. When one gets an EEG to test for seizures, they will use a strobing light to try to provoke instability. Migraines can be triggered similarly in some people. So I guess in my mind it's not that far fetched to think that some people's nervous systems may find flickering light at different frequencies (what PWM is doing) to be irritating.

Very well put. And honestly, in the grand scheme of things, it's not even that big of a deal; for those of us who are affected and aware of the issue, we can easily just not use the latest smartphone. It sucks, but it makes sense that health research should always prioritise debilitating issues rather than quality of life ones. It's definitely not an ideal situation though - because it's not obviously perceptible, a handful of people may have some of these issues and not realise that it's their smartphone that's causing them.

I'm sure there'll be progress at some stage. OLEDs are on most smartphones now, and we're increasingly using smart lights which also use PWM (albeit typically at a much higher frequency), so more work will likely be put into this in the future. Hell, we've already got this IEEE standard from 2015 around LED frequencies.

If anyone can be bothered putting in the work, you could try to drum up some controversy somewhere and get more visibility on this. Might I suggest the headline: "Is your new iPhone permanently damaging your eyes?", followed by vague testimonials from 'scientists' and something about optokinetics.

 

[Ernie32767]

I know what PWM is. Any chance of a scientific article describing PWM sensitivity? You know, because science is very rarely published on Youtube or discussed by tech reviewers. How about a paper in a scientific journal of ophtalmology? That would really help us understand what this is about.

There is a scientific explanation of PWM sensitivity in the following article, titled “IEEE 1789: A new standard for evaluating flickering LEDs?” at https://www.dial.de/en/blog/article/ieee-1789-a-new-standard-for-evaluating-flickering-leds/ .

For example, from that article:

“2. Flicker perceived unconsciously

Above the flicker fusion frequency flicker is no longer perceived consciously but it can nevertheless have effects on our neurological system. This is because the optic nerve and the cortex can detect stimuli up to 160 Hz, depending on modulation and wave form. In the retina itself stimuli up to 200 Hz have been identified in tests. The effects proven may be headaches, migraine attacks and fatigue; other studies show a reduction in the ability to read and a general deterioration in vision, because the horizontal movement of the eye is impaired. In one study an increased risk of headaches was observed even at 100 Hz with a modulation of >35%.”

That article is cited by another article at https://www.notebookcheck.net/Why-Pulse-Width-Modulation-PWM-is-such-a-headache.270240.0.html .

There’s also an article titled “Calculating the Maximum Safe Flicker According to IEEE PAR1789” at https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.azom.com/amp/article.aspx?ArticleID=14729. That article says “The US DoE suggests that lighting manufacturers and testing laboratories must characterize lighting products for flicker and report the metrics on data sheets.”

Whether iPhones comply with the IEEE 1789 safe flicker guidelines, I don’t know, but I have experienced eye strain bordering on a burning pain sensation after a few minutes of looking at at an iPhone X screen. I returned the iPhone X after about a week with no improvement or adaptation. I’ve noticed similar eye strain on iPhone Xs, 11 Pro, and, to a lesser extent, 11 and recent iPad models. I’m watching this thread for any news about possible improvements in the iPhone 12 models.

 

[asus389]

Very well put. And honestly, in the grand scheme of things, it's not even that big of a deal; for those of us who are affected and aware of the issue, we can easily just not use the latest smartphone. It sucks, but it makes sense that health research should always prioritise debilitating issues rather than quality of life ones. It's definitely not an ideal situation though - because it's not obviously perceptible, a handful of people may have some of these issues and not realise that it's their smartphone that's causing them.

I'm sure there'll be progress at some stage. OLEDs are on most smartphones now, and we're increasingly using smart lights which also use PWM (albeit typically at a much higher frequency), so more work will likely be put into this in the future. Hell, we've already got this IEEE standard from 2015 around LED frequencies.

If anyone can be bothered putting in the work, you could try to drum up some controversy somewhere and get more visibility on this. Might I suggest the headline: "Is your new iPhone permanently damaging your eyes?", followed by vague testimonials from 'scientists' and something about optokinetics.

I actually do think it is kind of a big deal. Smartphones and computers are basically indispensable appliances these days, much like cars and washing machines. People spend hours a day staring at them. If there is a way make the screens in such a way so that people don't have these effects when using them, then they should do that. Every technology has its tradeoffs, but it seems like since most "older" LCD screens don't have this issue, and most "new" OLED screens do, that this is a regression. I wouldn't consider higher contrast a brightness a fair tradeoff for headaches. What good is "better" images on your screen if you can't look at it without feeling sick? Here's hoping the next screen technology doesn't have this issue.

 

[Macmelman]

There is a scientific explanation of PWM sensitivity in the following article, titled “IEEE 1789: A new standard for evaluating flickering LEDs?” at https://www.dial.de/en/blog/article/ieee-1789-a-new-standard-for-evaluating-flickering-leds/ .

For example, from that article:

“2. Flicker perceived unconsciously

Above the flicker fusion frequency flicker is no longer perceived consciously but it can nevertheless have effects on our neurological system. This is because the optic nerve and the cortex can detect stimuli up to 160 Hz, depending on modulation and wave form. In the retina itself stimuli up to 200 Hz have been identified in tests. The effects proven may be headaches, migraine attacks and fatigue; other studies show a reduction in the ability to read and a general deterioration in vision, because the horizontal movement of the eye is impaired. In one study an increased risk of headaches was observed even at 100 Hz with a modulation of >35%.”

That article is cited by another article at https://www.notebookcheck.net/Why-Pulse-Width-Modulation-PWM-is-such-a-headache.270240.0.html .

There’s also an article titled “Calculating the Maximum Safe Flicker According to IEEE PAR1789” at https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.azom.com/amp/article.aspx?ArticleID=14729. That article says “The US DoE suggests that lighting manufacturers and testing laboratories must characterize lighting products for flicker and report the metrics on data sheets.”

Whether iPhones comply with the IEEE 1789 safe flicker guidelines, I don’t know, but I have experienced eye strain bordering on a burning pain sensation after a few minutes of looking at at an iPhone X screen. I returned the iPhone X after about a week with no improvement or adaptation. I’ve noticed similar eye strain on iPhone Xs, 11 Pro, and, to a lesser extent, 11 and recent iPad models. I’m watching this thread for any news about possible improvements in the iPhone 12 models.

I would like to see the source of those statements as no references are listed, In any case, you would agree with me that in any case, those frequencies are much lower than the alledged flickering frequency of OLED screens (which are not discussed at all in that piece of information that only refers to LED lightning.

 

[Macmelman]

Are you asking me to research on your behalf? Are you too busy? You know, because using Google can provide you with what you are asking for.

No it can't. I have tried to find scientific information about this and I haven't been able to find it. All I have seen is people assuming that their headache is due to PWM with less than flimsy scientific evidence, and tech sites agreeing with them based on the same flimsy scientific evidence. In some cases they extrapolate the effects of much lower frequency flicker, such as those caused by LED lights, which are very well recognized, to a much higher frequency flicker (OLED screens) with no basis to do so. And searching in google is not "research", just so you know.

 

[Macmelman]

I don't have a rat in this race, but I'd like to point out that at some point in history the mechanism for allergy wasn't understood, the reactions weren't considered reasonable by people who didn't have them, and whole phenomenon wasn't therefore testable or treatable. The validity of an observation doesn't depend on whether there is a pre-exisitng paradigm to explain it or treatment to cure it. (Of course it does help if there is one, it makes understanding the phenomenon and developing treatments more efficient). There are plenty of illnesses or syndromes for which we can observe symptoms in some people some of the time, but we don't know the mechanism, and there is no treatment.

That being said, with respect to this issue, there is a history of people reacting neurologically to certain light frequencies. When one gets an EEG to test for seizures, they will use a strobing light to try to provoke instability. Migraines can be triggered similarly in some people. So I guess in my mind it's not that far fetched to think that some people's nervous systems may find flickering light at different frequencies (what PWM is doing) to be irritating.

Actually, the validity of an observation may depend on the whether there is a pre-existing paradigm, but let's leave it at that. I am not challenging, as mentioned already, the fact that some people have symptoms. What I am challenging is the reason for them. Similarly, I would not challenge that some people have allergies, but I would question magic tiny fairies tickling your nose in the presence of polen as an explanation to it. I don't question that some people are convinced of seeing strange objects in the sky, but I would challenge any explanation that involves little green man visiting us from Saturn... Can you see the trend here?

There is a history of people reacting to flickering or stroboscopic lights, yes, at frequencies that are much lower than the frequencies at which OLED screens flicker. Not only that, I have not seen anyone here complaining about the same symptoms upon LED light illumination at night, something that produces a flicker of at least half of what the phone does. Could it be that something in the screens that have PWM causes the symptoms besides flicker? Could it be that KNOWING that the screen is OLED and will supposedly flicker causes the symptoms in some people? Has anyone done a proper study on this?

 

[freeagent]

No one has done a proper study, at least that I’m aware of. Just a bunch of finger pointing so far.

 

[dan98]

I am a scientist. I try to understand phenomena that don't make sense at first glance. And this does not make sense at all. None of the explanations you are providing here make any sense whatsoever, so this could be very much like people who think are sensitivie to radiowaves in general or wifi. If you feel offended by someone asking questions, that is pretty much your problem. Open a private chat and do not invite me, I will not be offended by that. As long as this is a public conversation, I will keep participating at will, particularly because I have grown quite tired of pseudoscientific BS.

I am not at ALL offended by people asking questions.
It's those who refuse to accept the side-affects of people struggling with this problem who I have absolutely no time for.
If you are scientist but you still don't have any knowledge of this 'pseudo science' I suggest you do some googling, and find out why Notebookcheck, amongst, others are testing all devices to help people avoid the symptoms.

I struggled badly for years with particular screens, at that time nobody was writing about it or testing for it. When I finally discovered the cause, and was even able to test for it, it was an absolute revelation.
Now I'm able to avoid these screens and am totally symptom-free.
You can expect a reaction if you just want to belittle people's suffering ...especially on a subject which you clearly know nothing about.

 

[elephantnut]

Actually, the validity of an observation may depend on the whether there is a pre-existing paradigm, but let's leave it at that. I am not challenging, as mentioned already, the fact that some people have symptoms. What I am challenging is the reason for them. Similarly, I would not challenge that some people have allergies, but I would question magic tiny fairies tickling your nose in the presence of polen as an explanation to it. I don't question that some people are convinced of seeing strange objects in the sky, but I would challenge any explanation that involves little green man visiting us from Saturn... Can you see the trend here?

There is a history of people reacting to flickering or stroboscopic lights, yes, at frequencies that are much lower than the frequencies at which OLED screens flicker. Not only that, I have not seen anyone here complaining about the same symptoms upon LED light illumination at night, something that produces a flicker of at least half of what the phone does. Could it be that something in the screens that have PWM causes the symptoms besides flicker? Could it be that KNOWING that the screen is OLED and will supposedly flicker causes the symptoms in some people? Has anyone done a proper study on this?

As someone who tends to experiment on themselves, I got here from PC monitors. Years ago, I picked up a cheap IPS monitor. I always manually adjust my brightness based on ambient light, and I was finding that I was getting eyestrain. The monitor was the only variable - my ambient lighting was identical, and I hadn't changed any part of my routine. Switching back to my older monitor fixed it.

So I start to look into it, and find information about PWM in LCD displays. I try a grey overlay while running the display at 100% brightness - and no eyestrain! I point a camera at the display while it's at low brightness, and I see the moving bars that you get on PWM-dimmed displays.

Fast forward a bit, I get an iPhone Xs. Same eyestrain. Note that I owned and used a Galaxy S2 for years without issue, so I thought OLED was fine. Turns out the Galaxy S2 used DC dimming.

It'd have to be one hell of a placebo effect for me to have symptoms with different display technologies, from different manufacturers, years apart, with the only shared variable being PWM.

Actual research is important, but so are all these pages and pages of anecdotal information certainly point to some kind of sensitivity in people to something surrounding PWM.

 

[dan98]

We are not trolling. I am asking completely legitimate questions and exposing why your explanations do not make sense from a completely rational perspective. If you are 5 or behave like you are 5, that is your problem.

PWM sensitivity is harder to appreciate than an allergy because we have a perfectly reasonable, scientific, testable explanation for allergies, while we have none for PWM. Even if it is something real, which I am not saying it is not, the explanations provided for it do not make sense. That is all I am pointing out, and I do it because I want to. Again, do not write in public forums if you do not want public participation.

The person who this response to admitted he WAS trolling.
He then deleted his own post.
Please be clear how this forum works before insulting or belittling people.
By comparing my answers to a 5 year old, it says more about you than it does about me.
Do scientists usually like to resort to calling people 5 year olds on the internet, when they don't get an answer which satisfies them? That's a shame.

If you are genuinely interested in a mature conversation and debate about this then so am I.
But PLEASE if you want to come here and try to deny it exists, why not spend some time looking around on the internet to actually read the causes and symptoms of this problem - it's all out there, and would save you insulting everybody around here who is actually suffering.

 

[freeagent]

I don’t think anyone is here to deny that there is a problem. Look, hundred of pages of posts about this problem exist here in this forum. I am genuinely curious as to what is going on, either with the person, or the hardware. PWM is everywhere. Literally. Look, when we were kids they told us not to sit so close to the TV, remember that? It’s bad for your eyes they said. Then computer screens, take a break after awhile, it’s bad for your eyes. Then cell phones came and obviously they are not good for you either. So something is going on, but what? I am curious.