I think I’m going back to my 11 Pro. I run two lines and my Samsung S20 is on my second line. I put that in for trade to a 12 mini today. The S20 fingerprint sensor never works with my fingerprints, which has been a huge pain in the tail for me and part of why I never tried to make it my main phone. I will send this 12 back and go back to watching videos and reading on my 11 Pro. The mini display should work okay with my eyes well enough for me to use it as an actual phone and quick texting device. It’s not like I couldn’t make a go of it on the 12 if I didn’t have a choice. But the 11 Pro display is more comfortable and with the 12 sometimes running hot for no apparent reason, i just give up.
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iPhone 12 Is iPhone 12 still using PWM OLED?
- Thread starter changguangyu
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It does flicker on 100% brightness also, most flicker occurs at about 25% brightness, but something has been improved compared to previous OLED iPhones - flicker at low brightness levels is less, not as perfect as 8 Plus, but much better than XS and 11 Pro.
Here are the results of some measurements:
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that's because the peak brightness is higher than the 100% brightness, for example, when the phone is in bright ambient light or when the sun shows in a photo or a video
Since 0% in the in brightness settings is far from zero from the point of view of physics, with absolute zero brightness it would be absolute darkness and nothing would be visible on the screen, but since we see the image , then this is not an absolute zero brightness, but just some of its relative value. It's the same with 100% brightness. 100% in the settings is already a reduced brightness from the maximum possible, probably to increase the lifespan and reduce the pixel burnout effect.
I’ve noticed my iPhone 12 flickering easier to detect if I look at a photo within my photo app and switch in and out of it, but I’ve started to notice it while looking on this forum and reading through the posts. I can see the screen sort of flickering lighter and darker I thought st first my eyes were playing tricks on me but realised what it was.
I’ve tried it on every brightness from low to high and with reduced white point on. Reduced white point seems to make it less noticeable but it’s still there. What would people say is the best settings for the screen and the white point settings?
And I’m curious for example if you had white point at 50% and the brightness set to its highest at 100% wouldn’t that just drain your battery faster than say having your phone with no white point on and the phone running at 50% brightness? I’d imagine if there was no white point on and the brightness was 100% that would kill the battery the most but I see a lot of people saying have whitepoint on and brightness set to 100% but surely that drains battery constantly running it at maximum even if you’re indoors for example.
I’ve tried it on every brightness from low to high and with reduced white point on. Reduced white point seems to make it less noticeable but it’s still there. What would people say is the best settings for the screen and the white point settings?
And I’m curious for example if you had white point at 50% and the brightness set to its highest at 100% wouldn’t that just drain your battery faster than say having your phone with no white point on and the phone running at 50% brightness? I’d imagine if there was no white point on and the brightness was 100% that would kill the battery the most but I see a lot of people saying have whitepoint on and brightness set to 100% but surely that drains battery constantly running it at maximum even if you’re indoors for example.
Again, I am not questioning people's suffering. I am questioning the explanation. Your brain cannot detect flickering at above 200Hz. I can't, plain and simple
Not denying it. Just questioning the explanation. Your brain cannot detect flickering at the frequency it happens in these screens. Again, could it be that something else is going on in these screens that causes the eyestrain?
teh 5 year old response, in my view, is this one:
"Why would they bother getting involved in conversations that have zero bearing on their life...what is their motive?
Are they genuinely curious to find out more about this, or just Apple fanboys / employees desperate to defend the brand...or simply trolling?"
Basically "belittling" as you like to say anyone that disagrees not with the existence of the problem, which I don't disagree with, but with the explanation given.
I'm curious to know the mechanism by which your brain, contrary to the brains of everybody else, is able to detect flickering at over 200Hz. You can't simply detect flickering at that frequency. It is physiology.
You don't know that. Because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't register.
Edit: oh I just saw you're a zetetic troll, I know perfectly where these discussions go: absolutely nowhere, while you take great pleasure in the power of superior logic. The religion of immediate proof.
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It's pretty evident from your responses on this thread that you fall into the latter category (troll) of my '5 year old' question.
Proof of that is everywhere, but just as an example, your response above : I'm curious to know the mechanism by which your brain, contrary to the brains of everybody else, is able to detect flickering at over 200Hz.
You're not curious to explore this issue any more than simply trying to prove with your 'science' that people are ignorant, deluded, or confused enough to blame PWM for their problems.
You clearly know nothing about it, and have zero interest in finding out more.
If you were genuinely interested in the topic you would of course be welcome here - as things are your weird motives / troll like behaviour are just a waste of time and space.
Try proving me wrong by coming up with *your* explanation of why people are getting these symptoms when using displays with PWM. That would be your first useful / constructive post on this topic.
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For me IPhone 12 pro works! I am very glad I can continue to use iPhones...
I couldn’t use the xs and used the XR instead but after reading promising reports about the 11 being better on the eye for some I crossed my fingers and ordered the 12 pro... and I have no problems with it! So there Must be some „change“ from the xs to the 12 pro that did the trick at least for me...
I couldn’t use the xs and used the XR instead but after reading promising reports about the 11 being better on the eye for some I crossed my fingers and ordered the 12 pro... and I have no problems with it! So there Must be some „change“ from the xs to the 12 pro that did the trick at least for me...
You can see the flickering?
Your phone is faulty, get it replaced.
Other people here can feel it, in that it causes discomfort and headaches. A high-speed camera can capture it.
But human eyes are not equipped to see a >200 Hz flicker. That means your phone is not working correctly.
Your phone is faulty, get it replaced.
Other people here can feel it, in that it causes discomfort and headaches. A high-speed camera can capture it.
But human eyes are not equipped to see a >200 Hz flicker. That means your phone is not working correctly.
There are a multitude of things we can’t always detect/perceive with our senses that are harmful to us, like radiation. And most people are fine around flashing lights and can have fun at a concert and enjoy a laser light show. But people suffering epilepsy cannot. I cannot. I risk getting a migraine seizure.
It’s not been fully ruled out by my neurologist if I have epilepsy, but my migraine seizures are a very near neighbor in that the potential triggers are pretty much the same. It’s the precise type and nature of the seizures that is in question and would determine my ultimate diagnosis. Since I have been able to identify and therefore avoid my triggers, my neurologist is leaving my “case” open ended because a formal diagnosis of epilepsy would subject me to unnecessary legal constraints under current laws in my state. Unfortunately these laws completely lack nuance and would restrict me unnecessarily.
Also, the more years I put menopause past me, the less easily I will be triggered. The doctor doesn’t want me permanently legally constrained by a condition that likely will become impermanent.
At their extreme, my seizures and the aftermath resemble more a mild stroke than most typical epileptic seizures. I don’t lose consciousness or awareness. I can function in the middle of most of them. I just lose my speech and sometimes lose partial control over one of my hands for a few minutes. I can also sometimes temporarily lose the ability to understand what is said to me and the ability to read and write. But that’s a very rare and extreme reaction to a trigger. Usually I just feel a weird pressure in my head and suffer suddenly photosensitivity.
I had one of these rare extreme seizures after watching a movie on my XS Max and then later trying to read text on the display while in the kitchen where my husband had recently installed a new brand of LED bulb in our recessed light fixture. The bulb itself gave me eye aches and was quickly replaced. The XS Max display was questionable. Something about the two together did not sit well with my brain. I lost my ability to speak for several hours. It took me a little over a month to feel completely normal and in that time I couldn’t use any OLED displays, even ones I was fine with before. I could actually see the flicker, I was so hyper sensitized
By that point my migraine condition had been well documented and we knew exactly what it was that had happened to me and what the trigger was.
We just don’t know exactly what goes on in my brain from start to finish with the neurotransmitters and all of that. If my neurologist knows, she hasn’t sat down to tell me. And to be frank, I have a hard time deciphering her accent, so a long explanation, if she were to provide one to a layman like me, is something I likely would not be able to follow, let alone try to recreate here to satisfy your “scientific” curiosity.
Besides, sharing my medical condition is NOT for anyone’s entertainment or to alleviate boredom or idle curiosity. I’m trying to help others also suffering. It’s for them that I’m taking the time to address your points at all.
But if by chance you ever do find yourself one day confronted by a display or lighting that makes you sick, I will be here in support of you, too. I don’t hold grudges. I just wish you were kinder and more respectful of what the rest of us are enduring even if you don’t understand it yourself and lack first hand experience. People who suffer rare conditions feel self conscious and marginalized enough as it is.
I’m not on any medications because if I avoid triggers, I lead quite a normal life. In addition to struggling with some things that flicker and flash, I am triggered by soy. I can eat some soy products, but a big block of tofu or a vegan burger is out of the question. Soy affects hormones and hormones do play a role in migraines as well. My migraines were most manifest during puberty and menopause. Many things play a role in migraines. It’s a complex condition with many manifestations and many potential triggers. It can be exacerbated at different stages of life.
In fact it would not surprise me if we are to learn a migraine is a perfectly normal reaction from the brain to irritation. Some people may just be more easily irritated than others.
There was someone who posted to the forum that he had never had a migraine in his life, but his first one ever that was triggered by his iPhone OLED display landed him in the ER.
I wouldn't spend too much time trying to explain it to that guy - he has his own agenda and isn't remotely interested in what's actually causing the problem.
He'll be along again soon to question your sanity, or to downplay your symptoms in an arrogant / patronising way.
I fortunately don't suffer from any of the symptoms you suffer except from PWM (O)LED screens.
Even LED light bulbs are totally fine for me, and I've never had a migraine.
Incidentally, interesting (and a relief) to see the new Macbook Air / Pro sticking with LED screens - it seems like we won't be locked out of all the new devices for now.
He'll be along again soon to question your sanity, or to downplay your symptoms in an arrogant / patronising way.
I fortunately don't suffer from any of the symptoms you suffer except from PWM (O)LED screens.
Even LED light bulbs are totally fine for me, and I've never had a migraine.
Incidentally, interesting (and a relief) to see the new Macbook Air / Pro sticking with LED screens - it seems like we won't be locked out of all the new devices for now.
I tried two iPhone 12 Pros, both gave me very dry eyes. I'm currently using an iPhone 12 (non Pro) which works perfectly fine for me. It is noticeable that the Pros had displays from another manufacturer because the displays were slighty more yellow, a little duller and had almost no color shift when viewing from an angle. The iPhone 12 I'm currently using has whiter whites, crisper colors but has way more color shift when viewing from an angle. It seems like it is very different from the displays from the Pro.
I wanted to keep the 12 Pro but could not stand the display. The 12 is great btw. I'm gonna give the Pro Max a try.
I wanted to keep the 12 Pro but could not stand the display. The 12 is great btw. I'm gonna give the Pro Max a try.
Just curious, do you PWM sufferers have problems with other newer phones like the new SE? My wife is now taking these pills to help with vertigo, and I cant say for sure but do you think her new SE could be contributing? Did you have problems with your SE2? I have a hard time believing it could be her phone, but I don't know everything and cannot claim to, so I come to you..
Like I told him, my reply wasn’t so much for him but for people who find this topic and are suffering themselves. My hope is that everything I learned from suffering atypical migraines and going through the journey of learning about it, both from established sources of information and from my own trial and error with my doctors, will help them sort their own condition out.
Most people have a preconception of what a migraine is and are often shocked and surprised when something triggers an atypical migraine in them. Unfortunately, as we become increasingly surrounded by technology that pulses and flickers or does something else that can conflict with human biology, more people will find their own limits to what their biology is will tolerate gracefully.
Yes, it's true that new technology just sometimes feels like a big experiment in finding the limits of what we can all bear before our bodies crap out:/
In your case PWM-stress manifests itself in migraines, in mine and some others it triggers the balance mechanism and gives BPPV-type symptoms. Also for some it gives eye pain / strain and watery-eye symptoms.
It's clear to me that PWM puts undue stress on the body and it's interesting how that manifests in quite a wide range of symptoms in different people, or indeed none at all for those that can handle it.
I read these symptoms as a simple warning to stop or change what you're doing to avoid damage to the body. In my case I was forced to keep going due to a workplace situation - in the end I started to suffer from ongoing problems, even after the screen was removed. Dangerous stuff.
I have had problems off and on with vertigo but I can’t say for sure that had anything to do with my iPhone displays. I really don’t know. Figuring all of this out is a work in progress. Vertigo can have so many causes. When Covid is over I need to meet up with my doctor to rule out other issues like high cholesterol and insulin resistance and so forth. Even then, those things might be root causes or predispose me to experience certain symptoms, but having those conditions won’t necessarily exhonorate technology as a trigger. It’s all frustratingly complicated at times.
My poor mother-in-law had vertigo for decades and we never found out the cause. She didn’t start using iPhones until she was in her 70’s.
The only way your wife might know is to stop using her phone for awhile. But the fact she is on medicine is going to render any change inconclusive.
iPhone SE2 doesn’t use pwm as far as I know. But another forum member says it uses some kind of dithering which does result in something similar in terms of flashing parts of the display. If I can find that conversation again I’ll try to link you to it.
I do also have some problems with the SE2 screen. I’d get a white shimmer at the periphery of my vision. It would go away when I stopped using the phone. That’s one reason I didn’t mind trading it away to help my daughter get a discount on her phone.
Even though there is pwm on my iPhone 11 Pro, I can use the display with no problems. A device having or not having pwm isn’t the only factor to consider when dealing with odd symptoms. Again, complicated.
Like, there are many flashing lights I have no problems with. I have a ton of fun at amusement parks. But strobes set to a certain frequency or laser light shows will cause me to lose my ability to speak really fast! I’ll try to talk and it’s like I’ve suddenly got Tourette’s. Or gibberish comes out.
If you ever Google “newscaster speaks gibberish” well that’s sort of like what happens to me. The newscaster who was recorded doing that was suffering a migraine at the time. Conspiracy theorists claimed she was a clone that malfunctioned. 🙄
Hello my friends, I am one of the PWM affected minority and I have created this account in order to participate in discussion about it now and in the future. In addition it will be handy to use the Ignore function to hide posts by a couple of users posting in this thread who have frustrated me by making useless comments.
I noticed that Notebookcheck did not post a review of the 12 pro in either English or German, only the iPhone 12.
I have found that they have posted this article about the PWM specifically in the 12 Pro here in German only. I enclose the link to the German and also a translation.
German
English Translation (Google)
It seems that with this device, the 12 Pro, Apple have changed things somewhat from the 11 Pro and the devices before it. The frequency changes at least 3 times throughout the brightness range this time.
I noticed that Notebookcheck did not post a review of the 12 pro in either English or German, only the iPhone 12.
I have found that they have posted this article about the PWM specifically in the 12 Pro here in German only. I enclose the link to the German and also a translation.
German
English Translation (Google)
It seems that with this device, the 12 Pro, Apple have changed things somewhat from the 11 Pro and the devices before it. The frequency changes at least 3 times throughout the brightness range this time.