Is This Reaction Normal?

[ihatetoregister]

Um, what? Do you remember all the issues with the Surface Pro 4 when Skylake came out? Is that what you would have wanted instead of waiting a year?

I have no idea what is the damn obsession with processor generations. It is not like Kaby Lake offers 5,000% performance boost.

I really, REALLY don't think this is why Apple waited more than a year to release the mbp

As for the "obsession", I could have used a better CPU earlier thank you very much. Or a better one now, thank you very much too.
For Kaby Lake there 's the performance boost (which I agree is small, but then again you'd pay 300$ to gain 6% performance by maxing out your 13", that means you do care about small performance boost) and more importantly the TDP. How can you say it doesn't matter ?
The Kaby Lake in the Razer Stealth Blade has a TDP of 15W, to be compared to the 28W of the one in mbp 13" !!
I mean come on, if the role were reversed wouldn't you be gloating about how superior is the mbp, frankly ?

The battery being crappy too, it would have been REALLY useful to get a processor with lower TDP.
But hey, that's not how you make the highest margin in the industry, you do that by peddling outdated hardware ;-)

 

[spacebro]

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. There are some people that need a $5,000 Quadro instead of a GTX 1080.

I would be thrilled if apple would sell us either that quadro or the gtx 1080. None of my apps need a quadro, would still get it if thats all apple offered.

 

[Ethosik]

I really, REALLY don't think this is why Apple waited more than a year to release the mbp

As for the "obsession", I could have used a better CPU earlier thank you very much. Or a better one now, thank you very much too.
For Kaby Lake there 's the performance boost (which I agree is small, but then again you'd pay 300$ to gain 6% performance by maxing out your 13", that means you do care about small performance boost) and more importantly the TDP. How can you say it doesn't matter ?
The Kaby Lake in the Razer Stealth Blade has a TDP of 15W, to be compared to the 28W of the one in mbp 13" !!
I mean come on, if the role were reversed wouldn't you be gloating about how superior is the mbp, frankly ?

The battery being crappy too, it would have been REALLY useful to get a processor with lower TDP.
But hey, that's not how you make the highest margin in the industry, you do that by peddling outdated hardware ;-)

You do know that the touch bar took more than a week to develop right?
A 15w processor is weaker performance wise than a 28w processor. You know this right?

 

[ihatetoregister]

You do know that the touch bar took more than a week to develop right?

Aren't we saying the same thing ( That Apple didn't wait to implement Skylake because of the early Skylake problems ? ) ?

A 15w processor is weaker performance wise than a 28w processor. You know this right?

... Are you trolling ? Or you're serious ? I really can't tell.
If trolling, it's not cool to waste time for everyone.
If you were serious, performance are unrelated to TDP. TDP is simply a measure of the cooling required to cool down a CPU (I can't remember if it's at max use or average use). You can think of it as some sort of heatsink performance.
In most cases (and really, most), a CPU with lower TDP yields better battery life.

 

[Ethosik]

Aren't we saying the same thing ( That Apple didn't wait to implement Skylake because of the early Skylake problems ? ) ?



... Are you trolling ? Or you're serious ? I really can't tell.
If trolling, it's not cool to waste time for everyone.
If you were serious, performance are unrelated to TDP. TDP is simply a measure of the cooling required to cool down a CPU (I can't remember if it's at max use or average use). You can think of it as some sort of heatsink performance.
In most cases (and really, most), a CPU with lower TDP yields better battery life.

Um yeah. Higher performing processors require more to cool it, which means higher TDP. SO better processors have higher TDP.

 

[MH01]

So a jack of all trades except for any graphic intensive trades.

A jack of all trades excels at none to be fair

 

[ihatetoregister]

Um yeah. Higher performing processors require more to cool it, which means higher TDP. SO better processors have higher TDP.

This is just so wrong. And that's also what is wrong on this forum with the "OMG APPLE YOU'RE SO SHINY !!1" fanboys.

Impossible to have a discussion, you'd rather be bickering eternally that reading an answer or verifying yourself.
Unless it is, again, trolling, which I'm leaning towards now.

1) I literally gave you an example, above, of lower TDP with better performances, Kaby Lake having much lower TDP than Skylake for slightly better performances. TDP is unrelated to performance. It's a measure of HEATING.
Just, check it yourself. I even give you the references so you don't have to search what is in a mbp or a razer. Core i7-7500 U vs Core i5-6267U.
What more do you possibly need ?

2) You're literally one Google search away from benchmarks to verify what I'm saying. Do it please.

3) If you stops a second and think about it, if higher TDP meant better performance, then it's about time to get back this Pentium 4 Prescott in your mbp (or older CPUs) ! With about 90w of TDP, surely it will beat this measly 28w skylake and be three times as powerful ! (it's not)

4) Heat as a mesure of performance is nonsense.

It's ok to not know, it's not ok to waste everyone's time because you don't like that someone is unsatisfied by their machine so you'll answer against it no matter what.
[doublepost=1483125674][/doublepost]

A jack of all trades excels at none to be fair

Which incidentally is the perfect description for this mbp iteration

 

[BarracksSi]

If heat were a proper measure of performance, all of our computers would be glowing like the Sun since they're all much more powerful than the ENIAC.

 

[Ethosik]

This is just so wrong. And that's also what is wrong on this forum with the "OMG APPLE YOU'RE SO SHINY !!1" fanboys.

Impossible to have a discussion, you'd rather be bickering eternally that reading an answer or verifying yourself.
Unless it is, again, trolling, which I'm leaning towards now.

1) I literally gave you an example, above, of lower TDP with better performances, Kaby Lake having much lower TDP than Skylake for slightly better performances. TDP is unrelated to performance. It's a measure of HEATING.
Just, check it yourself. I even give you the references so you don't have to search what is in a mbp or a razer. Core i7-7500 U vs Core i5-6267U.
What more do you possibly need ?

2) You're literally one Google search away from benchmarks to verify what I'm saying. Do it please.

3) If you stops a second and think about it, if higher TDP meant better performance, then it's about time to get back this Pentium 4 Prescott in your mbp (or older CPUs) ! With about 90w of TDP, surely it will beat this measly 28w skylake and be three times as powerful ! (it's not)

4) Heat as a mesure of performance is nonsense.

It's ok to not know, it's not ok to waste everyone's time because you don't like that someone is unsatisfied by their machine so you'll answer against it no matter what.
[doublepost=1483125674][/doublepost]
Which incidentally is the perfect description for this mbp iteration

Don't you dare say things like that again. I am a fanboy for talking about processors? Fine. I'm sick of this place. So more powerful processors don't require more to cool? Really? Physics means nothing? A 1Ghz processor is just as easy to cool as a 3Ghz processor? The 3Ghz is more powerful. Oh it does need more power to cool it? So a faster processor DOES have a higher TDP then right?

Sigh. I'm not comparing a P4 to a Skylake am I? I am comparing a high TDP Skylake in the 15" MacBook Pro vs the AVAILABLE low TDP Kaby Lake.

So just because "OMG!!! New Processor Generation" automatically makes it better? There is no suitable Kaby Lake for these systems. So they are using the best processor generation available. This whole obsession with processor generations needs to stop.

See a comparison of the best Kaby Lake available right now, and the middle processor for the 15" 2016 MacBook Pro - http://processors.specout.com/compare/1892-1969/Intel-Core-i7-6820HQ-vs-Intel-Core-i7-7500U

15w TDP processors are for light tasks. I have not seen a 15w TDP processor compete with 45w TDP processor. Again. I am not comparing a Pentium 4 here. Why did you even bring that into the discussion? When was a Pentium 4 released? How is that even relevant in this discussion when we are at the end of Skylake and the beginning of Kaby Lake?

Kaby Lake might drop down to 40w TDP. That's not what I am saying that higher TDP = better performance ALWAYS. I am saying comparing a 15w TDP processor (current best Kaby Lake and what a lot of people here want for some reason) and a 45w TDP processor, the higher one is better. AGAIN NOT TALKING ABOUT PENTIUM 4 HERE.

 

[therealseebs]

TDP isn't unrelated to performance. There's a strong correlation between TDP and performance within processors built with similar technology. New releases can, and do, get you significant increases in performance for similar or even lower power... But for any given generation of hardware, you can generally get better performance from a 30W CPU than you can from a 15W.

So, sure, it's true that a 10-year-old Xeon might use more power than a modern laptop chip... But that doesn't mean that there's not a clear performance/heat tradeoff at any given time. And the MBP line has, since the first MBP shipped, always had insufficient cooling to handle a mid-range or higher GPU and CPU at the same time, while laptops that could actually run those parts and keep cool were larger and had worse power efficiency, and usually shorter battery life. (Sometimes they have enough more battery to sorta make up for the power drain.)

 

[lobo1978]

Has the release of other Apple products been met with such division inside the Mac community or is there something different about this product

Apple is the only one mac producer (by definition) - and all of its new products create big hype and interest.

On the other hand, there are plenty uninspiring PC manufacturers - producing black boxes updated with new CPU inside -- nothing exciting is happening.

Anyone notice new Microsoft SB? Nope - but M$ is trying (especially on this mac forum) capitalize on undecided customers that have not tried used macOS. Honestly, when you try macOS you will never go back to windows, ever.

When you look at the specs only, choice seems to be easy - you can get "more" for your buck with PC. With highly effiecient OS like macOS specs are not comparable 1:1 at all (especially with windows - trust me).

If you value your time and money, want reliability, speed, responsiveness, ease of use -- and first and foremost -- want to do stuff with your computer- mac is the only choice.

 

[ihatetoregister]

TDP isn't unrelated to performance. There's a strong correlation between TDP and performance within processors built with similar technology. New releases can, and do, get you significant increases in performance for similar or even lower power... But for any given generation of hardware, you can generally get better performance from a 30W CPU than you can from a 15W.

Hmmmf. Stretched between joining this dumb never ending bickering or let it go.

If you look at the same generation, same architecture and same brand and then you can see a relation TDP wise.

In other words, this is an extremely stupid way to look at CPU power. Moreover if you look that a chip with twice the TDP, it isn't twice as fast inside the same generation/brand/arch.

I`m sorry but if you can`t understand that, it's pointless to talk about it.

I suggest you email Geekbench and other CPU comparison sites with this genius idea, because man do they waste their time with their setup and and software while they could just look at TDPs </sarcasm>

Not to mention the discussion was comparing between Skylake and Kaby Lake, which are NOT the same generation and architecture.
And in the comparison I posted above, that you can check yourself, Kaby Lake has a much lower TDP for similar (slightly better) perf than the Skylake in the 13"mbp and therefore, would have been a better choice.

*THE END*

 

[Dave410]

If you value your time and money, want reliability, speed, responsiveness, ease of use -- and first and foremost -- want to do stuff with your computer- mac is the only choice.

I was just helping a guy on another forum with his really slow Windows machine and thinking about the hours and hours I've spent maintaining my Windows computers and fixing other people's Windows machines and now the Mac OS is looking pretty good. On the other hand, both of my parents have gotten viruses on their iMacs and they aren't nearly as adventurous on the Internet as I am.

 

[ihatetoregister]

Anyone notice new Microsoft SB? Nope - but M$ is trying (especially on this mac forum) capitalize on undecided customers that have not tried used macOS. Honestly, when you try macOS you will never go back to windows, ever.

I'll pass on the suspicion of "shills" which I think is a bit absurd given that products mentioned as alternatives are Dell, HP - for some reason I can't explain because those are horrendous machines - Razer in my case and Lenovo and sometimes MS.
Also this would be a poor use of resources to go here and deal with the nonsensical fanboys rather than more general places like Reddit.
No, many people are (very) unsatisfied hence the reaction. I`m one of them.

Other than that, I fully agree : You go to macOS, and then Windows looks like a poorly designed, broken OS for old people (and I don't mean old in a bad way, more as "grew up with it and staying up with it").

But this is a problem, because macOS and the Apple walled garden is truly what keeps you in, and then you convince yourself the mbp are "good enough", while in fact they're almost always holding outdated components (or missing others) and cost way too much.
Because Apple is a cheap bastard who wants (and gets!) the highest margin in the industry because we continue buying their products no matter what -mostly because of macOS, and also the hype is strong.
Why did they wait 2.5 years with USB2 while the PC world was on USB3 ? Because they can peddle cheap components. Why did they wait and now suppress HDMI ? To not pay royalties.
etc etc

If I had to pay for my own machine, I would have gone Linux + Win and endure the pain of the dumb OS. This iteration is simply a bad deal.

My hope is that Microsoft is preparing another OS ( could be the reason behind the Ubuntu experiment ).

PS: I laughed at M$ with the dollar sign. Are we back in '95 ? Don't you think nowadays Apple took the place of M$ with its walled garden and purely profit orientated decisions ?
[doublepost=1483175266][/doublepost]

I was just helping a guy on another forum with his really slow Windows machine and thinking about the hours and hours I've spent maintaining my Windows computers and fixing other people's Windows machines and now the Mac OS is looking pretty good. On the other hand, both of my parents have gotten viruses on their iMacs and they aren't nearly as adventurous on the Internet as I am.

Virus on macOS, this has to be an exploit (pun intended)
If you want a fast Windows machine, just buy a high end product of a good brand. You won't get too much problem.
If you want a decent OS which don't require tweaks and weird tricks ( ...mostly), macOS is definitely the right choice.

 

[symphara]

You go to macOS, and then Windows looks like a poorly designed, broken OS for old people (and I don't mean old in a bad way, more as "grew up with it and staying up with it").

Personally I grew up with Linux and SunOS (before it was called Solaris), but I have no idea what you're on about.

Windows is fine. I use both macOS and Windows on a daily basis, and in many ways, Windows is a better OS. There's literally nothing I do on macOS that I cannot do on Windows, or I have trouble doing on Windows.

 

[villicodelirant]

Personally I grew up with Linux and SunOS (before it was called Solaris), but I have no idea what you're on about.

Windows is fine. I use both macOS and Windows on a daily basis, and in many ways, Windows is a better OS. There's literally nothing I do on macOS that I cannot do on Windows, or I have trouble doing on Windows.

Oh, I do know what he's on about.

macOS is prettier, warmer, more comfy.
It's like a designer desk, like writing with a $1000 fountain pen instead of a cheap plastic Bic.
The designers really put some thought into making you feel good when using the OS.
There are little touches here and there that really elicit a completely different emotional response.

And generally have no relevance to the ability do any actual work or the efficiency in doing it.

The mirror of ihatetoregister's statement would be something along the lines of: "you start doing everything in an emacs session under fvwm and then macOS looks like a designer OS for young, cool hipsters (and I don't mean hipsters in a bad way, more as 'their primary concern is not putting food on the table with a maximum return on a minimum of investment')"

 

[philosopherdog]

Almost all Apple products are met with huge outcries. The more innovative they are the more negative stuff you read. Happened with the iPhone in a huge way. Happened with the iPad. Remember all the maxipad jokes? It happens any time they try to remove some port. It's mostly click bait. People love hating anything that dares to be better. Read reviews from trusted resources only and as soon as a review starts down the same old complains about dongles move on.

 

[ihatetoregister]

( We're straying a bit off-topic OP, sorry ! )

Personally I grew up with Linux and SunOS (before it was called Solaris), but I have no idea what you're on about.

Windows is fine. I use both macOS and Windows on a daily basis, and in many ways, Windows is a better OS. There's literally nothing I do on macOS that I cannot do on Windows, or I have trouble doing on Windows.

Oh, I do know what he's on about.

If you have no problems with Windows, all the better for you !

For me, here's what I can't stand :
- I find the options are not where you expect them ( I'm not talking about the shut down computer which is located in the start menu, although that's a good example of the Windows stuff)
- I really don't like the "close button isn't, in fact, closing the program" paradigm
- I find the explorer messy, especially in the latest versions
- I haven't looked into it in a while so this might have changed, but back in 2006 / 2007 this word a better machine for web development. By far. The shell, the editors with package managers (textmate I think ? this was a long time ago) etc.
It was life changing to do development on it.
AND it didn't suck as an OS for non-dev use, contrary to Linux distros (again, at the time)
- There`s always something that breaks or doesn't work or needs to be fixed.
- Give macOS to your parents, and you'll never be their personal hotline anymore. It's now an "old saying", and I experienced it myself recently again.
- This is one power hungry OS. Oh my, so power hungry.
- The OS are an horrible feel. This is completely subjective and a general impression, but that's how I feel using it.
- The UI. If you think the UI below is normal, intuitive and pretty, I have 2 words for you : Stockholm Syndrome
(and it's not even including the windows bottom nav which makes it even uglier!)

So yeah, maybe I'll make the jump back anyway because I find Apple so disappointing these days, but I still think it's a terrible OS.
Now if I could have macOS on the Razer (and I mean, 100% compatible) or Lenovo Yoga with OLED screen, then I'd be super happy !

On this, I wish you all a happy new year since it's going to be that here in a few hours and it's probably ongoing in US !

 

[MacRobert10]

I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, but his comment is just silly. First of all, there is no chance the USB-C "doesn't catch on", because there is no alternative in sight, literally. Unless you believe the industry doesn't like to make new things that people need to buy and is happy with the status quo. It's inevitable as faster CPUs or bigger drives. Not proven my ass.

Second, it is quite wrong to measure quality by quantity. The number of different ports is not an advantage in itself. The reason there were so many ports was the lack of unified standards - and it took decades to finally get to a point where everyone - from Apple and Google to Microsoft and Dell come to a single, universal port. I can attach a monitor to it, or a Wacom tablet or an external drive - and no, for those I don't need dongles or adapters. It's probably the greatest convenience in modern computing since the advent of SSD drives. And that "Old Guy Tom" is claiming having a dedicated power port, firewire and optical drive is somehow....

No. You know what, I'm not going to go into that again - I might as well try to convince a brick wall.

Nobody's going to argue that USB-C is a good idea. The entire problem is the lack of available devices. Period! To sell a computer that needs adapters to be put into use right now is idiotic. To adapt to this standard every manufacturer needs to re-design boards as well as completely change production. This might have been a good idea two or three years from now, but now? No. It's poorly thought out.

I seem to remember people praising the greatness of the the Thunderbolt a few years ago. Where are all the Thunderbolt drive enclosures? Where are all the Thunderbolt drives? It didn't take off.

 

[BarracksSi]

I seem to remember people praising the greatness of the the Thunderbolt a few years ago. Where are all the Thunderbolt drive enclosures? Where are all the Thunderbolt drives? It didn't take off.

Still can be used with a USB-C style connector.

 

[Dave410]

Virus on macOS, this has to be an exploit (pun intended)
If you want a fast Windows machine, just buy a high end product of a good brand. You won't get too much problem.
If you want a decent OS which don't require tweaks and weird tricks ( ...mostly), macOS is definitely the right choice.

I'm sorta tracking on the pun, but both my parents really did get viruses on the iMacs I bought for them awhile back and they don't go to those questionable Internet sites where you can catch something. (They're 88 and 87 years old.) Furthermore, I bought the iMacs in about 2009, I think, and both have really slowed down since then. Dad said that after Christmas they're going to take them to the Genius Bar and ask the techs to restore them to the factory state and then they'll reinstall all the apps. That's very similar to what I do with my Windows machines.

 

[ihatetoregister]

I'm sorta tracking on the pun, but both my parents really did get viruses on the iMacs I bought for them awhile back and they don't go to those questionable Internet sites where you can catch something. (They're 88 and 87 years old.) Furthermore, I bought the iMacs in about 2009, I think, and both have really slowed down since then. Dad said that after Christmas they're going to take them to the Genius Bar and ask the techs to restore them to the factory state and then they'll reinstall all the apps. That's very similar to what I do with my Windows machines.

Super sorry if this wasn't clear, it was just a joke on the fact that getting a virus on macOs is super rare , that's all !

 

[BarracksSi]

Dad said that after Christmas they're going to take them to the Genius Bar and ask the techs to restore them to the factory state and then they'll reinstall all the apps. That's very similar to what I do with my Windows machines.

They probably got phished. Ever find out any more details about what happened?

 

[Dave410]

They probably got phished. Ever find out any more details about what happened?

No, not really, but the Apple techs were able to fix it over the phone.

 

[xraydoc]

I'm sorta tracking on the pun, but both my parents really did get viruses on the iMacs I bought for them awhile back and they don't go to those questionable Internet sites where you can catch something. (They're 88 and 87 years old.) Furthermore, I bought the iMacs in about 2009, I think, and both have really slowed down since then. Dad said that after Christmas they're going to take them to the Genius Bar and ask the techs to restore them to the factory state and then they'll reinstall all the apps. That's very similar to what I do with my Windows machines.

And since 2009 did they get updated to close security holes or are they still running 2009-era Adobe Flash?