iTunes 8.2.1 Reportedly Breaks Palm Pre Syncing

[fat phil]

Spotify, pandora, last.fm, orb.

There are cloud services today, they only need to be better.

There-in lies the catch..."they only need to be better"...

I'm all for centralised (or distributed-but-one-point-of-contact, if that's what cloud is) data - I absolutely loath iTunes for not letting me share syncing between two computers - but I wouldn't want it as the preferred solution as long as we don't have guaranteed hi-speed connectivity.

I only get GSM in many places on a 3G S, and even receiving email becomes a pain then.

Speaking of centralised data, the launch of MobileMe is a great example of how things can go horrendously wrong. I don't want to go through that -ever- again.

 

[NightStorm]

There is a security aspect to this as well. Nowadays, any software has to be made resistant against hacker attacks. That is done in two ways: For any information that goes into your software, you check whether it comes from a trusted source, and you check the information itself. You do both, to get twice the security.

In this case, iTunes communicates with devices connected to it. Previous versions believed (in the case of the Pre incorrectly) that a device plugged into iTunes that claims it is an iPod is indeed an iPod. So if there are any vulnerabilities in iTunes, a hacker could build a USB device that claims to be an iPod, and might be able to hack into your Macintosh just by plugging that device into your MacBook while you are not watching. So obviously Apple now adds more checks to see that any device claiming an iPod _is_ indeed an iPod.

(For example, someone could make a device that pretends to be a 160 GB iPod classic but really contains a wireless transmitter, and use it to steal your music and videos).

Exactly my point earlier... this should be looked at as nothing more than a security fix. Can you imagine the PR if this would have actually happened?

 

[fat phil]

Yay!! I hate choice. Good for Apple, limiting our choices by deliberately breaking compatibility with 3rd party solutions. You'd never see Microsoft going out of their way to break compatibility like that for their customers' good.

And I'm sure Microsoft wish they could get away with it. Who put DRM in their products first? Apple. Who followed? Microsoft.*

We live in a world of pots and kettles, chickens and eggs, greedy people and other greedy people by a different name.

*I might actually be wrong about this, but the meaning is served - there is no "good guy".


Edit: I have to ask having just re-read... was that sarcasm?

 

[ouimetnick]

I thought i remember Steve telling people how bad other phones and MP3 players are because none of them work with iTunes. Well Apple, the Pre worked with iTunes UNTIL YOU BROKE IT! So, why can't other MP3 players use iTunes?

 

[fat phil]

I thought i remember Steve telling people how bad other phones and MP3 players are because none of them work with iTunes. Well Apple, the Pre worked with iTunes UNTIL YOU BROKE IT! So, why can't other MP3 players use iTunes?

Well that explains it! He had to break it otherwise his previous statement would have been a lie.

You do know you can't ever call Apple liars?

 

[edesignuk]

Good!! I dislike thieves.

Thieves? What were they thieving?

 

[fat phil]

Hang on...

"If Apple chooses to disable media sync in iTunes, it will be a direct blow to their users who will be deprived of a seamless synchronization experience,"

Shouldn't that be:

"If Apple chooses to disable media sync in iTunes, it will be a direct blow to our users who will be deprived of a seamless synchronization experience,"

?

Funny...

 

[Kadman]

Let's see, the way that scanning for gapless playback has been broken since it was created many moons ago (essentially cripples the machine for those with large music libraries - oh and no way to turn the scan off permanently). However, blocking people who want to use their software, many of whom would happily buy music through their service, becomes priority one so that they can smite those who aren't using their hardware. Brilliant move!

 

[pdjudd]

Well, several artists did benefit greatly from iTunes adverts. Did anyone know Leslie Feist or Yael Naim before the adverts?

I don't even know of them now.....

 

[Kadman]

There is a security aspect to this as well. Nowadays, any software has to be made resistant against hacker attacks. That is done in two ways: For any information that goes into your software, you check whether it comes from a trusted source, and you check the information itself. You do both, to get twice the security.

In this case, iTunes communicates with devices connected to it. Previous versions believed (in the case of the Pre incorrectly) that a device plugged into iTunes that claims it is an iPod is indeed an iPod. So if there are any vulnerabilities in iTunes, a hacker could build a USB device that claims to be an iPod, and might be able to hack into your Macintosh just by plugging that device into your MacBook while you are not watching. So obviously Apple now adds more checks to see that any device claiming an iPod _is_ indeed an iPod.

(For example, someone could make a device that pretends to be a 160 GB iPod classic but really contains a wireless transmitter, and use it to steal your music and videos).

That's a pretty bad example. In fact, if it was reported as an iPOD the device would have LESS access to the data on your Mac. It would only be able to sync (with iTunes). If you just grab a USB device off the shelf they can grab the actual files including your documents, mail, music, movies, etc.

 

[Goona]

I didn't just mean an App store I meant the entire iTMS (music, movies, tv shows, etc.,).


Lethal

They could just develop software to sync with itunes like RIM did.

 

[pdjudd]

And I'm sure Microsoft wish they could get away with it. Who put DRM in their products first? Apple. Who followed? Microsoft.*

Microsoft created WMA so that it could have DRM in it but they weren't the first I'm betting.

 

[Goona]

Yay!! I hate choice. Good for Apple, limiting our choices by deliberately breaking compatibility with 3rd party solutions. You'd never see Microsoft going out of their way to break compatibility like that for their customers' good.

Yeah I wonder why Microsoft isn't allowing Pre users to sync the Zune desktop with their Pres.

 

[alFR]

Your reasoning is just wrong. Apple makes iPhone sync-able with outlook and IE favorites, did MS update them and break the sync?

Apple wrote a third-party sync client for the iPhone (iTunes), it didn't hack the desktop version of Activesync to make the iPhone pretend to be a WM phone. In fact, it actually licensed Exchange ActiveSync from MS to do OTA syncing from Exchange to the iPhone. Rather different than the current Apple/Palm situation IMHO.

It might help if everyone went back and read all the posts in this thread by nagromme and pjudd, who seem to be about the only people who have a proper grasp of the facts...

 

[fat phil]

Yeah I wonder why Microsoft isn't allowing Pre users to sync the Zune desktop with their Zunes.

Absolutely correct, and the same with other phone+software combos.

Palm users are pissed because Palm couldn't be bothered to write some software for their own handset.

But hey, we all know where to find 100,000 developers...just boot up iTunes and browse the App Store

Ultimately Palm missed a trick. There are some fine alternatives to iTunes out there, and it would have saved bucks and face to get together with any one of them for a Palm-branded fork.

I guess some people just lack vision.

 

[whooleytoo]

Edit: I have to ask having just re-read... was that sarcasm?

Yes, as sarcastic as I could possibly be.

This bugs me - it's just the kind of thing people used to slate Microsoft for a decade ago; deliberately breaking compatibility so as to keep a dominant market position.

As long as Palm relies on iTunes, they'll always be playing catch-up to Apple; they'll never be a threat. The only people really being hurt by this are iTunes users who use a Pre.

 

[whooleytoo]

Yeah I wonder why Microsoft isn't allowing Pre users to sync the Zune desktop with their Zunes.

I keep forgetting sarcasm doesn't work on the internet. It's precisely the kind of thing Microsoft would do.

Or, more accurately, it's precisely the kind of thing companies in dominant market positions do: break compatibility with the opposition to make it awkward for their customers and to scare their own customers from switching.

 

[Goona]

I keep forgetting sarcasm doesn't work on the internet. It's precisely the kind of thing Microsoft would do.

Or, more accurately, it's precisely the kind of thing companies in dominant market positions do: break compatibility with the opposition to make it awkward for their customers and to scare their own customers from switching.

There is more to it than that. Palm took an advantage of a hack and used it to make the Palm Pre pretend to be an ipod when it clearly is not. They then when to advertise this hack to sell the product. I mean what were they thinking. I don't know how anybody can side with them. Morally it's wrong. Who cares if itunes is dominant, last I checked there are a plethora of options available besides itunes. Palm should have followed the path of the likes of RIM instead of advertising hacks.

 

[Rantipole]

I'm pretty disgusted with anyone who voted "positive" for this.

This is an MS-style move. Actually, no this is worse. This is an Apple-circa-1985 move. Trying to keep everything within their one package, and to hell with anyone trying to work with them. Remember how well that strategy worked?

Let them sync, for crying out loud. Better yet, develop an iTunes app for the Pre! Seriously.

 

[pdjudd]

Either way you and others think this is funny. Funny that the pre can't sync with itunes anymore.

Well there is the iTunes Library XML file - which in hindsight is what they were limited to that data when they had to imitate the iPod.

Yay!! I hate choice. Good for Apple, limiting our choices by deliberately breaking compatibility with 3rd party solutions. You'd never see Microsoft going out of their way to break compatibility like that for their customers' good.

Here's the thing: Choice only exists when the option's are valid. Apple really isn't depriving people of choice because in their minds, Palm was never supposed to be in iTunes in the first place - Palm had to spoof their device. If I forge my identity to get access into a place that had never allowed me, you bed that I would get booted out and whatever credentials I spoofed would be blacklisted. The choice of iTunes should never have presented as an option in the first place because it was never on any officially sanctioned level.

Suppose for some reason, I could no longer live in my house (I was evicted). I do have choices that are present to me and I can certainly say I have choices. I could:
1) Get a new house or appartment
2) Move in with family
3) Move in with a friend
4) Get a hotel
5) Sleep in my car

However I can't legitimately call my #6 choice - go into my neighbors house, pick the lock, and crash on their sofa. Yes, its technically possible to do that and it is a "choice", but its not a realistic choice since I can't presume that my neighbors are ok with that. I am not being denied of choice - I am simply being limited in my choices. Sure the choices can stink: my friends may have a crappy place, my parents can fight with me, Hotels, apartments and houses are expensive, sleeping in the car is legally gray, etc. Palm is the same way. They have choices:
1) Drag and drop on a hard drive icon
2) Develop their own software using Sync services
4) License existing sync solutions.

Technically they can access iTunes, but thats not a valid choice since they don;t have permission from Apple - iTunes is not an open platform and it hasn't been for a long time. Whenever Apple opened up iTunes, it was with licensed partners. It doesn't matter what is technically possible, choice is determined by reasonable legal options. Palm, as far as anyone can tell, did not even seek out that option 5 legally.

I'm pretty disgusted with anyone who voted "positive" for this.

This is an MS-style move. Actually, no this is worse. This is an Apple-circa-1985 move. Trying to keep everything within their one package, and to hell with anyone trying to work with them. Remember how well that strategy worked?

Let them sync, for crying out loud. Better yet, develop an iTunes app for the Pre! Seriously.

For the umpteenth time (and the last time I will bring it up)

That's not choice, thats arrogance to assume that one can do what they want to. No system works that way. Palm can sync with the iTunes library XML file and Sync services like any other device does. They never sought permission to Sync with iTunes. Apple provides (and documents) a valid alternative that several companies utilize. It is not Apple's business to make sure competitors products work - thats the companies job.

 

[DougB541]

Yeah I wonder why Microsoft isn't allowing Pre users to sync the Zune desktop with their Pres.

Zune still not having open API's is my number one complaint about my Zune. Everything else is gravy.

But seriously...I used to use Foxytunes on firefox when I had iTunes...useless now!


But yeah...why is this thread getting so many comments.

We all knew it would happen.

You can still use the older version of iTunes if you want.

Most Pre users probably are using what every other phone (sans iPhone) uses anyway. Drag and drop.

 

[pdjudd]

It might help if everyone went back and read all the posts in this thread by nagromme and pjudd, who seem to be about the only people who have a proper grasp of the facts...

Thanks. It seems like I am sounding like a broken record here.

But yeah...why is this thread getting so many comments.

We all knew it would happen.

*Shrug*. People like to complain I suppose.

 

[Goona]

I'm pretty disgusted with anyone who voted "positive" for this.

This is an MS-style move. Actually, no this is worse. This is an Apple-circa-1985 move. Trying to keep everything within their one package, and to hell with anyone trying to work with them. Remember how well that strategy worked?

Let them sync, for crying out loud. Better yet, develop an iTunes app for the Pre! Seriously.

So now Apple should develop an itunes app for the Pre? So Apple should be doing Palms job, instead of getting of their lazy behind and develop an app to sync with itunes like RIM does, Apple should be doing their job for them, unbelievable.

 

[fat phil]

I'm pretty disgusted with anyone who voted "positive" for this.

This is an MS-style move. Actually, no this is worse. This is an Apple-circa-1985 move. Trying to keep everything within their one package, and to hell with anyone trying to work with them. Remember how well that strategy worked?

Let them sync, for crying out loud. Better yet, develop an iTunes app for the Pre! Seriously.

Letting them sync... I don't think anyone has anything against "them", if you mean Palm Pre users. If anything I expect a lot of people clicking Positive actually empathise with Pre users affected. The big issue is that Palm took the cheap and easy path - to the detriment of it's users.

There are other 3rd party playlist managers that use provided APIs to hook into the iTunes library - it's not exactly kept secret.

Apple wants iTunes to be the desktop manager for iPods and iPhones. It's own software for it's own products. You can not argue that.

This is an ethical argument. Palm did wrong. Apple may have shown their hand sooner than they needed to, but it was going to happen eventually even if it was unintentional. Palm should not have assumed they could circumvent the system. They have a responsibility to paying customers to do it right.

 

[DougB541]

Letting them sync... I don't think anyone has anything against "them", if you mean Palm Pre users. If anything I expect a lot of people clicking Positive actually empathise with Pre users affected. The big issue is that Palm took the cheap and easy path - to the detriment of it's users.

There are other 3rd party playlist managers that use provided APIs to hook into the iTunes library - it's not exactly kept secret.

Apple wants iTunes to be the desktop manager for iPods and iPhones. It's own software for it's own products. You can not argue that.

This is an ethical argument. Palm did wrong. Apple may have shown their hand sooner than they needed to, but it was going to happen eventually even if it was unintentional. Palm should not have assumed they could circumvent the system. They have a responsibility to paying customers to do it right.

With that said, their website even says that "iTunes compatibility with version 8.1 or older."

The customer is not forced to update. The customer really has choices in front of them. Esp. since 8.2 did not have any critical updates associated with it.