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There is more to it than that. Palm took an advantage of a hack and used it to make the Palm Pre pretend to be an ipod when it clearly is not. They then when to advertise this hack to sell the product. I mean what were they thinking. I don't know how anybody can side with them. Morally it's wrong. Who cares if itunes is dominant, last I checked there are a plethora of options available besides itunes. Palm should have followed the path of the likes of RIM instead of advertising hacks.

Why is it morally wrong? Because it relies on a hack?

They're trying to provide a solution for syncing with iTunes - if they used their own standalone tool for syncing music etc. it would be too awkward for the end users who probably already have their media in iTunes. Palm are offering options, Apple are taking them away. I know who I'm siding with.

(p.s. no, I don't own a Pre. I just have a 20 year love/hate relationship with Apple).
 
Yeah I wonder why Microsoft isn't allowing Pre users to sync the Zune desktop with their Pres. :rolleyes:

I wonder if Microsoft would allow Pre users to sync with Windows Media Player. That’s right, they would allow it. So stop this Zune nonsense.
 
Why is it morally wrong? Because it relies on a hack?

They're trying to provide a solution for syncing with iTunes - if they used their own standalone tool for syncing music etc. it would be too awkward for the end users who probably already have their media in iTunes. Palm are offering options, Apple are taking them away. I know who I'm siding with.

(p.s. no, I don't own a Pre. I just have a 20 year love/hate relationship with Apple).

It's morally wrong because they misled Pre buyers.

The APIs that Apple provide to developers allow them to read the contents of your iTunes library. These are public, and well documented.

Realise that any company with a plan has to defend that plan. Apple's statement a month ago made it clear it would defend against 3rd party hacks. If a company doesn't defend early, then it's case becomes harder to defend in the future. They have a plan, and it involves hardware that it manufactures, and 100% support of that and not everyone else's kit.

Move a few years down the line, if they didn't stop Palm's antics. Other manufacturers would copy Palm. Suddenly a lot of people are using 3rd party, unsupported hardware, with iTunes. One day something changes and breaks the connection to half of those users. Who do they complain to?

After-sales support should come from the person who sold you the kit.

Is Palm's example of blaming Apple something you'd consider fair to the customer? You do know they marked the complaint forum as "Solved" don't you? Fair, eh? Best interests of the user?

Ethical?

I don't think so.
 
All the analogies are pointless. There are two main groups here

Those that like itunes not being compatible with 3rd party devices

Those that like itunes being compatible.

For me. I have lots invested in itunes. My library looks great with complete album art. I had my original iphone for 2 yrs. Loved it. Bought it the day it came out. I just like trying new stuff. And the pre worked great with itunes. I got to keep all of my playlists etc. I'm a mac user and now a pre user. And this is unfortunate news. I would just think being more compatible would help apple make more money and satisfy its computer users at the same time. Being compatible didn't hurt anyone. Hasn't apples marketshare increased greatly by being more compatible? Intel chips and windows compatible?

I guess agree to disagree for many of us. The people that don't like more itunes syncing options and those that do...
 
Why is it morally wrong? Because it relies on a hack?

They're trying to provide a solution for syncing with iTunes - if they used their own standalone tool for syncing music etc. it would be too awkward for the end users who probably already have their media in iTunes. Palm are offering options, Apple are taking them away. I know who I'm siding with.

(p.s. no, I don't own a Pre. I just have a 20 year love/hate relationship with Apple).

So there is nothing wrong with a company relying on a hack to sell a product? What if Apple hacked Exchange and Activesync instead of licensing it from them and then advertised it as a feature. I'm sure Microsoft would be sending their lawyers straight at them. But because it's little Palm I guess it makes it alright.

Also I guess its not akward for RIM users who use the solution provided by RIM to sync with Itunes. I mean it's only Palm users who would feel akward.
 
I wonder if Microsoft would allow Pre users to sync with Windows Media Player. That’s right, they would allow it. So stop this Zune nonsense.

Right but Microsoft allows Windows Media Player to be used in this manner but Apple doesn't allow Itunes to be used in this manner so your point is irrelevant. When Microsoft develops a software solution like Zune desktop to sell Zunes like Apple does with Itunes, they lock it down just like Apple. :rolleyes:
 
All the analogies are pointless. There are two main groups here

Those that like itunes not being compatible with 3rd party devices

Those that like itunes being compatible.

For me. I have lots invested in itunes. My library looks great with complete album art. I had my original iphone for 2 yrs. Loved it. Bought it the day it came out. I just like trying new stuff. And the pre worked great with itunes. I got to keep all of my playlists etc. I'm a mac user and now a pre user. And this is unfortunate news. I would just think being more compatible would help apple make more money and satisfy its computer users at the same time. Being compatible didn't hurt anyone. Hasn't apples marketshare increased greatly by being more compatible? Intel chips and windows compatible?

I guess agree to disagree for many of us. The people that don't like more itunes syncing options and those that do...

But just imagine if Palm had talked to Apple instead of just tromping in there. Ok, Apple are hardly going to talk to someone who is clearly trying to copy their hard work, but at least they could then have made a statement to that effect and opened up a real debate, rather than this oh-no-we-got-screwed shenanigans.

I've already made my dislike of Apple's approach to syncing quite clear - it's bloody awful, even with it's own products. But they know where their money is. If anything, I'd like to be able to access the App Store and iTunes store without using iTunes...but that's another discussion, and another pipe-dream. :(
 
However, blocking people who want to use their software, many of whom would happily buy music through their service, becomes priority one so that they can smite those who aren't using their hardware. Brilliant move!
Nobody stops you from buying music from iTMS and drag-n-drop them into any compatible AAC player. iTMS tracks are DRM free. If Palm really care about Pre users, they would simply partner up with another jukebox solution like Songbird, or create their own software to sync with iTunes like Nokia, which is a-okay by Apple.
 
All the analogies are pointless. There are two main groups here

Those that like itunes not being compatible with 3rd party devices

Those that like itunes being compatible.

For me. I have lots invested in itunes. My library looks great with complete album art. I had my original iphone for 2 yrs. Loved it. Bought it the day it came out. I just like trying new stuff. And the pre worked great with itunes. I got to keep all of my playlists etc. I'm a mac user and now a pre user. And this is unfortunate news. I would just think being more compatible would help apple make more money and satisfy its computer users at the same time. Being compatible didn't hurt anyone. Hasn't apples marketshare increased greatly by being more compatible? Intel chips and windows compatible?

I guess agree to disagree for many of us. The people that don't like more itunes syncing options and those that do...

You forgot about those who think palm should have used a legitimate method of adding this capability. If other companies can do it then so can palm.
 
They're trying to provide a solution for syncing with iTunes - if they used their own standalone tool for syncing music etc. it would be too awkward for the end users who probably already have their media in iTunes. Palm are offering options, Apple are taking them away. I know who I'm siding with.
Nokia has provided their own software to sync their phones with iTunes, and Apple is okay with them. Palm relies on a cheap hack. If the tool is "awkward," then it's Palm's fault. Fact is, all iTMS tracks can be transferred easily to the Pre without having to deal with iTunes. So whinning about Apple breaking iTunes syncing with the Pre is a poor excuse.
 
Here's a question:

If iTunes thinks a Palm Pre is an iPod, what would happen if it tried to do something, such as ... attempt to recover it, or install the latest firmware.

Who'd be liable for potential damage to the Pre?

I know who'd get all the complaints.
 
Here's a question:

If iTunes thinks a Palm Pre is an iPod, what would happen if it tried to do something, such as ... attempt to recover it, or install the latest firmware.

Who'd be liable for potential damage to the Pre?

I know who'd get all the complaints.

Probably why Apple refereed to the patch as fixing an issue recognizing iPods and not "stopping the Pre".
 
Probably why Apple refereed to the patch as fixing an issue recognizing iPods and not "stopping the Pre".

Well, I'm sure they did it with a smile on their face either way.

Anyway, there's a sizeable market out there for a PreTunes if anyone's bored. ; )
 
I bet this was Steve's call

I can imagine Steve coming back to work and going down his agenda list and says to the iTunes group "WTF are you guys doing? Have you gone soft since I've been away? Block that SH*T now" next topic.
 
Good God, that sounds awful for a whole host of reasons.

Contacts and other lightweight data, fair enough, but apps... that would be a recipe for disaster. I hope they have plans for a better solution when their SDK surfaces...!
I don't follow. To me being able to restore from an internet back-up is sweet because no matter where I am I always have the ability to restore as long as I have my internet connection.

Strange circumstances. For all I've read the Palm compares well in terms of potential, but fails in terms of discovery (even finding data on the device - no favourites page!).
What specifically are you referring to?

Manufacturers aren't going to trump iPhone by copying the thing they hold in their hand. They need to look at the business plan behind iPhone, iTunes, App Store, and the relationship Apple have fostered with their SDK and developers.
The business plan for the iPhone is Apple's typical MO, take what already exists make it slicker, make it more user friendly, and, most importantly, work their marketing magic on it. Apple's still high on the hip and trendy scale and as long as they are I don't see another company overtaking them. Other camps can compete in the same marketplace, and even produce a better product, but it won't outsell the iPhone w/o being cooler than the Apple/iPhone experience.

They could just develop software to sync with itunes like RIM did.
The conversation tree I had that lead to that comment started off w/someone saying something to the effect that Palm should develop their own stuff and not piggyback off Apple's hardware. To me that read like Palm should create it's own iTunes, iTMS, etc., because doing anything less would be piggybacking on Apple.


Lethal
 
I don't understand, why is it people cannot use isync.app to do this? i don't have any sync capable phones, but it appears to support palm OS in the menubar under devices.... What is it that isync.app does not do that Palm want ?
 
I don't understand, why is it people cannot use isync.app to do this? i don't have any sync capable phones, but it appears to support palm OS in the menubar under devices.... What is it that isync.app does not do that Palm want ?

They wouldn't use iSync - Apple depreciated that in favor of Sync services - all the other sync programs out there work.

I see anti-trust suit coming soon.
Based on what? How is Apple preventing Palm from accessing its Library XML file that many other companies have free access to? What law is there that closed proprietary software has to accept competitors? What dominant market power does the iPhone have that you can base this on. I want legal arguments here by the way. When you make a big claim, you should back it up with facts. Don't throw around words that you can't prove that you understand.
 
Based on what? How is Apple preventing Palm from accessing its Library XML file that many other companies have free access to? What law is there that closed proprietary software has to accept competitors? What dominant market power does the iPhone have that you can base this on. I want legal arguments here by the way. When you make a big claim, you should back it up with facts. Don't throw around words that you can't prove that you understand.

I completely agree with most of your points, but what does the iPhone market have to do with anything? I'm not even sure what market anyone would be claiming Apple has a monopoly in related to this issue. The free digital music player market?? :confused:
 
I never did like the idea of the media player turned media library... too much bloat for a program that should only be about 5 megs in size.

Anyways, it's Apple's software. If they want to continue walling off the rest of the market by building their own little metaphorical sofa-cushion forts (complete with "no girls" sign), so be it. The software will be easier to develop and more predictable, but innovation will suffer and many people who would otherwise become good iTunes store customers will never touch the thing. Such exclusionary tactics are not ideal for business.
 
I completely agree with most of your points, but what does the iPhone market have to do with anything? I'm not even sure what market anyone would be claiming Apple has a monopoly in related to this issue. The free digital music player market?? :confused:

Well the issue is anti-competition. There isn't much that Palm and apple directly compete with that would be advantageous besides the phone market. That's their only business similarity. Palm does have integration with the Amazon music store But Apple doesn't prevent anyone from accessing its own music or the music from Amazon. What other market would be relevant - the iPod's don't count because they are arguably a secondary market that Palm doesn't engage in.

In order to have anti-trust you have to utilize one monopoly to create another unrelated monopoly. The iPhone is certainly not a monopoly but if it was, its related to iTunes directly. The iTunes store may be considered a monopoly (but only through market share - Apple's tunes can be played back on other players - other companies can exploit that (apple documents it). My point is that there is no real argument of Anti-trust because there no evidence that Apple is doing anything more than limiting the usage of the iTunes software - since it's closed source thats understandable. If there were any claims of anti-trust, Apple can easily argue that its songs are not inherently tied to iTunes and can be uses with any other program that can play them back.

The only monopoly argument that can be made is with the marketplace of iTunes and the popularity of iTunes and the iPhone. But there is nothing illegal about a large market in of itself or having a highly desired product. Unless you can argue that Apple has to publish the iTunes SDK to allow this, the case is moot. Apple doesn't have to open it up. iTunes is just a front end to Quicktime that Apple owns and controls. There is nothing inherently anti-competitive about iTunes other than it comes on Macs - something you expect being that OSX is Apple's software.

Of course you can argue that OSX is anti-competitive, but that has never been successful argued either and would be much tougher to use. In other words, you just can't say "apple is popular, that's unfair" or "Apple's music store is successful and that's not fair!" because they don;t really mean anything.
 
Such exclusionary tactics are not ideal for business.
I dunno, Apple has been successful with it - of course their products are also really well done too. Association with iTunes is not a guarantee hit (see the Apple TV)

Did we just flash back to the 90s?

My best recollection of Palm back then is that they had their own (terrible) Sync program - HotSync, integration with iSync, (that may have been later in the 00's). People forget that Apple had and still does offer a sync framework that Palm themselves utilized
 
Well the issue is anti-competition. There isn't much that Palm and apple directly compete with that would be advantageous besides the phone market. That's their only business similarity. Palm does have integration with the Amazon music store But Apple doesn't prevent anyone from accessing its own music or the music from Amazon. What other market would be relevant - the iPod's don't count because they are arguably a secondary market that Palm doesn't engage in.

In order to have anti-trust you have to utilize one monopoly to create another unrelated monopoly. The iPhone is certainly not a monopoly but if it was, its related to iTunes directly. The iTunes store may be considered a monopoly (but only through market share - Apple's tunes can be played back on other players - other companies can exploit that (apple documents it). My point is that there is no real argument of Anti-trust because there no evidence that Apple is doing anything more than limiting the usage of the iTunes software - since it's closed source thats understandable. If there were any claims of anti-trust, Apple can easily argue that its songs are not inherently tied to iTunes and can be uses with any other program that can play them back.

The only monopoly argument that can be made is with the marketplace of iTunes and the popularity of iTunes and the iPhone. But there is nothing illegal about a large market in of itself or having a highly desired product. Unless you can argue that Apple has to publish the iTunes SDK to allow this, the case is moot. Apple doesn't have to open it up. iTunes is just a front end to Quicktime that Apple owns and controls. There is nothing inherently anti-competitive about iTunes other than it comes on Macs - something you expect being that OSX is Apple's software.

Of course you can argue that OSX is anti-competitive, but that has never been successful argued either and would be much tougher to use. In other words, you just can't say "apple is popular, that's unfair" or "Apple's music store is successful and that's not fair!" because they don;t really mean anything.

Yeah. I understood your point. My point was that, in this case, Apple is not leveraging the iPhone in any way. iTunes has nothing to do with the iPhone in this case. Palm wants access to iTunes because it is the most popular music managing software, not because it syncs with the iPhone. The iPhone's market power seems to me to be completely irrelevant.
 
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