The problem with Apple is trying to solve nonexistent problems. I just can't figure out which problem does the touch bar, the low travel keyboard or the bigger trackpad are trying to solve.
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Jason Snell for Macworld: Three MacBook mistakes: Will Apple correct course?
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They're solving the problem of having to go into menus and use awkward hand-spread-on-the-keys shortcuts to perform tasks you do repetitively, on every time you use the programme...
e.g. When I'm on Word - regardless of what for - I'm constantly highlighting, changing text size, bold/italic/underline, pasting etc. It solves a real situation where we're adapting our minds to do 'compute' tasks, that are repetitive and a barrier to the workflow with a simple one touch.
I don't have a TB, but I can see the use. Though it's a bit of a case where it's only as good as the developer makes it. Think it'll get better with time, and perhaps eventually, onto the non-Pro machines too. I do understand the preference to have the fixed function keys such as brightness etc and being able to reach for them without having to coordinate your finger for a smooth surface touch screen - 100% get that, but there's models with no TB available for that too! So I don't see the complaining as being too justified really
That was supposed to be the point of my post actually. There is no "at cost of everything else". Yes, the current MBP is thinner, but its sill uses the same 45W CPUs (fastest in mobile class) and 30-40W GPU (mid-range) as it ever did. There was no performance downgrade. Only portability upgrade. Any performance criticisms you guys have apply in exactly the same way to every single MBP model ever released, since there was ALWAYS a laptop on a market with faster GPU. And again, retaining the 2015 (or even earlier) form format, wouldn't allow Apple to use a faster GPU, because no faster GPU in the power bracket currently exists. So saying that Apple abandoned the pro users with the MBP makes no sense if you considered, say, the 2008 17" model a pro device, since it shares all the performance limitations of the current model.
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I suppose low travel keyboard is to make its thinner...other two I have no idea...probably just for the sake of looking different.
For me there appears to be an awful lot of product differentiation going on (even more so than in the past) both in terms of their own products and their competitors. Marketing over systems integration. It isn't right that the physical interfaces for each of their product lines are incompatible. The explosion of adaptors as a revenue stream, leaving customers high and dry forcing them to spend extra money on already expensive products is insulting.
How can we differentiate our product even if it leads to a compromised end user experience?
I also think they're dropping the ball on software, lots of strange UI decisions. The iPhone X's gesture based interface for basic controls is very un-Apple like.
The touch bar is another case in point.
How can we differentiate our product even if it leads to a compromised end user experience?
I also think they're dropping the ball on software, lots of strange UI decisions. The iPhone X's gesture based interface for basic controls is very un-Apple like.
The touch bar is another case in point.
Touch bar should be obvious? It replaces the obsolete function keys by a context-aware input device that at least have some situational use. Large trackpad is simply convenience (much better for dead and drop for instance). Low travel keyboard, not really an improvement, rather a change. Some people love it, some people hate it, most don't really care.
Performance is only one factor, Pro users rely on being able to interface with their products. Removing the ports, shrinking the battery and relying on performance optimisation narrows the usage profile. Nothing intrinsically wrong with the MBP, Apple have just created ultraportable 13" & 15" devices rather than Pro models.
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Which results in compromised HCI as the user has to look down and take their eye off the screen to select a function. Muscle memory goes out of the windows because of context changing.
Lack of a more powerful GPU is an issue that many users here seem to raise specifically in the context of the 2016/17 MBP. Your point about interfacing certainly has merit, although I fail to see the general problem here. TB3 gives much more flexibility specifically to the pro user and port issue can be easily solved with the use of appropriate cables which are readily available. Its not like any other laptop has that micro-USB-B port to interface with your external hard drive.
I don't see how this argument applies here? First of all, this all up to the application. Nothing prevents the app from placing the touch bar elements in a fixed location, enabling you to memorise them. Second, were toolbar really shines is applications such as color/shape/effect etc. selection. So yes, you have to look down anyway to see what you are selecting. This application is certainly not possible with a static key row and its more efficient than opening an additional menu on your main screen. I use it a lot when making presentations in Keynote. Third, the function keys were completely useless except for multimedia controls. Only niche applications used them, and in doing so they were actually disregarding macOS design guidelines, since commands are supposed to be dispatched with key combinations.
You've repeated these posts several hundred times now over the course of the last year or so, and in that time, you've increasingly confused your personal preferences with what are objective facts. As has been pointed out to you that the 2017 MBP is objectively the most powerful MBP Apple has ever made... the the whole "Apple screwed pro users" is just a ridiculous fallacy you continue to promote. In reality, all the new tech is faster and more powerful than the old tech. That is a FACT.
You can complain all you want about TB3/USB-C ports, the butterfly keyboard*, touchbar, trackpad, magsafe, etc., - you may not like them, but that's a personal preference... your OPINION, and has nothing to do with "pros" versus "non pros" - none of those design decisions screwed over pro users. (and while your opinion was welcomed the first time... after the hundredth time... not so welcome anymore)
(*if keyboard reliability actually turns out to be a significant issue, then that's a defect in the design execution that needs to be fully addressed(!)... but just because most people aren't used to the feel at first is what it is... A few days ago I used a full-travel keyboard for the first time in years, and if felt like the worst keyboard I had ever used... if that was the "new" tech... everyone would be complaining how terrible it was, just like 30 years ago, professional magazine journalists whined about how "pro" writers don't use chiclet keyboards. Heck, 30 years ago, those same writers were arguing the mouse as an input device was just a toy. Sound familiar?)
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Folks, this is just the world we live in now where people just opinion-ate "truth" until everyone sub-comes to it. The crazy thing is, these people will have a much larger impact on Apple's decision making than they have any right to... they're just more dedicated to their "cause". They will keep posting, will promote (and often misconstrue*) any article/video/blogger that appears to align with their thinking, will simply dismiss the overwhelming evidence against them and blindly continue their arguments ad nauseam. They will do everything they can to "convert" the thinking of unwitting users who turn to them as the "experts".
(*this thread being another example - the OP stated the original MacWorld article he linked to argued that USB-C was premature... in actuality the article only argued that the MacBook with only one USB-C port would be better off with two USB-C ports (and better yet, TB3 ports)... the article doesn't suggest anything about USB-C currently being premature or a mistake)
Sorry but this posting is rude, overly personal IMO and is a well written masquerade calling for censorship of others opinions
Your welcome to your views but to suggest others rights should be lesser re "have any right to..." is simply shameful
.I think most of us here believe we have little or no impact on Apples decision making and there is no evidence to support it otherwise
Additionally I see no forum rules that state that the thread discussion is not allowed to evolve in to other opinions, views etc as long as they are within reasonable latitude of the OP
That's a bit disingenuous considering the function keys' main purpose has been to serve as media/brightness/MC keys for the longest time now.
Maybe better if you use it using one finger. Using two fingers, i.e. pressing down on it with my thumb while using another finger to move the cursor, I have a hard time even reaching the edges of the 2015-era trackpad.
But what good is it if it leads to accidental cursor movements at other times? I would find that much more annoying than any possible improvements during drag and drop operations.
Agreed. At best something to be neutral about. But comes with lots of reliability issues and is objectively louder and thus arguably more annoying to use.
Not completely accurate: Yes, the author of the article states that a second port would be helpful, but he also calls the USB-C standard a "confusing mess" and links to this article:
https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c
In this second article USB-C is criticized quite harshly -- and not just for being "premature".
Huh? Did you accidentally quote my post instead of someone else's? I can't figure out how your objections apply to what I actually wrote? Even though I know your posting history, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.Sorry but this posting is rude, overly personal IMO and is a well written masquerade calling for censorship of others opinions
Your welcome to your views but to suggest others rights should be lesser re "have any right to..." is simply shameful
I think most of us here believe we have little or no impact on Apples decision making and there is no evidence to support it otherwise
Additionally I see no forum rules that state that the thread discussion is not allowed to evolve in to other opinions, views etc as long as they are within reasonable latitude of the OP
Which is exactly why function keys are obsolete
They ere almost never used in their intended semantics (to be, w ell, function keys) on the Mac, but rather, the keys were delegated to various laptop control actions. And in regards to these control actions the Touch Bar is simply strictly superior. Its customisable, it allows for sliding controls and on top of that it can also act as application-specific toolbar. As far as I see it, the touch bar criticism usually boil to one of the following (or combination thereof):
1. Its not a game changer and/or not useful for professional workflows
2. It removes the escape key
3. It makes the laptops more expensive
4. It is a stupid gimmick and doesn't belong on a professional device
My reply to this is as follows:
1. It doesn't have to. The touch bar certainly won't change the fundamental way how you interact with your computer. But it does have situational utility, e.g. for selecting colors or controlling sliding parameters. And as to professional workflows, it kind of depends on the application, doesn't it? If an application makes good use of it, why not? I actively use the touch bar in Keynote (to control appearance of elements) and in Terminal (to set bookmarks). I don't have much use for it any else. Does it mean that its pointless or not helpful? Certainly not. Its not a game changer, but a nice thing to have. Certainly more useful than having a touchscreen on a laptop
2. As mentioned before, TextMate is my bread and butter application, which makes the escape my bread and butter key. Do I miss the physical escape key? No I don't.
3. This is something I completely agree with. Touch Bar shouldn't cost extra. The 2016 redesign has significantly increased the price of the 13" model for no valid reason. The 15" is a little bit different here, since we got the dGPU back across all the models, just as in old good times. But yes, Touch Bar shouldn't drive the cost of the computers up.
4. There is not much to comment on. Some people also say that being light or thin makes a computer unusable for professional work. IMO, this says more about the person claiming such things than about anything else.
I've said it many times before, but since I'm sitting right across to it at this moment, and reading about the (seemingly deep divide between old and new generation of Apple users). I just want to express again: how much I loved, and still LOVE the Power Mac G5. It is the epitome of all that was desirable about Apple products - beautiful, logical, powerful. You have no idea how much I was looking forward to the Mac Pro update pre-2013, my enthusiasm in the days leading up to the keynote was sky high, I was literally ready to pre-order on that very day. And you can't imagine my disappointment and disbelief when the trash can was revealed, I was deflated that all the "rumors" about Apple making a trash can didn't turn out to be a joke... in the 4 years since, I waited and waited for a "better version" of the Mac Pro to be released, and over this time I have to admit my love for Apple had cooled down a bit.
And the latest MBPs are a final nail to the coffin. Angela clearly knows a lot about fashion, but she has no business being a top exec in a tech company.
And the latest MBPs are a final nail to the coffin. Angela clearly knows a lot about fashion, but she has no business being a top exec in a tech company.
I was accurate.
You're bringing up a separate and not directly related point (which is why Snell didn't make a point of it himself as something Apple should reverse course on, and stated as such in his article), which is the inherent confusion of USB Type-C as a "universal" connector type. Apple has largely alleviated the confusion of what its products support by moving to TB3 which support pretty much any TB/USB (Mac compatible) product you can buy. Most of the rest of the responsibility is on the cable/device provider to indicate the usage of their products (or in some cases on the USB consortium itself). If products aren't fully compatible with industry specifications, that's not on Apple.
And FTR, Marco isn't complaining about USB-C on MBP's, nor is he complaining about the lack of legacy ports. Legacy ports can have just as much confusion amongst versions (does your HDMI port support 1.4 or 2.0? which is the lowest version to supports 4K @ 60Hz?, etc.). His main point is that the billing of Type-C as a "universal" port isn't as universal as in practice. But in practice, it's also not nearly as confusing as he'd like to make it out to be... he's taken some liberties there to make for a better "story" IMO.
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USB C is currently problematic and will take a good few years to settle if ever. Unless you fully control the computing environment USC C plus dongles can and does result in "hit or miss" situations, that may well be fine at home, however in the professional environment far from being acceptable.
Nor is this confined to Apple, however Apple has chosen to produce USB C only for the latest MBP. For those that use the notebooks as intended it can and does present issue. As not being able to reliably connect to display devices is problematic at best, infuriating at the worst. I'm about to travel to present a technical summary to a major multinational's management team, bottom line is the notebook needs to connect without issue, from my experience Mac's with USB C and dongles are far from the most robust solution.
No doubt some will decry, equally companies are not going to switch over to USB C anytime soon as they have little or no incentive, leaving the likes of the MBP as a device that may or may not work as intended, and for me firmly on the shelf...
FWIW I'm not against USB C/TB-3 now owning my 4th USB C enabled notebook, equally I am looking for a sensible balance of relevant ports with the inclusion of USB C, not a one way street that presents obstacles...
Q-6
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Apple used to be easy. That stopped happening with OS X IMO. And now even the choice of a notebook from Apple is difficult. Its not about which one you buy as much as all the gear you need to buy to make it work. That's not easy IMO. Its a pain in my bottom.
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I guess what others have highlighted in this and other posts - lack of ports and gimmicky touch bar.
I think Apple can opt for a user friendly, software developer friendly, non fragmentation, less headache to decide route of having both the touch bar and the function key. That way nobody will actually complain about the touch bar as much.
But then of course, you will have MB pro line up starting at $1800
But then of course, you will have MB pro line up starting at $1800
Since I have a gaming laptop, there's one small catch that comes with a powerful GPU in a mobile device. That is you have to be plugged into an outlet all the time for max performance, as the battery simply cannot accommodate the more power offerings like the 1060. Once you unplug the laptop, the gpu becomes as slow as the 460.
You're wrong - a respected journalist still has their won opinion that doesn't have to apply to everyone. Just because he's respected doesn't mean people have to agree.
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People don't think that way. Everyone knows best and everyone is an expert. When it comes to computers, it's just annoying. When it comes to people knowing things better than doctors in areas of medicine, vaccination, etc. - it's downright dangerous. Still, that's people for you. Every Apple critic here thinks they know what Apple should do. Try to explain things are never that simple - they mention things like kool-aid.
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It's not the negative views that bug me. In fact, the more time passes, the more I understand some of the issues people are having with these computers. It's how these issues are presented: you basically told that person 'no one cares what they think' just because they have a different opinion. From day one - the one thing that bothered me here is not having a negative opinion about Apple products, it's how this opinion is given, in an insulting way towards the others.
There are certainly people I disagree with on these forums, but who always make their point without calling other users names or being rude. For example @Queen6 is one of these people - I don't have to agree with him, but he does make some valid arguments and never in a way other people feel bad (at least from those posts I read).
There are certainly people I disagree with on these forums, but who always make their point without calling other users names or being rude. For example @Queen6 is one of these people - I don't have to agree with him, but he does make some valid arguments and never in a way other people feel bad (at least from those posts I read).
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leman wrote above:
"Which is exactly why function keys are obsolete They ere almost never used in their intended semantics (to be, w ell, function keys) on the Mac, but rather, the keys were delegated to various laptop control actions. And in regards to these control actions the Touch Bar is simply strictly superior."
No, the touchbar is NOT "superior".
If I want "volume up" or "volume down" on the OLD (2015 design) keyboard, I just touch those buttons -directly-, and the volume goes up, or it goes down.
If I want "volume up" or "volume down" on the NEW (2016-17 design) touchbar, I must first press the icon for "volume", and then try to move the "slider" to where I think it will be appropriate -- often MISSING my "target" the first time around.
The new design is neither more intuitive, nor more functional for me.
Same with screen display brightness, keyboard brightness, etc.
About the only function that works as well on the touchbar as it does on the old keyboard is "escape"...
"Which is exactly why function keys are obsolete
They ere almost never used in their intended semantics (to be, w ell, function keys) on the Mac, but rather, the keys were delegated to various laptop control actions. And in regards to these control actions the Touch Bar is simply strictly superior."No, the touchbar is NOT "superior".
If I want "volume up" or "volume down" on the OLD (2015 design) keyboard, I just touch those buttons -directly-, and the volume goes up, or it goes down.
If I want "volume up" or "volume down" on the NEW (2016-17 design) touchbar, I must first press the icon for "volume", and then try to move the "slider" to where I think it will be appropriate -- often MISSING my "target" the first time around.
The new design is neither more intuitive, nor more functional for me.
Same with screen display brightness, keyboard brightness, etc.
About the only function that works as well on the touchbar as it does on the old keyboard is "escape"...