Jony Ive "hears" your macbook criticism

[jk73]

I don't have time to read all 13 pages. I'm really happy with my first-gen MBP with Touch Bar, but I still can't believe Apple thought it was progress to remove MagSafe and to require MBP users to turn on their machine to see if the battery is fully charged. I hope these two omissions return to future MBP models.

 

[jerry70450]

Thunderbolt

...was already possible with Thunderbolt 1/2 except for the indignity of having to plug in a separate power cable... but then again, USB-C devices that can deliver enough power for the 15" MBP are few and far between.



...but not your iPhone, iPad, iPod Magic Keyboard/mouse because Apple have insisted on sticking with Lightning for those.



Would that be a USB charge cable (5A charging, but no USB 3, thunderbolt or video), a USB-C 3.1 cable like this one (USB 3.1g2, displays, no Thunderbolt, power limited to 3A), a short passive Thunderbolt cable (USB3.1, TB3 and display - but this one is limited to 3A/60W power) or an active Thunderbolt cable (40Gbps TB3, 60W power but, whoops, no USB3.1 - only 2.0, will drive Thunderbolt displays but not USB-C displays) or there's this one that does actually seem to do it all... at a price?

Plus, since current USB-C and TB3 implementations don't support DisplayPort 1.3/1.4, don't expect full-size DisplayPort or HDMI connections to be vanishing anytime soon - oh, and coming down the pike we have new native HDMI alt mode (c.f. current USB-C to HDMI adapters that actually use DisplayPort alt mode) so we're going to have a whole new source of confusion with HDMI adapters and displays.



Rubbish - all Apple's pre-2016 computers had Thunderbolt 2 ports (2 of them on the rMBP and iMac, 4 on the nMP) which were likewise "universal" and could be docked, adapted, daisy-chained etc. to your heart's content. The 2 USB 3 'A' ports could also be connected to (ubiquitous and cheap) hubs and a variety of adapters. The HDMI and SD reader were "bonuses" while the much-loved MagSafe meant that you didn't have to "waste" a high-speed data port for charging.

So, suddenly, we've gone from 4 well-established general-purpose ports plus HDMI, SD and power, to either 2 or 4 new general-purpose ports (that currently need new adapters for existing devices) full stop. Yeah, it's great that they can do "everything" because you're gonna need that to replace the ports that have been taken away.

Now the 2017 iMac is actually a slight improvement: but only because you've still got 4 USB 3s, Ethernet, SD and power plus the new option of using your TB ports as extra USBs (except... there were always TB2-to-USB adapters).



...in the dreams of tech industry analysts desperate to find another "boom" industry rather than face the fact that computers have become "mature" and people no longer have a reason to upgrace every 18 months. Back in the real world, the size of devices for people who actually do stuff is now determined by the size of a usable keyboard and display, an adequate battery and the ability to disspate the heat from a decent CPU/GPU combo (sure - everyone I know has a smartphone and a tablet... as well as a regular laptop or desktop - not instead). USB-C is, indeed, great for the mobile dream - yet mobile is the one place that Apple isn't using it.



Actually, the future for mobile will be hermetically sealed and wireless.



Sure - Apple could have made at least one model MBP with TB3 instead of TB2 but retaining the "legacy" ports (like they did with the iMac). They could have made sure that a "reference" TB3 dock that restored all the legacy ports was in the store from day 1. Intel needn't have borked TB3 (and Intel-implemented USB-C) by limiting it to DisplayPort 1.2a and could have supported passive TB3 over short USB-C 3.1 cables. The USB consortium could have required that all certified devices supported USB3.1g2, 5A charge etc. and avoided a bewildering variety of cables. They could have gone straight to USB 3.2 so that USB-C in "USB mode" actually had a bandwidth advantage over USB-A.

Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda. Reality: they didn'a.

So I've got a couple of points to make here.
1. Your comment regarding the Lighting connector. Remember this was introduced when the iPhone 5 came out. Back then USB C specs have not been finalized yet, so Apple used their own connector. People don't like changes in connectors not to mention USB C is actually bigger than lighting. I feel like apple will switch to USB C but in iPhones several years down the line.

2. USB C PD is speced for 100W, but that could definitely change in the future. USB C is a framework which can be built up on. Thunderbolt 1/2 is not as universal as USB. USB allows for power, data transfer, and with dongles, is backwards compatible.

3. This is why I've made my other post regarding terrible implementation. Hopefully it'll get worked out in the future. Once its worked out, one cable for everything is definitely possible.

4. I'd be fine if apple added more USB C ports. Maybe 6 in the MBP. Again, general purpose ports are better and you can charge from both sides of the laptop. I can see when USB C over HDMI can replace the default HDMI cable completely. Again this is the future here. We're trying to move towards that direction. Thunderbolt 2 is not as TB 3 integrated as USB C. USB C allows for multiple protocols which thunderbolt does not. TB 3/USB C is backwards compatible. Apple should've put in a SD card slot though. No good reason to remove that.

5. They're trying to force everyone to USB C. If there were USB A ports, there's a good chance you wouldn't upgrade to USB C, because when given the option, people will stick with the one they have.

6. Sure, the future will be wireless, but cables will still reign supreme when it comes to internet, charging, or video output. Cable has larger bandwidth, faster and is more reliable. This is still a Macbook Pro afterall.

7. Like I said before, USB C sets a framework for the future. Things will evolve and the protocols be better integrated in the future, which is what apple is trying to get people to do.

 

[loby]

So I've got a couple of points to make here.
1. Your comment regarding the Lighting connector. Remember this was introduced when the iPhone 5 came out. Back then USB C specs have not been finalized yet, so Apple used their own connector. People don't like changes in connectors not to mention USB C is actually bigger than lighting. I feel like apple will switch to USB C but in iPhones several years down the line.

2. USB C PD is speced for 100W, but that could definitely change in the future. USB C is a framework which can be built up on. Thunderbolt 1/2 is not as universal as USB. USB allows for power, data transfer, and with dongles, is backwards compatible.

3. This is why I've made my other post regarding terrible implementation. Hopefully it'll get worked out in the future. Once its worked out, one cable for everything is definitely possible.

4. I'd be fine if apple added more USB C ports. Maybe 6 in the MBP. Again, general purpose ports are better and you can charge from both sides of the laptop. I can see when USB C over HDMI can replace the default HDMI cable completely. Again this is the future here. We're trying to move towards that direction. Thunderbolt 2 is not as TB 3 integrated as USB C. USB C allows for multiple protocols which thunderbolt does not. TB 3/USB C is backwards compatible. Apple should've put in a SD card slot though. No good reason to remove that.

5. They're trying to force everyone to USB C. If there were USB A ports, there's a good chance you wouldn't upgrade to USB C, because when given the option, people will stick with the one they have.

6. Sure, the future will be wireless, but cables will still reign supreme when it comes to internet, charging, or video output. Cable has larger bandwidth, faster and is more reliable. This is still a Macbook Pro afterall.

7. Like I said before, USB C sets a framework for the future. Things will evolve and the protocols be better integrated in the future, which is what apple is trying to get people to do.

I totally agree with you. I believe USB C is the future. I hope that USB-C is the standard for awhile, because companies seem to be a little skeptical to make products with the current offering of whatever the "New" port at the time is.

When thunderbolt 1 came out, very slow to nothing out there as far as companies producing products with the new latest technology port, so we had to use an adapter for the older port firewire equipment for some time. Then waiting for peripherals for Thunderbolt 1, nothing really came out...Then Thunderbolt 2 comes out. Just a little as peripherals produced on the market (even now)...now we have USB-C.

Companies when a new port comes out have to redesign their products again (or make new ones) and the time they are done with their design, production, costs, etc. Apple again eliminates the last "New Port" and replaces it with the "New" and greatest, and now companies have to start all over...again. Not cost efficient to have to keep doing this..

As for the consumer, we either buy dongles or replace equipment that is costly every time we lose ports. Makes the machine go around, but many are jumping off the merry-go-around and keeping their older equipment for this reason.

To expensive to have to buy everything again once a new port come out...

But that is how it is and has always been. Not much of a choice when you have to buy a new computer..

 

[whg]

I don't have time to read all 13 pages. I'm really happy with my first-ten MBP with Touch Bar, but I still can't believe Apple thought it was progress to remove MagSafe and to require MBP users to turn on their machine to see if the battery is fully charged. I hope these two omissions return to future MBP models.

I had the original Macbook 12" 2 years ago. I really liked it because it was so light and easy to use while travelling. I got used to carry an adapter and I even liked the keyboard. The only reason why I sold it was the poor performance, especially when using an external monitor in the office. I also have to run Windows in a Parallels VM and 8 GB RAM was to small.

I have now a maxed out 15" 2017 model. The only reason why I waited so long to get this model was my fear about the gigantic touchpad. Today I can say that this turned out to be unjustified. I like the big touchpad and find the old one on the 2015 model (that I still use for work) too small.

The only reason I hated to lose MagSave: I can no longer use my spare power adapters. I had one of those at every place where I used a Macbook. Re-buying USB-C power adapters with cables is really expensive as there are no good alternatives to Apple for 87W adapters.

I'm still waiting for a good USB-C dock that can provide 87W for the 15" Macbook Pro and that has all the ports that I need. One port is always missing or the power is limited to 60W (OWC dock).

I never missed the battery charge indicator from the 2011 and earlier models. I just take it for granted that the battery is fully charged when I unplug the Macbook and leave the house.

 

[leman]

Now...under Tim Cook it seems mandatory. Why? Not because of the technology, but the components inside (less quality to maximize profits). Maybe I was “lucky” with my selection when buying, but it seems more so now that the products are not lasting longer. Not saying that the products are not still good (or the parts inside), but the new Apple will take risks on questionable “less expensive” parts it seems or vendors who will deliver what they want at a lessor price then others. Once you make that a priority, then you risk faulty parts..so now Applecare is a must instead of an option.

You might be suffering from confirmation bias Every generation of Mac hardware has had its illnesses, some more, some less. Powerbooks with disintegrating chassis, plastic MacBooks with discolouration and broken hinges, GPU failures in 2007/2008 models, GPU failures in 2011 models...

The only real ailment of the current lineup seems to be the keyboard. I don't think its because its lower quality, but rather, because it is still, in many regards, experimental tech. They will eventually work it out, and in the meantime we have warranty coverage.

 

[loby]

You might be suffering from confirmation bias Every generation of Mac hardware has had its illnesses, some more, some less. Powerbooks with disintegrating chassis, plastic MacBooks with discolouration and broken hinges, GPU failures in 2007/2008 models, GPU failures in 2011 models...

The only real ailment of the current lineup seems to be the keyboard. I don't think its because its lower quality, but rather, because it is still, in many regards, experimental tech. They will eventually work it out, and in the meantime we have warranty coverage.

Hmmm....good points. Will consider my view...

I think I may be a little jaded because of the issues with batteries in the iphone (which I was hit a few times with). Battery technology is not new technology. Understandable about higher demands on batteries vs. application and power demands, but Apple could use higher grade batteries.

Apple is not using the best battery option, just the option that fits the budget to hit preset production costs. I understand completely why, but at Apple’s premium pricing, they should use a higher grade battery.

Battery power is one of the most important components in the iphone, so it should be one of the priorities.

 

[whg]

You might be suffering from confirmation bias Every generation of Mac hardware has had its illnesses, some more, some less. Powerbooks with disintegrating chassis, plastic MacBooks with discolouration and broken hinges, GPU failures in 2007/2008 models, GPU failures in 2011 models...

The only real ailment of the current lineup seems to be the keyboard. I don't think its because its lower quality, but rather, because it is still, in many regards, experimental tech. They will eventually work it out, and in the meantime we have warranty coverage.

My first Mac was as MacBook Pro 12" 2010 that I passed to my daughter one year later when I got a 2011 MacBook Pro 15". The 2010 model's hard disk failed after warranty ran out. With a new hard disk it wasn't possibly to install OSX, but my son in law could install Linux on it. My 2011 model suffered from the famous GPU failure in its 4th year, but was fixed for free by Apple. I decided to sell it after repair. My 27" iMac 2011 had a GPU failure one year later that was not covered anymore by Apple. The 2012 rMBP 15" I used to replace the 2011 model developed the famous screen ghosting. The original Macbook 12" I got to replace my Air was severely underpowered and a sold it, too.

The most reliable Macbook I ever had and still use is a 2013 MacBook Air 11". But the best experience up to now I have with my 2017 Macbook Pro 15". I really like it. The least used feature is the TouchBar. I mostly used function keys to change brightness and loudness. This still works, but I see no advantage here. Only the finger print reader is a welcome bonus. But because I got aware of the potential keyboard failure, I was more or less forced to buy Apple Care, which upped the already high price.

I tried, of course, alternatives such as the Surface Pro 4. These convertibles look good on paper, but for me they failed badly in practical use. You can do your job with them, but I couldn't stand it longer than half a year. Oh, and by the way: The first Surface Pro 4 with i7 CPU overheated and had to be replaced by Microsoft.

 

[jk73]

Man, you've had some bad luck. I've never owned a non-Apple computer dating to 1992, and the only lemon I've had was the PowerBook 5300 back in 1996–97, which was a notoriously bad machine and perhaps the low point in Apple's hardware history. I've never used a PB or MBP for less than 2-3 years, and my record was almost 8 years with a PB 17" (2004–12).

 

[asdfjkl;]

Will they really bring back any the following?
- one or two USB 3.0 type A ports
- the "classic" keyboard keys
- real function keys
- magsafe
- upgradable RAM
- user-accessible storage (SATA/M.2/etc)
- user-swappable battery
- non-glossy displays

Because that's what most people are complaining about.

How about Ryzen mobile CPUs? They new Ryzen mobile cpus from AMD are 15W parts with integrated Vega graphics that are 50% faster than Intel's crappy integrated graphics. While single core performance does not quite equal equivalent Intel performance, multi-core performance easily bests equivalent Intel parts. Simply moving to Ryzen could do a lot to putting the 'pro' back in the Macbook 'pro'.

 

[MrAverigeUser]

to avoid double posting, here is the link to a long list of problems in one of my postings about "Caring about customers" concerning lots of apple-issues (not only GPUs) :

Apple Initiates Repair Program for 2011-2013 MacBook Pros With Video Issues

 

[The Mercurian]

Jony needs to hear faster. Those new 13" Dells are awfully tempting

 

[jeyf]

they should do a recall on the 2016 macbook keyboard


a way to go is inexpensive Dell hardware
and
i can use the linux
and
an open source VirtualBox + a hackIntosh for the fam

 

[project_2501]

they should do a recall on the 2016 macbook keyboard


a way to go is inexpensive Dell hardware
and
i can use the linux
and
an open source VirtualBox + a hackIntosh for the fam

I didn't know macOS worked inside virtualbox?

 

[jeyf]

yes if the host is osx. A virtual hackintosh for the family will work even better and the host can be linux

 

[project_2501]

yes if the host is osx. A virtual hackintosh for the family will work even better and the host can be linux

For research purposes- where can I find more info on this?

 

[ET iPhone Home]

Do we have to wait for a redesign for Apple to integrate MagSafe, USB, SD Slot, assuming these features will be reconsidered?

 

[leman]

Do we have to wait for a redesign for Apple to integrate MagSafe, USB, SD Slot, assuming these features will re reconsidered?

Why would they be reconsidered? Everyone else is moving to modern USB standards as well, why would you expect Apple to move backwards in time?

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

Why would they be reconsidered? Everyone else is moving to modern USB standards as well, why would you expect Apple to move backwards in time?

Because they were cool in 1982.

 

[MrAverigeUser]

Why would they be reconsidered? Everyone else is moving to modern USB standards as well, why would you expect Apple to move backwards in time?

For example because nearly everyone uses one of the BILLION external devices with "classic" USB Type A connectors.
Is it "modern" to risk a shattered Notebook because it is no more secured by MagSafe?

I am not against USB Type C Connectors and Thunderbolt 3, but why abandon LAN, USB 3.1, TB 2 and MagSafe?

Why abandon esc-keys?

This is ridiculous engineering.

are non-functional keyboards, glued Batteries not-replicable RAM and SSD also "modern" ?

NO, they are NOT.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

For example because nearly everyone uses one of the BILLION external devices with "classic" USB Type A connectors.
Is it "modern" to risk a shattered Notebook because it is no more secured by MagSafe?

I am not against USB Type C Connectors and Thunderbolt 3, but why abandon LAN, USB 3.1, TB 2 and MagSafe?

Why abandon esc-keys?

This is ridiculous engineering.

are non-functional keyboards, glued Batteries not-replicable RAM and SSD also "modern" ?

NO, they are NOT.

Why are you dangling a cable over a walkway? That's a trip hazard, consult your workplace HR about a health and safety course. MagSafe was pretty crucial when we had a battery life of ~2 hours, but with 10 hours, why is there a need for frankly dangerous charging solutions?

It's literally a connector change, that's all. Nearly every modern device being made now has a USB-C port. If the attitude is to sit and wait for innovation to happen then it will never happen. Why move to USB in the first place, everything was fine with Diskettes and PS/2 ports right?

It's still there, still works, still operates as an escape button. Not been abandoned at all. Although it has been relegated to a touch key before other much more useful keys such as ±.

Are you an engineer? The engineering that's gone into these current MacBooks is pretty incredible. Whether you like the design or not if you had any experience of engineering you must at least tip your proverbial hat to the witchcraft of making something this powerful, this thin.

My keyboard is still functioning just fine, had it get very hot and covered in dust too. Apparently it's the only one in the world that can withstand more than a fairy fart of dust. RAM isn't the necessity it was a long time ago, when you would upgrade it every year or two. Although it's nice to have these things till the end of days, it isn't the world we live in any more. Long gone are the days of buying an expensive premium and it being bullet proof. Long ago they decided to make things much cheaper and offer more to the consumer (With currency adjustments the current one's are much cheaper than they were). This was because people worked out that things don't need to last 30+ years, when on average people replace them after 5 years. That's just stating reality of modern consumer electronics.

Your idea of modern seems stuck in the past, which is paradoxical. If you want all the features you listed then stick with your current computer or buy the 2015, which is about as modern as you'll get whilst still having older more stable technology.

Look, if you're the sort of person that loves new things, and are willing to invest/gamble in that environment, then you'd love the new computers. However, if you prefer tried and tested things then ultimately you'll be the sort to buy it once it has been proven. Either of those is absolutely fine, but wanting Apple to release something that's based on old and growing obsolete technology will mean you won't get something new and fresh in a few years. People hated the rMB's when they first came out for a few of the reasons you listed such as battery's and RAM, yet now the people who hate the current generation consider the rMB line the best they did. Not saying anyone has to love or hate any of this though, it's a computer, use it for work, if it doesn't fill that need then get something else. It's a tool not a love affair.

 

[ET iPhone Home]

Why would they be reconsidered? Everyone else is moving to modern USB standards as well, why would you expect Apple to move backwards in time?

Based on the article posted by OP.

 

[jerry70450]

For example because nearly everyone uses one of the BILLION external devices with "classic" USB Type A connectors.
Is it "modern" to risk a shattered Notebook because it is no more secured by MagSafe?

I am not against USB Type C Connectors and Thunderbolt 3, but why abandon LAN, USB 3.1, TB 2 and MagSafe?

Why abandon esc-keys?

This is ridiculous engineering.

are non-functional keyboards, glued Batteries not-replicable RAM and SSD also "modern" ?

NO, they are NOT.

Because we need to move on to USB C. USB A was invented nearly 20 years ago. Our devices has certainly chanced in those 20 years. We need a new, more powerful, multilaned, better shaped connector for the future. They have USB 3.1 with Thunderbolt 3 (dual protocol) on these ports with direct PCIE connection. You can turn these ports into anything with an adapter, although it would've been nice to have 6 USB C ports.

Why not abandon thunderbolt 2? there's thunderbolt 3.

MagSafe was abandoned for the sake of charging over USB C. It's a fair tradeoff. They went for comparability and standards rather for a proprietary, albeit a better designed power connector. Bonus is you can charge from both sides now.

The keyboard is quite functional, just the reliability is not there. It seems like the complaints are less though with the 2017, so they have done things there to address the issue partially.

 

[BayouTiger]

Diehard Apple fan boy here, but my 2016 TB MBP sits unused. Give me a full set of Hackintosh drivers for my X1 Carbon and I would be all set. The Thinkpad is the almost perfect combination of ports, weight, and quality. If only it had a 16x10 screen, it would be perfect.

 

[c0ppo]

The keyboard is quite functional, just the reliability is not there.

Well, that bolded part is the most important part of any keyboard. At least to me

 

[whg]

Diehard Apple fan boy here, but my 2016 TB MBP sits unused. Give me a full set of Hackintosh drivers for my X1 Carbon and I would be all set. The Thinkpad is the almost perfect combination of ports, weight, and quality. If only it had a 16x10 screen, it would be perfect.

But how can it be perfect when you need a dongle for the RJ45 LAN connector, and it has no full SD card connector, too. Does it have MagSafe? But the worst thing is: no macOS.

But I agree with you, Lenovo probably makes the best Windows notebooks. Before I switched over to Apple products, I was very happy with my ThinkPad notebooks. No comparison to what HP or Dell made at that time.

Today I only touch Windows in a Parallels VM because I need to use Visual Studio for work. To get access to company resources like Active Directory etc. I even was forced to install a (Windows) Virus Scanner. Very often I see a message box: "Windows is installing updates, your performance might be reduced" or similar.