Jony Ive Says Holding Onto Features When There's a 'Better Way' is 'Path That Leads to Failure'

[myscrnnm]

You really want to argue that given the choice between notch and no notch, iPhone X users would take the notch?

Please show me where I stated or implied that sentiment. You said 99% of users hate the notch. I never said I love the notch. Reported for spam.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Until the quality of wireless audio is equal to, or surpasses, that of wired audio, it's not a viable replacement (in my opinion). Wired headphones are still superior. Again, I still don't think it's the "better way" as Jony Ive would suggest. The way I see it, if you're going to remove the headphone jack, at least replace it with a different universal port, such as USB-C. That way I can at least use the same pair of headphones on my iPhone as I do on my MacBook. Apple has just been making bad design choices over the last couple of years, in my humble opinion.

Well, it wasn’t Ive who decided the headphone jack would go. And the universal jack you’re looking for is the 3.5mm TRS for which Apple included the lightning plug adapter.

You definitely don’t want to be forced to use USB-C jacked headphones, there aren’t a lot of quality ones available, plus that would just be something new you’d have to buy.

Since you’re never going to want wireless headphones, you can use the included adapter. There are solutions to break out the audio jack so you can still charge at the same time. But I’m sure you know that.

It’s fine to think Apple screwed up and shouldn’t have removed the headphone jack, but they did remove it. You do realize it’s not coming back, right?

 

[GoldenJoe]

Please show me where I stated or implied that sentiment. You said 99% of users hate the notch. I never said I love the notch. Reported for spam.

Cool dude. Reported for abusing the report system. Let's see how that goes.

 

[AdonisSMU]

That's strange, because the iPhone 8 has exactly the same amount of processing power without costing 25% more.

Yeah but the battery life and disply are better on the X.

 

[albebaubles]

Ive isn’t in charge of the thermals lol. Apple has a thermal engineering team that sets the requirements, which Ive’s team’s design candidates are verified against. Ive can’t overrule engineering, and engineering isn’t going to sign off on a design that can’t meet their specs.

They’ve got environmental chambers where they can test various prototypes at different temperatures and humidities to confirm that their requirements are met at operating (and non-operating) conditions.

And Ive doesn’t command that ports be removed to meet his thinness goals. That’s decided by engineering and marketing, and the industrial design team will then create their best solution to package it. He also doesn’t decide the battery capacity, that’s probably mainly decided by marketing.

Ive is used to engineering trade offs, I’m sure he’d rather have his sheet of glass rather than the notch, but engineering can’t make it happen. So he’s got to accept some top bezel area, but it’ll be curved and shaped the way he wants.

I’m sure he’d also prefer not to have a camera bump, but engineering needs a certain minimum thickness to do what they and the marketing team have agreed upon wrt specs, so again he has to accept the constraints he’s given.

Not sure why people think Ive calls the shots. Engineering, marketing and manufacturing requirements are realities that the design team must live with. They’re part of the design parameters they take into account as they figure out the best solution. (I’m pretty sure you can blame him for the red dot on the LTE watch, though!!)

This sounds logical - and is even more horrifying.

 

[AdonisSMU]

Being innovative doesn't make you successful. Being successful makes you successful.

The Cube, and the Mac Pro were very innovative and clever designs, but both (deservedly) didn't sell well or last long.

Apple need to learn that every time they drop ports or change designs, it impacts on the end-users; in the form of having to buy new cables or chargers or cases or even all new peripherals. Or having to carry around lots of adaptors. Apple need to weight the benefits of the redesign against the inconvenience of the change for users.

If the benefits are huge, wonderful! But don't force users to buy new cases because you've shaved a fraction of a mm off an iPhone; or don't force users to buy new externals because you can make a MacBook very marginally slimmer by dropping some ports.

Apple seem to think change is good, regardless of its benefits or knock-on effects.

The changes Apple made to the MacBook were largely great especially using a standard port that is technologically superior in wvery way to what came before it. They did while shaving off some weight. The only change I wouldve made is the touch bar. Its not that useful tbqh minus the finger print scanner.

 

[dk001]

It’s kind of complicated. You’re not turning off WiFi, your disconnecting from the access point. When the blue icon goes grey, the text at the top says “disconnected from blah blah”.

It will probably take 4 or 5 years for people to understand this, but then they’ll probably stop complaining about it.

It would have made better sense to either allow the user to select what it does or provide both options.
[doublepost=1510894386][/doublepost]

If you want to use wired headphones with your iPhone 7 and beyond. No, they don't think you should. They think you should embrace all that is bluetooth and it's wireless benefits. Yet, think of you, they included a perfectly adequate solution that you can't seem to wrap your mind around. Instead you continue to bang your head against a wall and bore us with your endless rants about how there's no headphone jack when actually there is. Just not like the one you're used to. Plug in the included adapter. Coil it up in your tangled mess of cord and put in your pocket and worry about something far more noble.

Problem is it’s a solution just for the iPhone, nothing else. I listen to music via headphones from 4 devices. 3 have a plug, one doesn’t. My use of the no-plug device for music has dropped even though I bought a great pair of BT.
Ease of use and convenience. I think Apple is heading the right direction but alternative solutions are not fully in place.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Horse hockey. Not a single apple device is 'lower end price tier'. They are far too greedy.

iPhone SE at $349, iPhone X at $999. iPhone SE is the device at the lower end of the price tier. iPhone X is at the higher end.

re: Apple is “far too greedy”; well, Apple makes about 20% net profit after taxes.

What would you suggest instead? How much lower should it be, so as not to be “too greedy”?

 

[dampfnudel]

So we shouldn't expect TouchID to ever return, not even TouchID integrated into the display, based on what Jony said. Well, at least we have it on record...just in case.

 

[albebaubles]

What would you suggest instead? How much lower should it be, so as not to be “too greedy”?

Evidence of the mere 20% you speak of? You talk as though you work inside -- you seem to know the exact boundaries of Ive's influence for instance. how about some proof of all this apple apologist responses you provide? I can send you actual BURNED UP HARDWARE to prove my point or examples of the MP201e3 having to run the fan because the SOLID STATE DRIVE is always over 105˚....
[doublepost=1510896211][/doublepost]

iPhone SE at $349, iPhone X at $999. iPhone SE is the device at the lower end of the price tier. iPhone X is at the higher end.

re: Apple is “far too greedy”; well, Apple makes about 20% net profit after taxes.

What would you suggest instead? How much lower should it be, so as not to be “too greedy”?

Id also like to point out the disposable nature of their products. That is greed too - this company isnt as green as they feint to be.

 

[iLLUMI]

Excited to see what features they remove next year!

Hopefully the notch.... LOL ... Ok I'll shut up already.

 

[Amplelink]

I still can’t wrap my head around how the notch is a wise design choice.

I know I know, you get used to it after a couple days. Doesn’t change the fact it’s ugly as hell. Adding a small bezel along the top that’s half the height of current notch to house the new tech would’ve been better.

Also, I can only imagine the amount of seething remarks people on this site would make if the new Google pixel had a notch on their screen. They’d be in full force mocking it. But since it’s Apple, they can do no wrong.

First, have you seen how many components are in that notch? The small bezel along the top wouldn't be so small. And if you care about symmetry, then that requires a bezel at the bottom. and the whole thing then looks like a Google Pixel 2 XL

 

[simonmet]

Wait. So the home button isn’t or wasn’t effective?

 

[PickUrPoison]

Evidence of the mere 20% you speak of?

Apple financials are public.

For the fiscal year ending 9/30/17:

Net Sales: 229,234
Total Expense: 167,890
Net Operating income: 61,344
Other income: 2,745
Income before taxes: 64,089
Provision for taxes: 15,738
Net profit: 48,351

So for FY2017, net profit was 21.1%

 

[anoobis]

'nearly edge to edge'

Pretty funny. Other manufacturers have been making phones with edge-to-edge displays for years, yet Apple gets respect for almost getting there.
[doublepost=1510900414][/doublepost]

This analogy makes absolutely no sense. The iPhone X is like an NSX (halo product with latest technology and highest price), iPhone 8 and 8 Plus are like the Civic and Accord (established midrange models that will appeal to the average consumer), and the SE is like the Fit (compact no frills experience for someone who only needs their car/phone to do one thing). Therefore both companies are run in a similar fashion.

The product lineup at Apple is varied and has something in every niche, which makes complete sense as it makes more business sense to have a slice of every pie rather than putting all your eggs in one basket. Although personally I believe this has compromised Apple's vision; gone are the days when there was one iPhone and two color choices.

Your analogy makes no sense. A Civic is not a 'midrange model', a Civic and Honda are not at the same level so how would they both be midrange, a Fit and Civic cost about the same, and a Civic costs 1/10 of a NSX.

An X doesn't cost 10x more than an 8 or 8 Plus.

 

[anoobis]

That's your opinion. Many people, myself (and the Apple design team) included, prefer the notch look over the full length bezel. (side note: they could not have made it half the height based on the size of the IR/camera components.) It still has symmetry at the corners, and I happen to think the OLED screen perfectly following the curves of the physical device at all four corners looks damn sweet-- way better than the mismatched screen/bezel/body curves on most android phones. Also it would have looked incredibly generic and boring had they gone with a full-length bezel. The notch is functional, iconic, and simply the logical choice given their limitations + goal, which was always to have as much of the front of the device covered by screen as possible.

You like your square corner content being cutoff by the curves?

Notch iconic? It's been out for 2 weeks

 

[dilbert99]

Apple has their reasons, though you may disagree. My take:

SSD: lower end of the price tier doesn’t always get the more expensive tech that’s in higher priced models. That’s how it can be priced lower. The alternative is to add the more expensive component and raise the price.

USB-C: The lightning ecosystem is huge, at least 700 million devices use it. How would having a USB-C jack on the iPhone help? What would it plug into? A USB-A jack on a charger cube? Makes no sense to put USB-C on the phone.

Wireless: Before the watch and (soon) AirPods, using a charging mat just to charge your iPhone had limited utility. But with the watch and AirPods having wireless charging, being able to put all 3 devices down on a mat to wirelessly charge before you go to bed is now a lot more interesting. Now it seems to Apple like it would add enough convenience to offset the cost of putting wireless charging capability into a couple hundred million iPhones per year, even if a lot of people don’t end up using it.

Thing is Apple is supposed to be a top tier company but milks customers rather than giving them the best.

 

[Substance90]

I wonder if he sees the irony in that.

 

[trifid]

So holding onto lightning connector when there is a better way (USB-C) is a path to failure, right?

 

[cocoua]

Removing disk or cd is hundred miles ofromf removing jack.
In a time when those elements are UNIVERSAL replaced by others STANDARD (a forbidden word in Apple...) or in disuse they are just step fordward a bit earlier which is Ok, but when you take something almost without ANY better alternative you are messing things up.
Are you somewhere without your lighting to jack adapter? Congrats, pray for the device you are trying to connect with (tv, pro audio system, hi-fi, ETC) has a low quality bluetooth connection. Or try to borrow the headphones from your mate. REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE SUCKS, and this is the final test.
Nobody cares of removing cd after 2 years when they did, flash drives and internet was the best thing for users.
Lighting and bluetooth IS NOT, but they dont make mistakes, just grab your phone in the correct way

And forget to play games with BT as it has a technical lag IMPOSSIBLE by definition to overrride (they can control it in videos but thats all)
Apple is the dongle queen, hope tb4 and 5 keeps same usb-c form factor

 

[Radon87000]

Sure, what goes up must come down. Totally get it. If Apple collapses it will take Samsung with them.

Samsung doesn't need Apple.

 

[Marx55]

Jony, functionality should be first.

 

[Reason077]

Things like removing optical drives, and migrating from Touch ID -> Face ID, are technology driven decisions that I totally agree with.

But removing the headphone jack was a marketing driven decision (to sell AirPods!), not one that benefits customers. It's a pain in the ass to have to either use wireless headphones (need recharging, expensive, easy to lose) or to carry around dongles or multiple pairs of headphones.

If Apple were to use USB-C on phones (or put a lightning jack on MacBooks!) then I would reconsider this - as at least I could then carry one pair of headphones to use with both devices!

 

[Bacillus]

Joni: moving earth and hell to enlarge screens and then obstruct it with the Notch. Now that's progress.
But don't spill time with us - go whisper along with ApplePark trees

 

[Iconoclysm]

Not sure how all that is exactly relevant to my question, I was just confused by the reply of:

"hell, Apple was one of the first companies to move to widgets...it's something I'd have expected them to do."

I'm saying that I don't agree nor disagree, it could be done either way. But considering Apple has used widgets going way, way back you'd expect they'd have leveraged them. Regardless, they absolutely had to have tried them and did not like them.
[doublepost=1510920803][/doublepost]

According to gsmarena IPhone x has a 82,9% screen-to-body ratio. Both the Samsung s8 and S8+ has a better screen-to-body ratio of 83,6% and 84%. Minor differences, but the IPhone X is neither the first or the most bezzelless phone out on the market.

https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s8+-8523.php
https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s8-8161.php
https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_x-8858.php

Yeah, take a look at why... much of that is not in the visible area, this is a very poor way to measure bezels.
[doublepost=1510920964][/doublepost]

Wary or leery. Weary means tired.

Thanks for that, seriously.
[doublepost=1510921004][/doublepost]

That’s a lot of reasons for it to fail, tbh...

There are MANY reasons it could fail, all practical and expected. I don't have to enter my pin in these situations, just move the phone.
[doublepost=1510921104][/doublepost]

Yes and no.
I have a good bit of Apple stuff.
I bought a rMB. Won't buy another or another designed like it. The "single port" feature has proven to be a fail.
I looked at the new MBP - not going that route either.
Dongleville is not a route I am happy with and it is not leading me to where I need to be.

So yes, they lost me as a customer in that arena.

I have the rMB too, I don't like the current MBP. I do envy the touchbar though, but I also don't expect Apple to be right every single time. I do like having only USB C but I would prefer one of the models that have more than one USB C port. I don't mind dongles, but I also like to upgrade all of my accessories as often as possible - which means I'll move everything I own to USB C.
[doublepost=1510921185][/doublepost]

Except that is literally not what he said. Look again at the quote. He said it costs more because of processing power. Reading, yo.

Perhaps you missed where the rest of the iPhone line had the price raised as well? That's due to processing power. The post asked why it cost 25% more for the X, I gave 25% more in parts alone. Comprehension, yo.
[doublepost=1510921469][/doublepost]

So why HDDs instead of SSD. What about usb-c on the phone. Why so long to get wireless charging, waterproof, list goes on....

HDD's for reduced costs, if they're Fusion drives it doesn't matter. I don't pay attention to iMacs but you can't possibly believe these are all mistakes or money grabs.

Why so long for wireless charging? Because Apple had other plans, most likely. Why can't you understand that the complexity of these things is huge? Waterproofing because Apple doesn't claim something is waterproof until it damn well is. Take a look at Sony's Xperia mistake - they're being sued over it. Imagine if Apple made an iPhone and called it waterproof but it wasn't? Can you imagine the uproar? I want USB C on the phone, but that's an obvious hurdle - customers will be PISSED. Yes, the list goes on but the answer isn't that Apple is incapable of doing any of these things.
[doublepost=1510921547][/doublepost]

All I know for sure, they sold one less iPhone 7 or its progeny than they would have if they'd retained the sound jack. I'm guessing they lost a few others like me, but like a lot of other former iPhone buyers, we didn't seem to matter. Have you EVER heard of anyone who bought an iPhone 7 BECAUSE it didn't have that old pesky headphone jack? How many people bought the new MBP's BECAUSE they were sick of magsafe, SD card readers, and USB ports? I'm sure some of you are out there, but the question is rhetorical. There are definitely a LOT of former iPhone/MBP users who have moved on, or are on the threshold of doing so.

You know, I'd rather lose a customer because of a technology road map than because my phone explodes.
[doublepost=1510921636][/doublepost]

In a way I agree with you. It’s the job of the entrepreneur to anticipate the needs of the market, many times gambling on the outcome. Time will tell if Apple is betting correctly.

That's a good point, and Apple doesn't play it safe the way the companies they have left behind do. They have to take chances or they're just going to be the next IBM. It's part of their culture. They're bound to make mistakes, but to read these boards you'd think everything they do is a mistake.