Jony Ive Says Holding Onto Features When There's a 'Better Way' is 'Path That Leads to Failure'

[dk001]

Removing legacy components is not necessarily a bad move, per se, as long as there is a better replacement.

When the original iMac was released without a writable drive, it effectively turned the machine into a "read-only" computer. It wouldn't be until three years later that the iMac came equipped with a CD-RW. In the meantime, anyone who wanted to be able to swap data back and forth with their iMac had to buy and external disk drive. The "i" in iMac stands for Internet, but the internet in 1998 was still mostly dial-up at home, and not a suitable means of large data transfer.

At least, by the time the optical drive was removed from the MacBook Pro in 2012, most software was being distributed via the internet, whether it be a direct download or the Mac App Store. Plus, Apple had had a couple of years to get things prepared with the introduction of the MacBook Air in 2008.

My biggest gripe with the removal of the standard headphone jack in the iPhone 7 was that it made it difficult to be able to charge up the phone and listen to music at the same time. With the introduction of AirPods, and now the inductive charging in the iPhone 8 and X, it helps to assuage some of these concerns so the sole port isn't being overloaded.

You highlight a great point: retire one function when you have another function to replace it. To improve it. Not retire now and release the successor years later.

I own a 7+. I bought a great pair of BT headphones for it. End result: I now listen to music from my phone far less than I used to. A change that was designed to improve function and resulted in reduced use of that device.

 

[kazmac]

Ive no doubt the hubris will come back to bite them in the core again. Do keep rationalizing why we should pay more for less Mr. Ive.

The delightful iPhone freeze due to no home button and wonky iOS (now 11.1) just manifested on my 7 month old 7+. Darn thing was asleep too.

Not paying even more for bs like that.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Except that is literally not what he said. Look again at the quote. He said it costs more because of processing power. Reading, yo.

I think maybe he’s talking about the dual core neural processor used for FaceID. It’s been incorporated into the A11 SOC so it’s present on the 8/8 Plus, but it’s the X buyers who are being upcharged for it. (It’s been in development for 3 years.)

The 8/8 Plus was released at $699/799, just like last year’s 7/7 Plus. So those who buy the 8 series aren’t paying more for the extra processing power required for FaceID.

 

[Jefe's MacAir]

I 100% agree with Ives' statement here. However, it's my opionion that Touch ID is more user friendly and overall superior to Face ID, and that a headphone jack is superior to a dongle that's annoying to carry with you. So the way I see it, Ive hasn't been following his own advice. Apple's been eliminating useful features without replacing them with better things.

If you're already carrying headphones w/ a cord, why can't you just connect the dongle/adapter and leave it connected as part of the headphone's existing cord? Is the extra 3" and 1 gram such an added burden that keeping the headphone jack is the only solution?

 

[PickUrPoison]

NOT On equals NOT Off is not a failure. it‘s "the better way"

It’s kind of complicated. You’re not turning off WiFi, your disconnecting from the access point. When the blue icon goes grey, the text at the top says “disconnected from blah blah”.

It will probably take 4 or 5 years for people to understand this, but then they’ll probably stop complaining about it.

 

[aaronhead14]

If you're already carrying headphones w/ a cord, why can't you just connect the dongle/adapter and leave it connected as part of the headphone's existing cord? Is the extra 3" and 1 gram such an added burden that keeping the headphone jack is the only solution?

Because that's not the "better way." Again, I'll reaffirm that I don't believe Apple are taking their own advice in this regard. Adding inconvenience is *never* the better way.

 

[PickUrPoison]

So why HDDs instead of SSD. What about usb-c on the phone. Why so long to get wireless charging, waterproof, list goes on....

Apple has their reasons, though you may disagree. My take:

SSD: lower end of the price tier doesn’t always get the more expensive tech that’s in higher priced models. That’s how it can be priced lower. The alternative is to add the more expensive component and raise the price.

USB-C: The lightning ecosystem is huge, at least 700 million devices use it. How would having a USB-C jack on the iPhone help? What would it plug into? A USB-A jack on a charger cube? Makes no sense to put USB-C on the phone.

Wireless: Before the watch and (soon) AirPods, using a charging mat just to charge your iPhone had limited utility. But with the watch and AirPods having wireless charging, being able to put all 3 devices down on a mat to wirelessly charge before you go to bed is now a lot more interesting. Now it seems to Apple like it would add enough convenience to offset the cost of putting wireless charging capability into a couple hundred million iPhones per year, even if a lot of people don’t end up using it.

 

[Jefe's MacAir]

Because that's not the "better way." Again, I'll reaffirm that I don't believe Apple are taking their own advice in this regard. Adding inconvenience is *never* the better way.

So you just want to be difficult and complain? They inserted a intermediate solution for your resistance to use wireless headphones while the rest of the World embraces technology. And your response is to try your very hardest to justify your need for a headphone jack while they include a solution. That many claim as "inconvenient" yet I just proposed and overly simple solution to your "problem". I'm just not seeing all the rage about removing a headphone jack to add more tech.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Because that's not the "better way." Again, I'll reaffirm that I don't believe Apple are taking their own advice in this regard. Adding inconvenience is *never* the better way.

Apple knows the better way, and it’s for you to buy some AirPods.

Charge them at night on your $149 Apple charging mat, alongside your Apple Watch and iPhone 8/8 Plus/X. Being in the Apple ecosystem isn’t always cheap

I’m being light-hearted, but I’m serious and I don’t really disagree with Apple here. That is literally their vision of a better way. Apple is the first to admit their better way is not necessarily cheap. Right from the article:

"Our goal is always to provide what we think is the best product possible, not always the lowest cost," added Riccio.​

 

[neutralguy]

If you're already carrying headphones w/ a cord, why can't you just connect the dongle/adapter and leave it connected as part of the headphone's existing cord? Is the extra 3" and 1 gram such an added burden that keeping the headphone jack is the only solution?

But why should we? Is it because Apple thinks we should?
[doublepost=1510878745][/doublepost]

It’s kind of complicated. You’re not turning off WiFi, your disconnecting from the access point. When the blue icon goes grey, the text at the top says “disconnected from blah blah”.

It will probably take 4 or 5 years for people to understand this, but then they’ll probably stop complaining about it.

Maybe because people get tired of it and stop complaining?

 

[Jefe's MacAir]

But why should we? Is it because Apple thinks we should?

If you want to use wired headphones with your iPhone 7 and beyond. No, they don't think you should. They think you should embrace all that is bluetooth and it's wireless benefits. Yet, think of you, they included a perfectly adequate solution that you can't seem to wrap your mind around. Instead you continue to bang your head against a wall and bore us with your endless rants about how there's no headphone jack when actually there is. Just not like the one you're used to. Plug in the included adapter. Coil it up in your tangled mess of cord and put in your pocket and worry about something far more noble.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Does than mean Ive is criticizing Apple for holding onto the poor Mac Pro no update design for so long?

Ive is a designer, I doubt he has a relevant take on the Mac Pro.

But Apple has not only acknowledged it’s been too long, but that the thermals sucked, and that the Mac Pro needs a modular design so it can be updated more frequently.

If you actually care about the Mac Pro, you will enjoy reading this interview with Phil Schiller, Craig Federighi and hardware engineering vp John Ternus:

https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/06/mac-pro-interview-full-transcript/

 

[Westside guy]

You know that notch that we're all supposed to embrace? Well don't hug it too hard, because I'll bet that's going away.

Phil Shiller, on stage at WWDC 2020: "Some people still have phones with a notch... and that's just sad".

 

[Mildredop]

Apple PR machine out in full force today. Wonder if the waning sales of the iPhone X are a cause.

Are they waning?

 

[M2M]

The question is if the notch, or removal of the headphone jack is a better way

 

[Internet Enzyme]

Apple is all about dongles.

I like that profile pic

 

[PickUrPoison]

What’s wrong with janitors.

Janitors are awesome, but maybe aren’t quite as proficient in aerospace engineering as might be helpful when designing a spaceship.

 

[FightTheFuture]

Dear Johnny,
I hate face ID. It fails at least 30% of the time even after many re-trains. The truth is this:

You needed an edge-to-edge display because the Android guys were killing in there and you couldn't figure out how to get touch ID under the display so you gave us this other garbage instead.

Dont get me wrong, I love the iPhone X. I have no problem what-so-ever with the notch, but face ID is pure (provenly insecure) crap.

Posts like these are terrible. You paid $1000 and the flagship feature doesn’t work for you. Yet you “love” the phone. Return it, get something that works for you and stop whining.

 

[albebaubles]

This guy is a tool. Once again I say: learn something about thermal dynamics! I'm sick of this turd.
[doublepost=1510883025][/doublepost]

I still can’t wrap my head around how the notch is a wise design choice.

I know I know, you get used to it after a couple days. Doesn’t change the fact it’s ugly as hell. Adding a small bezel along the top that’s half the height of current notch to house the new tech would’ve been better.

Also, I can only imagine the amount of seething remarks people on this site would make if the new Google pixel had a notch on their screen. They’d be in full force mocking it. But since it’s Apple, they can do no wrong.

c'mon -- that wasn't a design choice. Jonny Hives spin doctoring.

 

[aaronhead14]

So you just want to be difficult and complain? They inserted a intermediate solution for your resistance to use wireless headphones while the rest of the World embraces technology. And your response is to try your very hardest to justify your need for a headphone jack while they include a solution. That many claim as "inconvenient" yet I just proposed and overly simple solution to your "problem". I'm just not seeing all the rage about removing a headphone jack to add more tech.

Apple knows the better way, and it’s for you to buy some AirPods.

Charge them at night on your $149 Apple charging mat, alongside your Apple Watch and iPhone 8/8 Plus/X. Being in the Apple ecosystem isn’t always cheap

I’m being light-hearted, but I’m serious and I don’t really disagree with Apple here. That is literally their vision of a better way. Apple is the first to admit their better way is not necessarily cheap. Right from the article:

"Our goal is always to provide what we think is the best product possible, not always the lowest cost," added Riccio.​

Until the quality of wireless audio is equal to, or surpasses, that of wired audio, it's not a viable replacement (in my opinion). Wired headphones are still superior. Again, I still don't think it's the "better way" as Jony Ive would suggest. The way I see it, if you're going to remove the headphone jack, at least replace it with a different universal port, such as USB-C. That way I can at least use the same pair of headphones on my iPhone as I do on my MacBook. Apple has just been making bad design choices over the last couple of years, in my humble opinion.

 

[FrenchRoasted]

These types of statements always amuse me. Since when can any electronics company force somebody to do something? Do you not have options as a consumer with different Products? Furthermore, please elaborate where Apple is failing as a company based on one anecdotal opinion on a tech forum.

I don’t have choice if I want to stay with iOS. I can always jump OS ships or go with a flip phone, but you knew what I was talking about. You’ll also notice I used the phrase “leads to failure “. Large companies don’t turn on a dime, but they will eventually fail if they don’t please the market.
[doublepost=1510883551][/doublepost]

This is totally wrong. Customers want an end goal but they don't really know the best way to get to it. They always think they do, but you have to show them otherwise. And when you do, you succeed far further.

In a way I agree with you. It’s the job of the entrepreneur to anticipate the needs of the market, many times gambling on the outcome. Time will tell if Apple is betting correctly.

 

[albebaubles]

Yep. How about Bluetooth and the accessory makers adapt to make their pairing work better? I'm sorry, but I gave up on BT after the 10 years of dealing with that nonsense. No headphone jack is just worse, period. The new iPhone isn't even noticeably thinner than my 6, so IDK what they even gained by doing that, other than AirPods sales.

They have also detuned the BT chips to such a degree interference is a major issue...closed system is great if you apple knows what you need. they dont.
[doublepost=1510883666][/doublepost]

FaceID across the board, probably not just next year but years to come. That's why it baffles me why add TouchID on a MacBook when you know you already have this tech in-house? Why not just wait till it's featured THEN introduce it to all your product line that can be accessed securely via FaceID (iPhone, iPad, MacBook)?

$$$ - nothing else
[doublepost=1510883755][/doublepost]

Apple has their reasons, though you may disagree. My take:

SSD: lower end of the price tier doesn’t always get the more expensive tech that’s in higher priced models. That’s how it can be priced lower. The alternative is to add the more expensive component and raise the price.

Horse hockey. Not a single apple device is 'lower end price tier'. They are far too greedy.
[doublepost=1510883820][/doublepost]

"Our goal is always to provide what we think is the best product possible, not always the lowest cost," added Riccio.​

2013 Mac Pro FTW
[doublepost=1510884155][/doublepost]

I keep seeing people responding saying that Apple is just trying to get more money out of their customers.

Are there really that many people out there that don't understand the fundamentals of capitalism?

Not to mention, if it bothers you that much, quit buying Apples products.

explain the nonsense about them being green when every product they make is throw away. apologist.
[doublepost=1510884625][/doublepost]

They always do this “we only want to make the best possible product, and we don’t care about price” BS... but then you look at their Mac lineup and see a 4 year old Mac Pro, 3 year old mini, 2.5 year old MacBook airs, and iMacs with spinning hard drives. (I also hate the MacBooks and MacBook Pros with all the ports removed, but at least that one is a matter of opinion.)

Actually put out a terrific Mac lineup, and then we can talk about how it’s all about the best possible user experience.

inductive charging 6 years after android, with ZERO innovation.
[doublepost=1510884908][/doublepost]

Asking Ive about any Apple product is only going to get you gushing babblespeak. It's absolutely pointless interviewing him. He's a good designer, but so deeply entrenched, that nothing he says about Apple products carries any weight. Might as well just watch one of their TV ads.

yep nothing but a superlative machine.

 

[GoldenJoe]

Where did you get that metric? Pretty sure the majority of people who actually own an iPhone X don't mind the notch at all.

You really want to argue that given the choice between notch and no notch, iPhone X users would take the notch?
[doublepost=1510885761][/doublepost]

"I don't like the notch so 99% of iPhone X owners agree with me on this."

Oh the sheer stupidity of such assumption. I own the iPhone X and I don't notice the notch at all.

But do you like the notch? Are you going to argue that people want to see more notches in phones?

 

[PickUrPoison]

This guy is a tool. Once again I say: learn something about thermal dynamics! I'm sick of this turd.

Ive isn’t in charge of the thermals lol. Apple has a thermal engineering team that sets the requirements, which Ive’s team’s design candidates are verified against. Ive can’t overrule engineering, and engineering isn’t going to sign off on a design that can’t meet their specs.

They’ve got environmental chambers where they can test various prototypes at different temperatures and humidities to confirm that their requirements are met at operating (and non-operating) conditions.

And Ive doesn’t command that ports be removed to meet his thinness goals. That’s decided by engineering and marketing, and the industrial design team will then create their best solution to package it. He also doesn’t decide the battery capacity, that’s probably mainly decided by marketing.

Ive is used to engineering trade offs, I’m sure he’d rather have his sheet of glass rather than the notch, but engineering can’t make it happen. So he’s got to accept some top bezel area, but it’ll be curved and shaped the way he wants.

I’m sure he’d also prefer not to have a camera bump, but engineering needs a certain minimum thickness to do what they and the marketing team have agreed upon wrt specs, so again he has to accept the constraints he’s given.

Not sure why people think Ive calls the shots. Engineering, marketing and manufacturing requirements are realities that the design team must live with. They’re part of the design parameters they take into account as they figure out the best solution. (I’m pretty sure you can blame him for the red dot on the LTE watch, though!!)

 

[Tozovac]

Ive rhetoric. iOS7 onward was form before function - intuitive interface was sold to sales and marketing. Does this mean he agrees he was on a path to failure? Is he acknowledging that he needs a Jobs boot up his behind to find the 'better way'?

Amen. iOS7 = "RIP It Just Works, 2013." How often have you heard "it just works" in regards to an iPhone over the past few years. Better, how often have any of you/us thought that to ourself in the past few years?

I've asked often in discussions where I critique Ive's poisoning the iOS & OS since 2013: Name one function or UI interface feature that was broken in iOS6, and how does the iOS7-11-esque interface that we have today fix it, specifically. I have yet to be shown one solid example.

They’ve got environmental chambers where they can test various prototypes at different temperatures and humidities to confirm that their requirements are met at operating (and non-operating) conditions.

I wish they had test chamber with a slippery ledge about 5 feet above a concrete floor. Must be too expensive.