Just purchased an Envy to compare

[smiddlehurst]

The 13" Envy has an average review of 4.8 stars compared to the 15" average review of 4 stars. Not only that, the 15" Envy is $200 cheaper base configuration than the 13" Envy.

I seriously doubt the next 15" MBP will have ATI 5830 graphics, nor include 1GB dedicated video RAM, nor have an option to 16GB RAM (because probably no 45W CPU), no Quad Core CPU, no dual drive configuration from Apple, no 3 USB ports, nor an eSATA port, nor an HDMI port, nor 1920x1080 HD display option, and DEFINITELY NO BLU-RAY!

It's an awful lot of compromise to be "stuck" with a MacBook Pro, isn't it? This is everyone's dream MBP, and it's too bad Apple will not give it to Apple Mac lovers. MBP buyers would gladly pay for every one of those options to get a MBP with the power and performance of the Envy. It's too bad that Apple doesn't really have a lot of BTO options to allow MBP buyers to configure the MBP they really want even if the costs are ridiculously high.

This is another one of those replies I KNOW I'm going to get flamed to death for by spec nerds but... no, that's not everyone's dream MBP, at least it's certainly not mine. Uber fast graphics and 1Gb of memory, quad core CPU and dual drive configurations eat battery life and generate vast amounts of heat. I would prefer to have a slightly more sane spec, a laptop that doesn't roast your dinner for you and a battery life that at least has a shot of lasting for a few hours away from the mains. I'm not even sure that the MBP's thermal envelope would be able to cope with the heat even if you could buy all that on BTO.

USB 3.0 would be nice for future proofing but that really is very very new. Esata is kinda pointless if you've got USB 3 and while I've seen hundreds of laptops with HDMI ports I don't think I've ever actually seen one being used to feed a TV. Higher res screens might be a nice build to order for some people but I'd never want a 1920 screen on a 15" laptop, it'd give me a headache within minutes.

See here's the thing: laptop design is always about compromise. The Envy 15 review on Gizmodo came in at less than two hours battery life and the Engadget review reported serious heat issues. A MBP packs in more than enough power for the VAST majority of users while not loosing sight of the need to be more than a geek's wet dream. When I bought my 17" MBP back in the summer of 07 I knew I was paying more than I would do for the same-spec machine from a PC manufacturer. But there was no other machine on the market that offered the same blend of performance and portability. It's the same story today, the MBP may be beaten on performance by stuff like the Envy but it remains the best all-round compromise if you don't mind spending the money for it.

 

[kny3twalker]

This is another one of those replies I KNOW I'm going to get flamed to death for by spec nerds but... no, that's not everyone's dream MBP, at least it's certainly not mine. Uber fast graphics and 1Gb of memory, quad core CPU and dual drive configurations eat battery life and generate vast amounts of heat. I would prefer to have a slightly more sane spec, a laptop that doesn't roast your dinner for you and a battery life that at least has a shot of lasting for a few hours away from the mains. I'm not even sure that the MBP's thermal envelope would be able to cope with the heat even if you could buy all that on BTO.

USB 3.0 would be nice for future proofing but that really is very very new. Esata is kinda pointless if you've got USB 3 and while I've seen hundreds of laptops with HDMI ports I don't think I've ever actually seen one being used to feed a TV. Higher res screens might be a nice build to order for some people but I'd never want a 1920 screen on a 15" laptop, it'd give me a headache within minutes.

See here's the thing: laptop design is always about compromise. The Envy 15 review on Gizmodo came in at less than two hours battery life and the Engadget review reported serious heat issues. A MBP packs in more than enough power for the VAST majority of users while not loosing sight of the need to be more than a geek's wet dream. When I bought my 17" MBP back in the summer of 07 I knew I was paying more than I would do for the same-spec machine from a PC manufacturer. But there was no other machine on the market that offered the same blend of performance and portability. It's the same story today, the MBP may be beaten on performance by stuff like the Envy but it remains the best all-round compromise if you don't mind spending the money for it.

the price difference is not as much as you are making it out to be. Go check out a nice Dell Latitude or Precision or a HP Elitebook or Lenovo Thinkpad. I hate to say it, but the Envy is a poor engineered machine by comparison to the MacBook Pro. It feels filmsy and the magnesium panels are thin, the etching in the surface is rough and I would personally hate to have to rest at wrist against this. The trackpad is not nearly as functional, and my only experience with a 15" Envy was the one that had crashed Windows 7 at Fry's Electronics and when I tried to reboot it, it complain about a hardware issue and would not load windows at all. I was a little surprised no one noticed. The 13" Envy did not have these problems, but I still think I made the right decision about buying a MacBook Pro when I compared it to the working Envy. The 13" Envy seems more comparable to a MacBook Air with its low wattage processor and no optical drive though.

 

[dusk007]

I thought about getting one of these refreshed Envy 15s (with i5) after they were release early this year, but instead decided to wait.
I thought the Envy is a high end Top of the Line Notebook for which I get better Batterylife in Windows, better Linux drivers, and the specs will not come like this to a MBP. It took a lot of time to find out but eventually owners figured out that HP built into the Core i5 Notebooks a P55 Chipset (the same as for Quad Core i7). That is ridiculous as they have a H55 even in cheaper Notebooks.
For those who don't know P55 makes using the integrated GPU impossible (at least with ATI). You have to run on an HD5830 all the time which is clearly a bad idea if battery life is any concern.
There is a little DIE on there with a GPU completely without purpose and that is supposed to be a highend Notebook. The only reason to get a Core i5 Envy is because it runs cooler and more quiet but either get an core i7 battery eater power house or forget about the Envy.

 

[smiddlehurst]

the price difference is not as much as you are making it out to be. Go check out a nice Dell Latitude or Precision or a HP Elitebook or Lenovo Thinkpad. I hate to say it, but the Envy is a poor engineered machine by comparison to the MacBook Pro. It feels filmsy and the magnesium panels are thin, the etching in the surface is rough and I would personally hate to have to rest at wrist against this. The trackpad is not nearly as functional, and my only experience with a 15" Envy was the one that had crashed Windows 7 at Fry's Electronics and when I tried to reboot it, it complain about a hardware issue and would not load windows at all. I was a little surprised no one noticed. The 13" Envy did not have these problems, but I still think I made the right decision about buying a MacBook Pro when I compared it to the working Envy. The 13" Envy seems more comparable to a MacBook Air with its low wattage processor and no optical drive though.

Uh, you did see I was talking about a machine purchased in 2007 right? At the time the 17" MBP cost me almost £2,000 where I could have got an equivalent PC for at least £1,500 or less. The extra money was worth it to me as it was more-or-less the only laptop out there at the time that packed a 17" screen in a relatively lightweight package with battery life over four hours.

 

[kny3twalker]

Uh, you did see I was talking about a machine purchased in 2007 right? At the time the 17" MBP cost me almost £2,000 where I could have got an equivalent PC for at least £1,500 or less. The extra money was worth it to me as it was more-or-less the only laptop out there at the time that packed a 17" screen in a relatively lightweight package with battery life over four hours.

I think my point was that the Envy is not a quality windows laptop, and I was suggesting some quality windows laptops which are priced more closely to the macbook pros. I do not know the exact conversion to dollars, but I know its always been possible to configure a windows laptop to be as expensive as an apple laptop.

 

[aberrero]

My personal opinion on your list, I agree on several points.

You want to have a standard vga port built in in case you have to do an impromptu projector hook up.

As for the webcam, basically I was saying that it should come standard, but there should be an option not to have it. Some people are not allowed to take cameras with them to work for security reasons.

 

[cwwilson]

Hello mac users. Don't get me wrong, I love my mac. My wife was in need of a new laptop because she did not like the MBP I handed down to her. She loves how it looks, but couldn't get used to the OS change. So we just ordered the HP Envy for her from HP.com. The specs are:

Windows 7 Professional 64-bit

Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-540M Dual Core processor (2.53GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) with Turbo Boost up to 3.06GHz

4GB DDR3 System Memory (2 Dimm

500GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive

1GB ATI Mobility Radeon(TM) HD 5830

15.6" diagonal Full High Definition LED HP Ultra Brightview Widescreen Display (1920x1080)

Intel Wireless-N Card with Bluetooth

6 Cell Lithium Ion Polymer Battery

To tell you the truth, i'm excited to see it because I think the macs will have the same setup. If so, and if the Envy rocks my uMBP, i'll upgrade to the new uMBP.

Wow those are great specs for the price! I wish my iMac had that GPU.

 

[Opstech]

I thought about getting one of these refreshed Envy 15s (with i5) after they were release early this year, but instead decided to wait.
I thought the Envy is a high end Top of the Line Notebook for which I get better Batterylife in Windows, better Linux drivers, and the specs will not come like this to a MBP. It took a lot of time to find out but eventually owners figured out that HP built into the Core i5 Notebooks a P55 Chipset (the same as for Quad Core i7). That is ridiculous as they have a H55 even in cheaper Notebooks.
For those who don't know P55 makes using the integrated GPU impossible (at least with ATI). You have to run on an HD5830 all the time which is clearly a bad idea if battery life is any concern.
There is a little DIE on there with a GPU completely without purpose and that is supposed to be a highend Notebook. The only reason to get a Core i5 Envy is because it runs cooler and more quiet but either get an core i7 battery eater power house or forget about the Envy.

That's the reason I chose the i5 for my wife. When we travel, she brings her laptop with us and likes to watch movies. That's why I upgraded the screen specs. I chose the i5 over the i7 because of battery life. I have confirmation from HP today that it will be here next Friday. I'll post pics and a full user review on youtube if you're interested. Just look up smcoats for the videos

 

[centrik]

I purchased an HP Envy 15 on January 5th and it finally arrived February 1st. I immediately had an issue with the fan, and sent it in for repair, since I was told an immediate exchange wasn't possible until they tried to repair it and failed.

I was told I would have it on the 9th. Then today, the 16th. Now March 2nd. I've been escalated up and up and am at a case manager right now. I'm trying to get a hold of an executive case manager right now. I've been lied to, shuffled around from person to person, and delayed.

Right now I want this laptop back to me ASAP so I can return it and wait for the macbook pro refresh. No matter how good the specs are, it's not worth risking having to deal with this **** customer service again.

Stay away from anything HP.

Oh btw, I'd recommend reading up on this machine over at notebookreview.com. It's having throttling issues with the CPU, and runs at 957 Mhz or 1.2 Ghz (depending on CPU) when on battery. The lid also only opens to a maximum of 100 degrees which is also annoying.

Do yourself a favor and pick up the Vaio Z or wait for the MBP.

 

[ronjon10]

Do yourself a favor and pick up the Vaio Z or wait for the MBP.

The new Arrandale Vaio Z's aren't out til mid march I believe.

 

[centrik]

The new Arrandale Vaio Z's aren't out til mid march I believe.

Then I'd hold off on purchasing an expensive laptop. Pick up a netbook or something cheap to get basic stuff done if need be, but stay away from the Envy.

 

[HLdan]

The 13" Envy has an average review of 4.8 stars compared to the 15" average review of 4 stars. Not only that, the 15" Envy is $200 cheaper base configuration than the 13" Envy.

I seriously doubt the next 15" MBP will have ATI 5830 graphics, nor include 1GB dedicated video RAM, nor have an option to 16GB RAM (because probably no 45W CPU), no Quad Core CPU, no dual drive configuration from Apple, no 3 USB ports, nor an eSATA port, nor an HDMI port, nor 1920x1080 HD display option, and DEFINITELY NO BLU-RAY!

It's an awful lot of compromise to be "stuck" with a MacBook Pro, isn't it? This is everyone's dream MBP, and it's too bad Apple will not give it to Apple Mac lovers. MBP buyers would gladly pay for every one of those options to get a MBP with the power and performance of the Envy. It's too bad that Apple doesn't really have a lot of BTO options to allow MBP buyers to configure the MBP they really want even if the costs are ridiculously high.

And yet you bought 2 Macbook Air's.

 

[gadgetfreaky]

I thought about getting one of these refreshed Envy 15s (with i5) after they were release early this year, but instead decided to wait.
I thought the Envy is a high end Top of the Line Notebook for which I get better Batterylife in Windows, better Linux drivers, and the specs will not come like this to a MBP. It took a lot of time to find out but eventually owners figured out that HP built into the Core i5 Notebooks a P55 Chipset (the same as for Quad Core i7). That is ridiculous as they have a H55 even in cheaper Notebooks.
For those who don't know P55 makes using the integrated GPU impossible (at least with ATI). You have to run on an HD5830 all the time which is clearly a bad idea if battery life is any concern.
There is a little DIE on there with a GPU completely without purpose and that is supposed to be a highend Notebook. The only reason to get a Core i5 Envy is because it runs cooler and more quiet but either get an core i7 battery eater power house or forget about the Envy.

Interesting info on the chipset.
Honestly I would rather have the i7-620 in there. nobody uses quad core yet anyway and by the time they do the 720 won't be very good.
I am hoping they come out with a Envy 17 and then do I7-620 and AT 5830 and a backlit keyboard. I know the customer service is bad but hey...apple ain't perfect either
hopefully they will do a new board in there.

 

[Fasailmac]

I purchased an HP Envy 15 on January 5th and it finally arrived February 1st. I immediately had an issue with the fan, and sent it in for repair, since I was told an immediate exchange wasn't possible until they tried to repair it and failed.

I was told I would have it on the 9th. Then today, the 16th. Now March 2nd. I've been escalated up and up and am at a case manager right now. I'm trying to get a hold of an executive case manager right now. I've been lied to, shuffled around from person to person, and delayed.

Right now I want this laptop back to me ASAP so I can return it and wait for the macbook pro refresh. No matter how good the specs are, it's not worth risking having to deal with this **** customer service again.

Stay away from anything HP.

One incident does not represent what others may experience. All companies have defective products and some individuals experience lackluster customer support. I couldnt decide on what to get so i got my parents a 15 macbook pro (2.66ghz) and i got myself a hp envy(i7 1.6, 6gb DDR3 etc, 15 cells of battery). Both computers have there strengths and weaknesses. Id give apple the edge on build quality, screen goes to HP(1920*1080, is amazing), performance goes the hp, battery goes to the macbook pro. They have about the same battery but this requires the the 15 cells of battery. Keyboard on both is good and the trackpad goes to the pro. The cooling is really good on the HP considering what it has on the inside. The envy cost me 1750 canadian plus tax and the pro was 2199 plus tax. If you can go without Os X, the envy is an awesome alternative. Im actually glad HP copied the macbook pro design, if you cant beat em, join em

Oh btw, I'd recommend reading up on this machine over at notebookreview.com. It's having throttling issues with the CPU, and runs at 957 Mhz or 1.2 Ghz (depending on CPU) when on battery. The lid also only opens to a maximum of 100 degrees which is also annoying.

Do yourself a favor and pick up the Vaio Z or wait for the MBP.

One incident does not represent what others may experience. All companies have defective products and some individuals experience lackluster customer support. I couldnt decide on what to get so i got my parents a 15 macbook pro (2.66ghz) and i got myself a hp envy(i7 1.6, 6gb DDR3 etc, 15 cells of battery). Both computers have there strengths and weaknesses. Id give apple the edge on build quality, screen goes to HP(1920*1080, is amazing), performance goes the hp, battery goes to the macbook pro. They have about the same battery but this requires the the 15 cells of battery. Keyboard on both is good and the trackpad goes to the pro. The cooling is really good on the HP considering what it has on the inside. The envy cost me 1750 canadian plus tax and the pro was 2199 plus tax. If you can go without Os X, the envy is an awesome alternative. Im actually glad HP copied the macbook pro design, if you cant beat em, join em

 

[gadgetfreaky]

One incident does not represent what others may experience. All companies have defective products and some individuals experience lackluster customer support. I couldnt decide on what to get so i got my parents a 15 macbook pro (2.66ghz) and i got myself a hp envy(i7 1.6, 6gb DDR3 etc, 15 cells of battery). Both computers have there strengths and weaknesses. Id give apple the edge on build quality, screen goes to HP(1920*1080, is amazing), performance goes the hp, battery goes to the macbook pro. They have about the same battery but this requires the the 15 cells of battery. Keyboard on both is good and the trackpad goes to the pro. The cooling is really good on the HP considering what it has on the inside. The envy cost me 1750 canadian plus tax and the pro was 2199 plus tax. If you can go without Os X, the envy is an awesome alternative. Im actually glad HP copied the macbook pro design, if you cant beat em, join em

i think this is about right. if you are happy with windows 7--an hp envy is a great alt and hopefully they make some bigger versions--i.e. 17 inch

i would like better resolution tho on hp 1920x1200

 

[GeneKam]

I am pretty exited a bout this actually. My laptop is kinda old, its winter 2007 santa rosa macbook. It does well, but i think its about time for an upgrade. I was actually looking at getting a macbook pro or hp envy, I get better bang for buck with ho at the moment, but as soon as core i7 comes out for macs, it actually becomes more expensive to get an hp. Keep us posted i want to see how this turns out, i might go HP

 

[mark28]

the price difference is not as much as you are making it out to be. Go check out a nice Dell Latitude or Precision or a HP Elitebook or Lenovo Thinkpad. I hate to say it, but the Envy is a poor engineered machine by comparison to the MacBook Pro. It feels filmsy and the magnesium panels are thin, the etching in the surface is rough and I would personally hate to have to rest at wrist against this. The trackpad is not nearly as functional, and my only experience with a 15" Envy was the one that had crashed Windows 7 at Fry's Electronics and when I tried to reboot it, it complain about a hardware issue and would not load windows at all. I was a little surprised no one noticed. The 13" Envy did not have these problems, but I still think I made the right decision about buying a MacBook Pro when I compared it to the working Envy. The 13" Envy seems more comparable to a MacBook Air with its low wattage processor and no optical drive though.

How about this laptop from Asus, costs only half of the price MBP. And Asus laptops are better than Apple in build quality

core i5-540
HD5730
500 Gb HDD
16 inch LED Display
65hw Battery ( just as much as battery as a MBP )

It even play crysis on high with very good framerates. So you're paying twice the amount of money just for looks? ( And the MBP is completely inferior to this machine for the same display size )

The new MBP better be good

edit: ok, the trackpad of MBP might be better. But that problem is solved by a mouse.

 

[Scottsdale]

And yet you bought 2 Macbook Air's.

That wasn't an issue for me. I compare ultraportables to my MBA, and I realize I make a lot of compromise to be "stuck" with my MBA. I don't need a professional grade computer to complete my daily computing workload. The MBP is an even bigger compromise within the "pro" laptop market... and that's my point. The MBA competes incredibly well against other ultraportables as a whole, but I don't believe the same of the MBP. Look at the options on the Envy, and it's obvious to see that Apple should at least be able to come close to competing with the components in the Envy.

If I needed a professional grade computer, I wouldn't see the value in a current MBP versus competing computers. Apple could make the MBP very competent and far less of a compromise versus PC counterparts. Apple should at least have BTO options for the MBP with options like:
HD Display
ATI 5830 Graphics (the MBP has essentially had an 8600 for 3.5 years - 9600 is rebranded 8600)
1 GB Dedicated Video RAM
Core i7 CPU in both Quad and Dual Cores
Up to 16GB RAM (with 45W Core i7 Quad)
Dual Drive Option
HDMI | eSata
BLU RAY

AND THOSE WERE THE COMPONENTS FOUND IN THE ENVY!!!

The Envy shows how outdated the MBP really is, and how bad it needs an update. I just hope Apple updates the MBP very soon to make it relevant again. I couldn't imagine paying full price for a MacBook Pro right now!

 

[vant]

That wasn't an issue for me. I compare ultraportables to my MBA, and I realize I make a lot of compromise to be "stuck" with my MBA. I don't need a professional grade computer to complete my daily computing workload. The MBP is an even bigger compromise within the "pro" laptop market... and that's my point. The MBA competes incredibly well against other ultraportables as a whole, but I don't believe the same of the MBP. Look at the options on the Envy, and it's obvious to see that Apple should at least be able to come close to competing with the components in the Envy.

If I needed a professional grade computer, I wouldn't see the value in a current MBP versus competing computers. Apple could make the MBP very competent and far less of a compromise versus PC counterparts. Apple should at least have BTO options for the MBP with options like:
HD Display
ATI 5830 Graphics (the MBP has essentially had an 8600 for 3.5 years - 9600 is rebranded 8600)
1 GB Dedicated Video RAM
Core i7 CPU in both Quad and Dual Cores
Up to 16GB RAM (with 45W Core i7 Quad)
Dual Drive Option
HDMI | eSata
BLU RAY

AND THOSE WERE THE COMPONENTS FOUND IN THE ENVY!!!

The Envy shows how outdated the MBP really is, and how bad it needs an update. I just hope Apple updates the MBP very soon to make it relevant again. I couldn't imagine paying full price for a MacBook Pro right now!

I assume you do everything in life based on specs? Your car? Your phone? Your SO? Your dog? Your house?

Clearly you see that you are not an ideal Apple customer. Apple consumers tend to appreciate qualities beyond what a piece of paper can describe.

 

[Tyrion]

I assume you do everything in life based on specs? Your car? Your phone? Your SO? Your dog? Your house?

Clearly you see that you are not an ideal Apple customer. Apple consumers tend to appreciate qualities beyond what a piece of paper can describe.

So "apple customers" (I'm one of those, actually) appreciate intangible, almost metaphysical qualities? Are they a religion? Please don't profess to speak for other people, it makes you look weird.

Also, there's a difference between "basing everything on specs" and simply expecting one's money's worth (i.e. solid, current-gen technology in a supposedly high-end laptop).

This whole comparison just goes to show that the MBP is currently an overpriced mid-range device. I mean, it's not even being compared to HP's actual professional laptops, the Elitebooks, and it's already losing.

 

[Patrick J]

So "apple customers" (I'm one of those, actually) appreciate intangible, almost metaphysical qualities? Are they a religion? Please don't profess to speak for other people, it makes you look weird.

Also, there's a difference between "basing everything on specs" and simply expecting one's money's worth (i.e. solid, current-gen technology in a supposedly high-end laptop).

This whole comparison just goes to show that the MBP is currently an overpriced mid-range device. I mean, it's not even being compared to HP's actual professional laptops, the Elitebooks, and it's already losing.

3 out of many reasons:

People buy Macbooks because of the OS - Certain people require certain OS exclusive Software. Does the Envy run Aperture or Mac OS? FAIL

Customer Support - my Macbook failed (Motherboard), and Apple shipped me a NEW ONE FROM CHINA (it had upgraded memory and harddrive) within the week, and gave me an additional 2 weeks to return the old one. One phone call was all that was needed - to Apple store, which was forwarded to someplace in Ireland. I bet if you phone HP with a dead laptop, de indian guy at de end of de line will say dat it is not da fault of HP, contact Mikrosoft. And vice-versa.

Hang on - I need to turn on the ceiling light to work on my Envy, it has no damned backlit keyboard.

 

[Tyrion]

3 out of many reasons:

People buy Macbooks because of the OS - Certain people require certain OS exclusive Software. Does the Envy run Aperture or Mac OS? FAIL

Customer Support - my Macbook failed (Motherboard), and Apple shipped me a NEW ONE FROM CHINA (it had upgraded memory and harddrive) within the week, and gave me an additional 2 weeks to return the old one. One phone call was all that was needed - to Apple store, which was forwarded to someplace in Ireland. I bet if you phone HP with a dead laptop, de indian guy at de end of de line will say dat it is not da fault of HP, contact Mikrosoft. And vice-versa.

Hang on - I need to turn on the ceiling light to work on my Envy, it has no damned backlit keyboard.

Strawman. OS X is fantastic, I never said it wasn't. Apple's support is good. I never said it wasn't. I merely said that the MBPs are ridiculous right now, even compared to HP's mid-range rip-off of the MBPs, not to mention HP's actual high-end machines. That should tell us something.
OS X, to me, is merely an additional feature (albeit a significant one) for which I am prepared to pay a premium, but it does not excuse outdated hardware. You know what would be great? Current and truly high-end hardware (as befits a "pro"-laptop) coupled with OS X in the MBP! That's what I want and that's what every other sane customer wants too, at these prices. So why are you making excuses for Apple?

 

[Patrick J]

Strawman. OS X is fantastic, I never said it wasn't. Apple's support is good. I never said it wasn't. I merely said that the MBPs are ridiculous right now, even compared to HP's mid-range rip-off of the MBPs, not to mention HP's actual high-end machines. That should tell us something.
OS X, to me, is merely an additional feature (albeit a significant one) for which I am prepared to pay a premium, but it does not excuse outdated hardware. You know what would be great? Current and truly high-end hardware (as befits a "pro"-laptop) coupled with OS X in the MBP! That's what I want and that's what every other sane customer wants too, at these prices. So why are you making excuses for Apple?

I agree that a Pro laptop could use better hardware. I am just saying that people buy a Macbook Pro for more things than just the hardware.

 

[Tyrion]

I agree that a Pro laptop could use better hardware. I am just saying that people buy a Macbook Pro for more things than just the hardware.

On that point, we can agree

 

[Maserati7200]

Why would you buy a new computer when you could have just installed windows on the old MBP?