Keyboard - Nail in the Coffin

[newellj]

Would a keyboard cover prolong the life of these rMBP keyboards?

my understanding is the culprit is dust getting underneath the keys and screwing up the sensor,

First, though I don't really know, I very strongly doubt that a little dust is screwing up these keyboards.

Second, take a look at these machines as they close. There are bare microns of clearance. There's no keyboard cover that would work (even if you could tolerate typing through it) that you could permanently have in place. I guess you could carry a keyboard condom around with you separately and put it on when you were ready to type...

 

[maflynn]

I very strongly doubt that a little dust is screwing up these keyboards.

People surmise that its the plastic scissor mechanism, the funny thing is, we've not really have heard too much about the MacBook keyboards failing so I think its a result of the latest design change to the keyboard.

 

[Melbourne Park]

I've worked in fairly large coorps, I'd say the simple fact that Apple's latest flagship iPhone can't connect with their flagship laptops without dongles is a pretty clear sign of organization dysfunction.

I suspect Apple will change to USB-3 eventually. The problem is though, that Samsung already have.

Incidentally, there are Lightning to USB-3 cables, lots of them. Its just untrue to say you can't connect an iPhone equiped with Lightning directly to a USB-3 port via a single cable. Or, you can buy a nice metal cable that takes converts USB-3 to USB-whatever. The cost of such a cable might trouble some people though, because the recommended retail including tax is $4.99.

 

[The Mercurian]

People surmise that its the plastic scissor mechanism, the funny thing is, we've not really have heard too much about the MacBook keyboards failing so I think its a result of the latest design change to the keyboard.

I have a second hand 2016 12" MB and some of the keys are a little gone. For example the right sided shift key (which is quite wide) only work properly if I press one side of it and not very well on the other side. I don't use this machine much so it doesn't really bother me, however if this was my main machine it would probably be a problem, or become a problem.

 

[newellj]

People surmise that its the plastic scissor mechanism, the funny thing is, we've not really have heard too much about the MacBook keyboards failing so I think its a result of the latest design change to the keyboard.

That would be my guess. But only the Big A really knows, and they ain't tellin'! I owned a 2015 rMB and truly hated the keyboard (contrary to my expectations, btw/fwiw). But I lost track of the 12" rMB - did it not get any generational improvements in the keyboard when it was refreshed? Edit - I see the report just above this post on a 2016 rMB.

 

[FrozenDarkness]

this thread is interesting. it seems like there are a lot of KB haters all over the macrumor forums now, although, the discussion point people seem to be providing is "I heard my mac tech guy say it's a big issue". We know that:

1) most macbook pros are probably still under warranty which means apple probably will fix most of these issues free of charge
2) a repair on the keyboard means a replacement of the ENTIRE bottom assembly ALONG with the battery which probably isn't cheap
3) Apple historically are slow to react to widespread customer complaints. This isn't new.

Personally, I've already had my keyboard replaced once on my 2016 13" macbook pro. I'd suspect that hwen youtubers start complaining, when the hundreds of pages on apple forums hits the news, apple will respond with a extended replacement program for the keyboard.

 

[newellj]

It's an interesting question and there might not be a consistent answer, but I wonder: which is more persuasive when a company confronts a situation like this: lots of publicity, that may not be especially accurate or representative of the real scope of the problem, or a cold, hard look at the cost of dealing with warranty and out-of-warranty repairs and the one-by-one loss of customer faith and loyalty?

 

[shaunp]

Are Apple really that nice with their customers or did you have to argue with the employees to get these?

I had two MBP's go wrong with GPU issues and at no point where Apple employees anything other than arrogant. Even went as far to say that I might have bought the wrong product because I wanted to plug in an external display and run a couple of VM's. Never fixed the problem and wouldn't even acknowledge there was one until I showed them a video of the issue - fan noise when using external display.

However I would have to agree with his point about not buying a new MBP because the keyboard apart from being flawed is just plain awful to use

 

[Melbourne Park]

I had two MBP's go wrong with GPU issues and at no point where Apple employees anything other than arrogant. Even went as far to say that I might have bought the wrong product because I wanted to plug in an external display and run a couple of VM's. Never fixed the problem and wouldn't even acknowledge there was one until I showed them a video of the issue - fan noise when using external display.

However I would have to agree with his point about not buying a new MBP because the keyboard apart from being flawed is just plain awful to use

Obviously then not the current 2017 MBPs.

You're actually saying avoid Apple at all costs.

 

[c0ppo]

You're actually saying avoid Apple at all costs.

At this moment, that is the sane thing to do. I love the feel of butterfly keyboards, but quality of them is worse then on 200$ laptop. And replacement costs are insane. Even if on warranty, being without a computer (if mbp will be your only computer) for some time is problematic. And I'm being kind to Apple here

 

[rukind2]

Many folks in our office used one....Ive been asking them and no one really complains except to say it's NOISY...but then these are company machines so they probably don't care.

I hate them...and I think given the new regime's outlook, we are stuck with them from this point on. I have allowed myself to become a slave to the mac ecosystem and now Im gonna have to start opening up my mind.

This is the issue that drives me and those around me nuts. The quality issues aside, the clicking noise the keys make and the pronounced increase in misspelled words compared to the 2015 MBP has me thinking about selling my 13” MBP.

 

[polee]

project 2501 wrote:
"The 2017 laptops are a warranty time bomb."

Might be the most cogent post in the thread.

If these units are having problems now -- right "out of production" -- what rate of failure will they be experiencing two, three, four years "down the line"?

Each time a key fails, does Apple have to replace the -entire- top case?
I wonder what this is costing them, "per repair"?

I wouldn't be surprised if two "successive" repairs wipes out the profit on a particular unit.

This design has the potential to be the most costly for Apple -- in terms of failures and goodwill -- than were the "RadeonGate" 2011 MBPro 15/17" models.

Just amazing that apple has not made serious attempts to address the problem for the MacBook Pro and also the Macbook. Maybe when cooler chips come out, then the heat issue will be resolved. However, this even happens with the Macbook 2017 which I have purchased (less heat from the 2017 chip) which has the butterfly version 2 keyboard. I remember some of the keys suddenly becoming soft and I have to clean it with a blower. Strange that this issue never happened with my Macbook 2015. This is so perplexing to say the least.

 

[shaunp]

Obviously then not the current 2017 MBPs.

You're actually saying avoid Apple at all costs.

No, not current ones - they seem stuck at 16GB RAM for some bizarre reason.

I'm not saying avoid Apple at all costs, I'm saying their build quality isn't that good given the price. Other brands have better build quality and don't sacrifice functionality for style.

 

[Poki]

No, not current ones - they seem stuck at 16GB RAM for some bizarre reason.

I'm not saying avoid Apple at all costs, I'm saying their build quality isn't that good given the price. Other brands have better build quality and don't sacrifice functionality for style.

I don't know of any notebook with better build quality than a MacBook Pro. Sure, the keyboard might have some problems, but the overall build quality is far superior to any competitor. The structural integrity is amazing, the tolerances are tiny, there's pretty much no keyboard flex, the glass trackpad is absolutely perfect, and there's no plastic in the body itself, not even on the hinge.

Also, it's not a "bizarre reason" -- Intel still doesn't support LPDDR4 memory, so Apple's only option to get to 32 GB RAM would be using DDR3 or DDR4 instead of LPDDR3, which would decrease battery life.

 

[rillrill]

Sold my MacBook 2017 - taking a small hit on it too. I can’t risk having the keyboard fail out of warranty. I will never buy another Apple laptop again. I know that sounds hyperbolic and extreme, but it’s true and felt from the pit of my stomach. My faith in this company is waning, but I’ve worked with Macs and iOS for so long, my documents are all for iWork and Macs, it’s hard to completely leave. My wife and I are looking into iMacs, but honestly, I just don’t want to get one. Why can’t Apple make a well-built laptop?

 

[shaunp]

I don't know of any notebook with better build quality than a MacBook Pro. Sure, the keyboard might have some problems, but the overall build quality is far superior to any competitor. The structural integrity is amazing, the tolerances are tiny, there's pretty much no keyboard flex, the glass trackpad is absolutely perfect, and there's no plastic in the body itself, not even on the hinge.

Also, it's not a "bizarre reason" -- Intel still doesn't support LPDDR4 memory, so Apple's only option to get to 32 GB RAM would be using DDR3 or DDR4 instead of LPDDR3, which would decrease battery life.

Build quality. The structural quality of Macbooks is fine, it's the internals that I've always had a problem with - too many failing GPU's and fan issues. Funny though I never get this on Thinkpads or Dell Precision.

RAM. And there's the answer - don't use LPDDR4!!! Use DDR4 like everyone else so you can actually increase the memory size. Dell XPS 15 can have 32GB RAM, and it's not exactly a fat laptop. Apple decided to make their laptops just that bit too small so they can't do this as it would eat into space for the battery. Considering they are pitching the MBP as a workstation class laptop, not an ultrabook extra RAM is a little bit more important than making it 2mm thinner. I made up the 2mm figure btw, but you get the idea - you can make things thinner to a point, then the design becomes compromised. Defend Apple as much as you like here, the simple fact is if you require more than 16GB RAM in a laptop Apple cannot provide this today, but the competition have been doing this for years even in their thin and light models. This is simply inexcusable for a laptop costing to much.

 

[Melbourne Park]

I've had a crap Apple notebook before - the 15" Titanium Powerbook. It was light for its day, but the titanium was too thin. The CD player underneath my wrist would flex. Then the sides started to split. Apple then went to an alloy casing. Later, they brought out the milled alloy construction, which was a brilliant idea.

So, Apple have made mistakes before.

My 2017 is awesome, and its very stable too.

People complain about not having 32 GB Ram. But I had only 4 GB on my Air - it still worked darn well. My MacPro though can take 128GB of RAM. So 32GB isn't much after all.

These things might be fast, but primarily, they are notebooks - they are built to be light. They are not perfect. But the 2017 gives you light weight, and good performance. And a nice display. For me, a great keyboard. The cost of ports is peanuts, but it is an inconvenience. But one that is becoming the new standard. If people really want more RAM and more power - get a desktop guys. The 2017 is very light and has some performance. It ain't perfect. But its cost me in real dollars one fifth the cost of my Apple Titanium Powerbook.

 

[shaunp]

I've had a crap Apple notebook before - the 15" Titanium Powerbook. It was light for its day, but the titanium was too thin. The CD player underneath my wrist would flex. Then the sides started to split. Apple then went to an alloy casing. Later, they brought out the milled alloy construction, which was a brilliant idea.

So, Apple have made mistakes before.

My 2017 is awesome, and its very stable too.

People complain about not having 32 GB Ram. But I had only 4 GB on my Air - it still worked darn well. My MacPro though can take 128GB of RAM. So 32GB isn't much after all.

These things might be fast, but primarily, they are notebooks - they are built to be light. They are not perfect. But the 2017 gives you light weight, and good performance. And a nice display. For me, a great keyboard. The cost of ports is peanuts, but it is an inconvenience. But one that is becoming the new standard. If people really want more RAM and more power - get a desktop guys. The 2017 is very light and has some performance. It ain't perfect. But its cost me in real dollars one fifth the cost of my Apple Titanium Powerbook.

The reason most complain about the lack of RAM on the new ones is because of the need to run mobile VM labs. These things just need RAM, and if we could get 128GB we'd have it. Just happens 32GB is the limit in a thin laptop, and 64GB in workstation laptop. That doesn't mean to say I'd carry something around that is the size of a 1980's laptop to get 128GB

 

[PBG4 Dude]

The reason most complain about the lack of RAM on the new ones is because of the need to run mobile VM labs. These things just need RAM, and if we could get 128GB we'd have it. Just happens 32GB is the limit in a thin laptop, and 64GB in workstation laptop. That doesn't mean to say I'd carry something around that is the size of a 1980's laptop to get 128GB

1980s laptops were called luggables and weighed upwards of 25 pounds and had to be plugged in to work.

Here is a TRS-80 Model 4P (P for Portable).

Two (2) ports!

 

[ugru]

Also, it's not a "bizarre reason" -- Intel still doesn't support LPDDR4 memory, so Apple's only option to get to 32 GB RAM would be using DDR3 or DDR4 instead of LPDDR3, which would decrease battery life.

Only because Apple, for some bizarre reasons, slashed 25% of the battery capacity like they did for 2016/2017 rMBP

 

[macmesser]

I have a 2016 MBP with touchbar and I absolutely hate the keyboard. I just returned from a 2 week trip with the touchbar keyboard and I wanted to hurl the machine against the wall; I kept making so many mistakes. I am now thinking of just using the new MBP to replace my 2008 iMac plus an external keyboard and mouse. Is there any way to get Apple to put on a newer keyboard? I heard they changed the keyboard after the initial release. Good God! I am typing this on my older MBPr and it is great for typing. I can type without looking and not make more mistakes than I can count. Any ideas?

Sorry to reply so long after your post. I have the late '16 MBPro as well and typing is problematic for me. What happens is that the insertion point will move, sometimes wildly and I lose track of where it is, or sometimes to a different point in the same line. The result is garbled typing and if I don't notice it soon enough whole tracts can be affected by inserting fragments of words and/or sentences randomly into properly typed text. When it happens it generally inserts into several locations so is very hard to correct when noticed. Does this ring a bell? I have seen talk about keyboards but I didn't think the problem with my months-old machine was the keyboard. It seemed like maybe the trackpad was overly sensitive and that possibly the machine was just suer hard to type with (equally bad as defective keyboard), but now I think it could be either.

 

[rukind2]

Sorry to reply so long after your post. I have the late '16 MBPro as well and typing is problematic for me. What happens is that the insertion point will move, sometimes wildly and I lose track of where it is, or sometimes to a different point in the same line. The result is garbled typing and if I don't notice it soon enough whole tracts can be affected by inserting fragments of words and/or sentences randomly into properly typed text. When it happens it generally inserts into several locations so is very hard to correct when noticed. Does this ring a bell? I have seen talk about keyboards but I didn't think the problem with my months-old machine was the keyboard. It seemed like maybe the trackpad was overly sensitive and that possibly the machine was just suer hard to type with (equally bad as defective keyboard), but now I think it could be either.

I have the same issue with the insertion point moving. Drives me nuts.

 

[GtrDude]

Delete

 

[macmesser]

I have the same issue with the insertion point moving. Drives me nuts.

It's driving me nuts as well. Do you have any ideas as to whether it's caused by keyboard problems, trackpad problems or typing technique? Have you tried any failed remedies?

 

[AmazingRobie]

Apples new slogan should be, "We make expensive garbage and don't care who gets screwed as long as we get their money, let us stop fake news like we make expensive garbage and steal other peoples designs, plus we sell our personal stock to raise our quarterly earnings and warehouse the product until the holiday season then sell to Walmart, now go back to sleep or we'll kill you!" Hahahahaha, Bunch of CLOWNsssssss...