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Keyboard - Nail in the Coffin
- Thread starter CaptRB
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When they can't even keep broken keyboards off the display tables in the stores, you should KNOW there is a major issue with reliability.
I think you will find it does just that. Causation is another matter although there seems to be enough circumstantial evidence to point towards that too.
Agreed. Negative ownership incidents are more likely to be shared than positive ones. For every single customer sharing a negative experience, there could be a significant number of customers with very positive experience who just did not share that experience.
Even polls are not necessarily accurate representations, both in regards to who is replying to them and how the questions are rarely well-formulated (and are probably not tested). But even these polls suggest some patterns, in that, A) quite a few owners do not have any keyboard issues at all, and B) more than few vocal individuals have experienced issues.
This question obviously violates several principles of sound instrument design. And yet, with the exception of Apple, no one really has any better data than this to determine the true scope of the problem.
https://9to5mac.com/2017/02/22/apple-butterfly-keyboard-poll/
I talked to a tier 2 Apple rep (because the person who called me who is 'above' them and hasn't gotten back to me yet) for about 45 minutes today, since that person was on vacation.
I explained my lack of confidence in the keyboard, the repair being something like $750, and how that forces me into buying AppleCare. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be offered a refund, but then I had an unexpected feeling...
I spent about 5 hours last night working on a project and I told them that my 15" MBP is a monster it's just the keyboard that really worries me. We talked about the 2011 GPU time bombs and all of that, and the fact that the geniuses at my visits have said my keyboard problems could be "a piece of dust" (the same phrase with multiple people), and that Apple is posting a page about dealing with it. Then I mentioned that I can't think of a keyboard being the Achille's heel of a computer, especially if a single key double-hitting requires an entire top case and a massive repair bill. I mentioned that Apple as a corporation doesn't issue recalls to owners, but if you happen to know about repair programs (which appear to only be after class actions), like the 2011 GPUs, then you are okay. I think that's wrong and this keyboard seems like it could be heading in the same direction.
I couldn't shake the feeling that I don't want to get rid of my MBP, though an iMac would be nice but wouldn't give me the portability. I'm kind of hoping for an offer of AppleCare at no cost, which probably wouldn't instill confidence in they keyboard, but it's better than losing $1,000 (after eBay fees) to sell it.
I was surprised by my wincing at returning it and getting an iMac to replace it. Curiouser and curiouser...
I explained my lack of confidence in the keyboard, the repair being something like $750, and how that forces me into buying AppleCare. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be offered a refund, but then I had an unexpected feeling...
I spent about 5 hours last night working on a project and I told them that my 15" MBP is a monster it's just the keyboard that really worries me. We talked about the 2011 GPU time bombs and all of that, and the fact that the geniuses at my visits have said my keyboard problems could be "a piece of dust" (the same phrase with multiple people), and that Apple is posting a page about dealing with it. Then I mentioned that I can't think of a keyboard being the Achille's heel of a computer, especially if a single key double-hitting requires an entire top case and a massive repair bill. I mentioned that Apple as a corporation doesn't issue recalls to owners, but if you happen to know about repair programs (which appear to only be after class actions), like the 2011 GPUs, then you are okay. I think that's wrong and this keyboard seems like it could be heading in the same direction.
I couldn't shake the feeling that I don't want to get rid of my MBP, though an iMac would be nice but wouldn't give me the portability. I'm kind of hoping for an offer of AppleCare at no cost, which probably wouldn't instill confidence in they keyboard, but it's better than losing $1,000 (after eBay fees) to sell it.
I was surprised by my wincing at returning it and getting an iMac to replace it. Curiouser and curiouser...
Many folks in our office used one....Ive been asking them and no one really complains except to say it's NOISY...but then these are company machines so they probably don't care.
I hate them...and I think given the new regime's outlook, we are stuck with them from this point on. I have allowed myself to become a slave to the mac ecosystem and now Im gonna have to start opening up my mind.
I hate them...and I think given the new regime's outlook, we are stuck with them from this point on. I have allowed myself to become a slave to the mac ecosystem and now Im gonna have to start opening up my mind.
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They have one on how to clean the display too. Clear evidence that the screen is the faultiest ever.
If there are millions of threads, it shows the scale of an issue. Btw, this new keabord is a cheap disaster. I have the 2015 mbp and 2017 mbp. Working on both. The new keyboard is a massive step backwards
I just have had the keyboard on my mbp 2016 replaced with a 2017 version. There is a very distinct difference. Apple has done something to give me the feeling that I want to type on this keyboard again. It feels correct and even across all keys now. Hated the mushy and sticky keypresses of the 2016, especially when the machine got warmer. So yeah, it is not a great keyboard, I also prefer the pre-2016 ones, but at least it's now acceptable and does not feel cheap in any way anymore.
Wake up!!! The keyboard on the 16/17 MBP's is a reliability nightmare and thats a fact.
So based on your poll, there's combined 46,8% of user doesn't like the butterfly keyboard and/or like it but experience issue. The rest 8.54% user have other reason but clearly don't like it, otherwise they would have said so.
So what exactly is your point again?
Green86 has a point, but your point is (in my opinion) the stronger point. Let's face it: the fact that there's ANY discussion at all about failing keyboards is a major red flag. Really. When was the last time you saw people complaining about keyboard *failure*? I'm not talking about "I hate the feel/experience" (which I do) or "it really gets in the way of my typing" (which for me it does). I'm talking about keyboards *dying.* Even in small numbers, that's crazy.
Even with their faults, which are in my opinion several and significant, the 2017 is a really seductive piece of hardware. I'm not surprised you feel that way.
There's a lot I really don't like about the 2017s, but I might be willing to try to re-learn and re-wire my relationship to my laptop *IF* I thought it would be around long enough to make that worthwhile. With the keyboard reliability issues, you basically have to buy AppleCare+ and in my opinion, at this time, you have to be committed to possibly taking a big loss on resale before the end of three years because owning it after AC expires looks like a very bad bet.
I might be wrong. Maybe Apple will come up with a service replacement design that solves the problem so after a couple of replacements it's magically fixed for the (otherwise) life of the machine. But I strongly doubt it.
There's a lot I really don't like about the 2017s, but I might be willing to try to re-learn and re-wire my relationship to my laptop *IF* I thought it would be around long enough to make that worthwhile. With the keyboard reliability issues, you basically have to buy AppleCare+ and in my opinion, at this time, you have to be committed to possibly taking a big loss on resale before the end of three years because owning it after AC expires looks like a very bad bet.
I might be wrong. Maybe Apple will come up with a service replacement design that solves the problem so after a couple of replacements it's magically fixed for the (otherwise) life of the machine. But I strongly doubt it.
My rant was purely from a comfort pov but this thread seems to be hijacked by reliability issues which, if true, is another major negative about this clear disaster in design. It is all about how you frame the question, if, for example, I had a BTO option of choosing between the legacy design and the current one, I would take legacy. Without that option, it's like im forcing my mind to accept this design compromise.
I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't express your opinion. I'm just saying you could have used one of the many threads already out there. For some of us eagerly awaiting the next gen MBPs and reading through this forum a lot due to this, all the keyboard discussions do get a little tiring.
That's also kinda subjective, isn't it? Many people like this keyboard, and I don't really think there's a single formula for how a keyboard "should be".
This. It's the lack of confidence in Apple to do the right thing and offer a free replacement plan for the keyboard. Eat the costs, Apple, and gain back the confidence of your customers.
I picked up a refurb 2015 dGPU 15" last week and am selling the 2017. For me it is more about reliability and the ability to just grab my laptop and feel confident I don't need a bunch of adapters. The closest Apple Store is a good hour roundtrip, plus them going through all of the software diagnostics to look at a hardware defect. I would rather have reliability.
It surprised me how much better it felt typing back on the 2015 MBP keyboard. Hopefully they will continue to iterate on the design and make it more Pro friendly. I put the two side by side, compared speed, screen quality, etc, and found there are just too many trade offs on the 2017 for me just to have a better GPU and screen.
I even sold my 2017 15" with AC+ at a decent loss. Seems to be so low demand for them right now and they are regularly being heavily discounted on sites like B&H and Best Buy.
It surprised me how much better it felt typing back on the 2015 MBP keyboard. Hopefully they will continue to iterate on the design and make it more Pro friendly. I put the two side by side, compared speed, screen quality, etc, and found there are just too many trade offs on the 2017 for me just to have a better GPU and screen.
I even sold my 2017 15" with AC+ at a decent loss. Seems to be so low demand for them right now and they are regularly being heavily discounted on sites like B&H and Best Buy.
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Yep exactly i've never heard a person complain about any of the previous keyboards on the Pros or airs. I want to upgrade my 2011 air but have to wait till Apple fix that damn keyboard
I owned the 2016 MBP for a week and the rest of the machine was perfect, just spoiled by a keyboard that gets defeated by a small amount of dust. It does not help when you have people trying to say there is no issue, you would think Apple is some kind of god the way some people defend them.
No idea who's buying them, equally yet to see the new design used in any remotely professional environment. Window 10 works for me with few if any issues, although not the environment of my preference. Linux is looking to be the better option with the choice of Apple or Windows hardware, however not Apple's latest and greatest for obvious reasons...
Q-6
(TLDR - we're in the midsts of a bit of a hot mess!)
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That a problem exists but we do not have any way of knowing how extensive it is. Further, that some people like the keyboard where as others dislike it. We do know for a fact that negative User experiences are more commonly reported than positive ones.
On one hand, many people using the keyboard do not experience a problem. I can't discount their experience or my own which has not had an issue with two butterfly mechanism-driven machines. On the other hand, some people using the keyboard do experience a problem - beyond the threads on here, I've personally checked in MBPs with keyboard issues that did not appear to be caused by neglect. So I certainly can't discount their experience either. That poll could severely underreport those experiencing issues; it could also severely overreport it.
It might severely underrepresent those who like the keyboard; it might also overrepresent those who like it. It might tell us a lot or very little; or it might lead us to completely false conclusions - and yet, commonly, that's the closest we get to having harder data and it may be the closest we get unless some independent agency commissions an ownership study (and that study happens to be of reasonably sound design.)
So my point is that this is a bit of a hot mess.
To get back to the OP's original take (to whom I apologize to for the hijacking), the OP reported on a subjective opinion - which IMO is completely fair game. IMO he/she/they/them has all the right to do this in the world. The OP used the terms "IMHO" and "seems like" - that's clearly conveying a personal opinion instead of making a blanket statement in factually-worded terms. Simultaneously, I do feel it is important to recognize that negative takes are more likely to be reported than positive ones.
I like the new keyboard for it's nice clicky feedback and the wide and stable keys. I think it could be a really good keyboard with a bit more key travel, but over all in terms of usability I _quite_ like it. Long term comfort is sacrificed due to the near non-existent key travel, but it's not a huge issue personally.
However, the reliability and design from a repairability standpoint is brain-dead stupid. I'm on my 4th model, 3 of them were 2016 models and finally they gave me a 2017 replacement due to my persistent issues (every one with keyboard issues, although two of them also had creaking and speaker issues too). 1 out of the 4 went in for a repair, which happened - but the keyboard was bad on that too - so technically had keyboard issues 4 times - if any keyboard issues arise on this 2017 model, it'd be the 5th.
Whilst it's hard to tell without proper stats, every genius bar person I've spoken to has told me they've had a huge amount of people coming in with keyboard issues and that the repairs are basically impossible to do without a full top-side replacement. There is apparently a way to remove and put a key back on, but the tolerances are so low that getting that right without breaking something is unlikely, even for the genius bar guys.
As I said, whilst I do like some characteristics of this keyboard design, I do sympathise with people who don't like it. People have different preferences and this keyboard leans way too far one way for it to have the same level of acceptability to a board audience as the previous one did. I like (and still use at work) the retina macbook pro keyboard, but I thought the keys were a bit wobblier and mushier than i'd like, but it was still acceptable to me it was a keyboard that compromised to be usable and comfortable for a wide range of people.
The new Macbook Pro keyboard does not do that. And it's an unreliable piece of **** - and to top it off - basically unrepairable. Repairs typically require a top-side replacement which is expensive and includes replacing entirely unrelated components (driving the cost up).
However, the reliability and design from a repairability standpoint is brain-dead stupid. I'm on my 4th model, 3 of them were 2016 models and finally they gave me a 2017 replacement due to my persistent issues (every one with keyboard issues, although two of them also had creaking and speaker issues too). 1 out of the 4 went in for a repair, which happened - but the keyboard was bad on that too - so technically had keyboard issues 4 times - if any keyboard issues arise on this 2017 model, it'd be the 5th.
Whilst it's hard to tell without proper stats, every genius bar person I've spoken to has told me they've had a huge amount of people coming in with keyboard issues and that the repairs are basically impossible to do without a full top-side replacement. There is apparently a way to remove and put a key back on, but the tolerances are so low that getting that right without breaking something is unlikely, even for the genius bar guys.
As I said, whilst I do like some characteristics of this keyboard design, I do sympathise with people who don't like it. People have different preferences and this keyboard leans way too far one way for it to have the same level of acceptability to a board audience as the previous one did. I like (and still use at work) the retina macbook pro keyboard, but I thought the keys were a bit wobblier and mushier than i'd like, but it was still acceptable to me it was a keyboard that compromised to be usable and comfortable for a wide range of people.
The new Macbook Pro keyboard does not do that. And it's an unreliable piece of **** - and to top it off - basically unrepairable. Repairs typically require a top-side replacement which is expensive and includes replacing entirely unrelated components (driving the cost up).
I think they're going to have to design a reliable replacement for the keyboard (probably being worked on now). They could just keep replacing them until the warranties expire, but I think in the end, they could face a class action lawsuit.
Feel like they're going to be forced to offer a longer-term solution very soon. Early adopters of the Late 2016 are just running out of their warranties now if they didn't opt for Applecare. There's going to be a whole lot of angry customers if they are being charged $800 to repair and a very, very prompt class-action lawsuit.
