Kuo: Apple AR Headset Coming in Late 2022 With Mac-Level Computing Power

[Unregistered 4U]

How many people already got bored with Oculus and PlayStation VR?

The important thing is, though, that in order to get BORED with it, they had to BUY it first! Facebook and Sony HAS their money by that point! And, in both cases, the amount of money they received was enough to continue to iterate. And, that’s part of what I’m saying, neither Sony nor Facebook has taken over the world with VR, but, at the price they’re selling them for, they’re making enough to continue to invest in the idea.

It’s possible that, like High performance motor sports or miniature painting, VR/AR never becomes any more than a niche. But, that niche would matter to the millions of people having a great time doing it and would be profitable for the companies marketing to it.

 

[Jensend]

How many people already got bored with Oculus and PlayStation VR?

I'll admit that I've been using VR a lot less recently, but a lot of that is just because there isn't as much content available for VR. Creators can't put as much money towards is because there are fewer people to buy stuff. The resolution and comfort of my Index setup isn't good enough for me to do traditional 2D tasks in VR for an extended period of time. But if had 4k*4k resolution per eye, was 1/3 the weight, and wireless, I could use it for a lot more.

It doesn’t look like an untapped market. It looks like one that has had many chances but just isn’t practical after so many attempts.

Decent consumer VR is only five years old (HTC VIVE). Decent stand-alone VR is only two years old (Oculus Quest). A couple of crappy attempts at VR in the 90's when we could barely even render extremely simple 3D graphics at low resolutions are irrelevant.

It makes kids feel nausea. Most adults hate it.

Please back up your claims. The primary issue for kids is that their eyes are too close together. When the market is big enough, there could be headsets designed for different IPDs (interpupillary distance), just like Apple has different watch sizes.

You can’t ask people over 50 to use it, they suffer from enough neck and back pain already.

What if it's significantly lighter than today's headsets? Older people also suffer from diminished eyesight, and could benefit from large virtual screens instead of a small phone and watch screens.

Playing games with a keyboard and mouse is faster and more precise than gaming in VR.

Nonsense. How do you play Beat Saber with a mouse and keyboard?
What you're really claiming is that games designed for a mouse and keyboard are best played with a mouse and keyboard. Well, duh.
I can spin around faster in a desktop FPS than in VR, but aiming a mouse cursor isn't nearly as satisfying as aiming with a VR gun.

 

[Jensend]

and like I've mentioned before, the content makers aren't using apple frameworks and nothing high budget would every be. if a unity game fails on the Nintendo switch, it can easily be ported to other consoles, pc or even mobile. if a SpriteKit/scenekit game fails on apple hardware, it ain't gonna get ported to other platforms, it'd be starting over from scratch and this is the kind of risk no one is going to bother with.

I'm not sure what your point is.
How is this any different from Android vs iOS/iPadOS?

Just read hundreds of stories online of gamers and streamers getting burned out in front of their screen and imagine how it will feel the way you put it.

‘I am not gonna die on the internet for you!’: how game streaming went from dream job to a burnout nightmare

Gamers are making millions by playing on livestream platforms such as Twitch. But when fame and money counts on you always being on, can you ever switch off?

www.theguardian.com

What does burnout from working too many hours have to do with replacing traditional screens and devices with VR?

 

[metapunk2077fail]

Please back up your claims. The primary issue for kids is that their eyes are too close together. When the market is big enough, there could be headsets designed for different IPDs (interpupillary distance), just like Apple has different watch sizes.

What if it's significantly lighter than today's headsets? Older people also suffer from diminished eyesight, and could benefit from large virtual screens instead of a small phone and watch screens.

Nonsense. How do you play Beat Saber with a mouse and keyboard?
What you're really claiming is that games designed for a mouse and keyboard are best played with a mouse and keyboard. Well, duh.
I can spin around faster in a desktop FPS than in VR, but aiming a mouse cursor isn't nearly as satisfying as aiming with a VR gun.

The answers to your q's above are too obvious but I'll do it.

Try running around in VR and spinning to a player behind you. It's not something you want to do often when you can't even see your feet or your physical environment. Yes, I have walked into a wall when using VR. Yes it was painful.

Beat Saber can be played equally well on touch screens (Fruit Ninja style) or the dual analogue sticks found on controllers.

Older people. Above 40 years old our spine and necks begin to degrade and by 50 we start to suffer from wear and tear. Please don't tell older fork to spend time in this stuff for more than brief periods.

Kids absolutely should not use VR extensively. Their senses and interactivity need to develop in a real world social environment. As a parent I would not let a child even think of VR until they are in their mid-teens.

I recall reading many interviews from Silicon Valley CEOs and VCs few years ago when people began to realise how bad Facebook is. All of them said they controlled how much time their children spent online, took away their phones after 8PM and didn't let them game late at night.

Let's see if they have the same responsible attitude when they try to sell VR/metaverse to people who aren't their family.

 

[Jensend]

Try running around in VR and spinning to a player behind you. It's not something you want to do often when you can't even see your feet or your physical environment. Yes, I have walked into a wall when using VR. Yes it was painful.

I've played a VR shooter on the weekends with my friends for years. I've had no issues with turning around. It's not as fast as using a mouse to turn around, but all my opponents have the same limitation, so that isn't an issue.

Beat Saber can be played equally well on touch screens (Fruit Ninja style) or the dual analogue sticks found on controllers.

Touch screens can't determine which finger is which, so it would have to be a dumbed down version. Dual analog also doesn't have enough fidelity to recreate hand movements.
VR controllers can control more axes of motion with more intuitiveness than any game controller. The fidelity is high enough that I can juggle in VR, in apps that were not designed at all for juggling. I can't do that with a gamepad.
VR gives you three simultaneous 6-axis inputs that you can use, in addition to traditional gamepad controls. You simply can't replace all of that with a mouse/kb or gamepad.

Older people. Above 40 years old our spine and necks begin to degrade and by 50 we start to suffer from wear and tear. Please don't tell older fork to spend time in this stuff for more than brief periods.

Well, I'm going to be in that first category in a year. I fail to see how making people more active is a bad thing. But VR doesn't require a lot of movement if that isn't your thing.

Kids absolutely should not use VR extensively. Their senses and interactivity need to develop in a real world social environment. As a parent I would not let a child even think of VR until they are in their mid-teens.

Ok, but they shouldn't be using any screens extensively, except perhaps e-ink books. I don't see how this is unique to VR.

I recall reading many interviews from Silicon Valley CEOs and VCs few years ago when people began to realise how bad Facebook is. All of them said they controlled how much time their children spent online, took away their phones after 8PM and didn't let them game late at night.

Sounds good to me.

 

[ponzicoinbro]

This conversation reminds me of those crypto fanatics who think the next internet will be “web3” which will be meta verse and everything tokenized.

Those observations above apply to ”web3” also. How are children, unemployed people, retired people, homeless people supposed to take part in an internet that has gone VR and everything requires volatile pyramid scheme tokens? These are people with no income, or low income or tight budgets. They would not be able to even afford this way of using the internet. It would make them broker than broke and all their money would go to thieving snakes who create this crap.

Hypers of these visions are really terrible fanatics and the less we hear from them the better.

 

[Jensend]

This conversation reminds me of those crypto fanatics who think the next internet will be “web3” which will be meta verse and everything tokenized.

Those observations above apply to ”web3” also. How are children, unemployed people, retired people, homeless people supposed to take part in an internet that has gone VR and everything requires volatile pyramid scheme tokens? These are people with no income, or low income or tight budgets. They would not be able to even afford this way of using the internet. It would make them broker than broke and all their money would go to thieving snakes who create this crap.

Hypers of these visions are really terrible fanatics and the less we hear from them the better.

Because I like VR and see it becoming more prevalent in the future, that means I hate poor people and am the same as people who buy receipts that say they own ugly ape illustrations?

 

[topdrawer]

I'm not sure what your point is.
How is this any different from Android vs iOS/iPadOS?

the point is that the content for android and iOS is mostly created in third party engines not on apple's frameworks. this insures that android and pc get first dibs at everything because that's where the talent is. if apple makes a "revolutionary" unique product, no one is gonna create unique content for it because they are gonna stick to VR/AR tools available for other devices. any unique feature apple includes, will be ignored or worse their vr headset will get the least amount of content because of their development tools like they do now.

 

[happygodavid]

No chance.

Just read hundreds of stories online of gamers and streamers getting burned out in front of their screen and imagine how it will feel the way you put it.

‘I am not gonna die on the internet for you!’: how game streaming went from dream job to a burnout nightmare

Gamers are making millions by playing on livestream platforms such as Twitch. But when fame and money counts on you always being on, can you ever switch off?

www.theguardian.com

As pointed out by others above.

Kids can't do this.

Aging people can't do this.

Old people can't do this.

People with real lives can't do this.

People who like to socialize in person can't do this.

Many will be shouting Death to Allegra Geller at this space.

VR will always be a very limited use case because it's uncomfortable to use for any long amount of time.

We are going to be multi-device users for as long as you can think of.

AR will succeed better but there will be many visual bugs for a long time.

We can't even get desktop operating systems without visual bugs after 50 years of development.

Time for an Expectations vs Reality Meme

Ok, you raise some fair points. I imagine this, though: I put on a pair of glasses, and my living room wall turns into a 100” pixel perfect theater screen. Doesn’t take much to imagine things like that to sell me on the idea of AR being far more than a gimmick once it’s past its infancy.
What I hate to see is everyone being buried in screens all the time. I leave my phone on DND 24/7 because I hate the attachment. AR is gonna turn Wall-E into a reality in some ways, and I don’t think it’s for the betterment of humanity. There will be some cool things, though, like paying for floor side seats at an NBA game but being in my living room. Anyhoo, just pondering the possibilities.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

These are people with no income, or low income or tight budgets.

People with no income, low income or tight budgets can’t do a LOT of things, much less VR/AR. If none of them are able to use VR/AR, there are still millions of others that can and will. There are lots of business models that don’t require providing solutions for people with no income.

 

[Jensend]

the point is that the content for android and iOS is mostly created in third party engines not on apple's frameworks. this insures that android and pc get first dibs at everything because that's where the talent is. if apple makes a "revolutionary" unique product, no one is gonna create unique content for it because they are gonna stick to VR/AR tools available for other devices. any unique feature apple includes, will be ignored or worse their vr headset will get the least amount of content because of their development tools like they do now.

My understanding is that iOS is usually a higher priority than Android for mobile app developers. While iPhone may have an overall lower share of the device market than Android, it has a bigger share of the market of people willing to buy apps. This is even more true in the tablet space.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

Ok, you raise some fair points. I imagine this, though: I put on a pair of glasses, and my living room wall turns into a 100” pixel perfect theater screen.

The first time I used a virtual headset with virtual display was the late 90s so it has been going on for a while.

In VR virtual cinemas already exists. It's not a comfortable experience and the quality won't be as good as a physical screen. In the MacBook Pro forum we actually have people complaining about the amazing new display on the 2021 models so I can already imagine them nagging about virtual displays.

In AR glasses, the fidelity won't be there for a while. Who knows if ever. A high fidelity virtual AR display needs quite a powerful projection to prevent your environment's light from infusing with the image. There are safety concerns with firing this strong amount of light from a small AR projector into the eye. I recall an article about testing at Apple where subjects complained about pain in the eyes.

The dark parts of an AR projection are always see through obviously, so a HDR quality video isn't going to exist in AR glasses.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

I've played a VR shooter on the weekends with my friends for years. I've had no issues with turning around. It's not as fast as using a mouse to turn around, but all my opponents have the same limitation, so that isn't an issue.

I should have been clear that I'm speaking as a game dev.

Your answer is simplified and incorrect. There is a reason why VR shooting games have teleporting or are on-rails. Developers can't have you turning around and around to play shooters otherwise you will lose your feet, fall over and sue a game studios for injury. No feet, no running around. Teleport isn't going away.

Whiplash is also another injury game studios can be sued for and needs to be avoided.

In some 3D shooters you can turn around with the game's joypad (not the headset - not recommended), but the recommended strategy in multiplayer shooters is to teleport away because by the time you turn around your enemy has got you. It's simply not as fast or responsive as mouse+keyboard gaming, as you admit.

Touch screens can't determine which finger is which, so it would have to be a dumbed down version.

The game you mentioned doesn't use individual fingers so I don't know where you are going.

Dual analog also doesn't have enough fidelity to recreate hand movements.

I feel you are going off the track here. I didn't say the game you mentioned didn't need to have a VR version.

VR controllers can control more axes of motion with more intuitiveness than any game controller.

I haven't said VR shouldn't exist so you're off the track and missed the point completely. I wasted my time.

 

[Jensend]

There is a reason why VR shooting games have teleporting or are on-rails. Developers can't have you turning around and around to play shooters otherwise you will lose your feet, fall over and sue a game studios for injury. No feet, no running around. Teleport isn't going away.

The VR shooter I play with my friends, Pavlov, has no teleport option and is not on-rails. It does have snap turn with the joystick, which I use, but that's partly because of the inconvenience of wired headsets.
You probably don't want a hyper-fast FPS in VR. But VR can do some things that I can't do with a mouse, such as dual wielding and pointing my weapons in different directions. A mouse can only point at one thing at a time.

The game you mentioned doesn't use individual fingers so I don't know where you are going.

My point is that in Beat Saber blocks are colored according to the hand you have to use to hit them. If I were swiping blocks with my fingers using a touch screen, that mechanic wouldn't work. You'd have to simplify or otherwise modify the core gameplay to adapt it to other control options.

I haven't said VR shouldn't exist so you're off the track and missed the point completely. I wasted my time.

You said "Playing games with a keyboard and mouse is faster and more precise than gaming in VR." (sorry, that was someone else, but you responded to my response)
That is sometimes true, for games were designed with a keyboard and mouse in mind.
Some games that were designed for VR are faster and more precise in VR than they would be if they were adapted to a kb/mouse setup.
The vast majority of games available today were designed around the abilities and limitations of kb/mouse or gamepads/joysticks, so people are more likely to notice the disadvantages of VR.

VR gaming is a superset of traditional videogaming. If a mouse and keyboard is better for a game, you could just play that game on a floating virtual screen, and maybe have a few VR extras in that virtual space.

I wouldn't claim that games that need VR will replace games that don't. I don't need the input fidelity of 3D tracked VR controllers for all the games I play. But VR controllers have a different set of tradeoffs than a kb/mouse, which has a different set of tradeoffs compared to a touchscreen.

 

[mejsric]

i time travelled back the day Apple to release a phone that will replace your desktop and without a keypad.
people speculate to much, what if this, what if that… bhal.. how? Why?

that time sounds familiar today.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

The VR shooter I play with my friends, Pavlov, has no teleport option and is not on-rails. It does have snap turn with the joystick, which I use, but that's partly because of the inconvenience of wired headsets.

Can you stop responding with a selfish perspective to a dev who worked in VR?

I made an obvious point that you are not the only type of person who will use VR. There are aged people, children, disabled people and others. VR has to be designed for EVERYONE not just risk taking 23 year old nerds.

Like cars, buildings and public transport, VR experiences (not just games) have to be designed with physical safety in mind because it involves much more of your body than just sitting in front of a TV/monitor.

With VR experiences designed with user safety in mind, there are natural limits to what is safely possible. So keyboard, gamepad and mouse gaming isn't going away anytime soon. It's always going to be the fastest and most accessible form of gaming.

That's the point I was making. There's no arguing against this for internet bonus points.

That's what prevents VR from breaking out of a niche. These fail videos might be labelled funny but some of them are millimetres from serious and permanent injury.

 

[_Spinn_]

Sounds like Apple's version of the Hololens. I've been able to play around with a Hololens and while it is cool tech, I have no practical need for anything like it in my life. I can see why some people might like or need such a device but I don't see this appealing to the masses any time soon.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

That's what prevents VR from breaking out of a niche. These fail videos might be labelled funny but some of them are millimetres from serious and permanent injury.

I don't see this appealing to the masses any time soon.

Does VR NEED need to break out of a niche or appeal to the masses, though? Looking at how many Macs sell per year, macOS is a niche and it’s fairly stable. In the past, they sold far fewer macOS systems a year and, still, it was enough to keep the business around. VR doesn’t have to be accessible to everyone for it to be a successful growing multi-million dollar market that billions all around the world will be born live and die without ever experiencing it.

 

[Jensend]

So keyboard, gamepad and mouse gaming isn't going away anytime soon.

I agree, as I've said in my responses. I don't think VR controls are going to completely replace mouse/kb and gamepads, or even halfway replace.

It's always going to be the fastest and most accessible form of gaming.

I know someone who gets nausea playing just about any first person game on a traditional screen but is perfectly comfortable with games like Beat Saber or games that use teleport movement.
I've put people in VR that can't find their way around traditional gamepad gaming, but were able to jump right into a VR game with almost no issues.
Sure, certain VR games won't be as accessible to people with certain physical limitations that could play a similar game with traditional controls.

That's what prevents VR from breaking out of a niche.

There are plenty of uses of VR that don't require wild movement. I don't expect many 70 year olds to be playing Overwatch/Apex Legends in VR with motion controls.
You're using a niche of VR use cases to argue against all of VR.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

Does VR NEED need to break out of a niche or appeal to the masses, though?

No, but we are seeing people like Zuckerberg promote it in an unrealistic light including the idea that you can stay in there for meetings all day and earning your living in there.

I'm a realist and not a marketeer so when I smell BS I'll call out BS and I'm far from alone. At most some extremely dedicated young streamer types will try to to spend a lot of time on VR but for the majority that's just not going to happen.

I do think AR has a chance to easily succeed though. The article at the start and other articles like it are incorrectly mixing VR and AR. Unless a company comes out with a device that can do both, but then who is going to walk down the street with a headset on?

I see VR staying niche but having better visuals and audio and AR eventually becoming miniaturised enough to be fitted on wearing glasses without being too noticeable. Wearables should completely blend in with our normal dress and fashion sense without looking ridiculous.

 

[Bodhitree]

The important thing is, though, that in order to get BORED with it, they had to BUY it first! Facebook and Sony HAS their money by that point! And, in both cases, the amount of money they received was enough to continue to iterate. And, that’s part of what I’m saying, neither Sony nor Facebook has taken over the world with VR, but, at the price they’re selling them for, they’re making enough to continue to invest in the idea.

It’s possible that, like High performance motor sports or miniature painting, VR/AR never becomes any more than a niche. But, that niche would matter to the millions of people having a great time doing it and would be profitable for the companies marketing to it.

The problem is content. In order to make a AAA game or complex experience you need to ship 1-2 million copies, so if there isn’t a marketplace of 10m devices out there to sell to, as a publisher you’re not going to take the risk of making custom content especially for it.

This is the same problem that you have with a new console or a device like Kinect. You can overcome it but you need to arrange a launch lineup and probably some pack-in titles in order to sell your device. You hope that one of these finds success and becomes a killer app.

 

[Jensend]

I'm a realist and not a marketeer so when I smell BS I'll call out BS and I'm far from alone. At most some extremely dedicated young streamer types will try to to spend a lot of time on VR but for the majority that's just not going to happen.

I think a lot of this just depends on comfort, including visual comfort. If they can make something that's as comfortable as wraparound sunglasses or a baseball cap, and the resolution and optical quality is high enough, I could see a lot of people replacing their monitor setups with a virtual setup.

I do think AR has a chance to easily succeed though. The article at the start and other articles like it are incorrectly mixing VR and AR. Unless a company comes out with a device that can do both, but then who is going to walk down the street with a headset on?

I'm assuming the Apple headset sill have some form of video passthrough, and maybe even 3D reconstruction of your real environment into your virtual environment, so you can see the environment outside the headset.
I'm less bullish on see-through VR like the Hololens, and it seems much more niche to me in the short to medium term, because it's harder to get visual quality equivalent to VR, especially in a form factor people would be willing to wear outside their homes or business.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

I think a lot of this just depends on comfort, including visual comfort. If they can make something that's as comfortable as wraparound sunglasses or a baseball cap, and the resolution and optical quality is high enough, I could see a lot of people replacing their monitor setups with a virtual setup.

I define 'a lot of people' as the niche I described and very few people beyond that.

Nobody will be 'replacing' monitors for a very very very long time, if ever, not even this niche. Just trying to have a sip of drink or a snack on your desk while using VR headset is a stupid thing to imagine let alone do.

 

[Bodhitree]

If the glasses also function as glasses, it may give them a boost. After all the watch functions as a watch, the iPhone as a phone.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

No, but we are seeing people like Zuckerberg promote it in an unrealistic light including the idea that you can stay in there for meetings all day and earning your living in there.

I think you’re right, in Zukerberg’s vision, Facebook in particular NEEDS it to be everywhere for them to be able to make the entire enterprise worth it when they’re selling the hardware at that price. I’m guessing that Apple would be focused on the “profitable few” and their price would be more sustainable.

I don’t think Meta failing at VR wouldn’t mean that VR as a whole would fail, it might even be a good thing for the market to be forced smaller.