Kuo: Apple Car to Use Hyundai's E-GMP Battery Electric Platform, General Motors Partnership Also Possible

[MadeTheSwitch]

Hyundai was said to have serious reservations about the prospect of becoming a contract manufacturer for another brand.

Yeah, I don’t know why anyone would want to help a new competitor get into the market. Someday they will go with someone else or make their own cars and you will have helped them rise to that point. Seems counterproductive.

 

[sirozha]

I'll probably never buy an "Apple car" because I take my cars to performance driving events, autocross, etc. I want a LOT of control in power and suspension, and to be able to disable junk like traction control if I want to, replace the seats, replace steering wheel, adjust the suspension for more camber. Apple will never develop an "electric Corvette or electric Miata". Maybe that's OK. Despite PSchiller and others owning a couple of fancy vehicles, Apple's MO for ALL products is "its sealed and you can't tinker too much".

Oh no. You will not be buying the Apple car. Financial ruin for Apple!

 

[sirozha]

Everyone on earth will know it's a Hyundai vehicle. Slapping an  logo on it won't change anything

I, on the other hand, can’t wait for Hyundai to release the IONIQ 5. I will be waiting with my finger ready to click the reserve button for the reservation system to go live.

Those who make the posts like yours don’t even begin to understand the quality of Kia and Hyundai cars. Kia has been named the highest quality car in the world by several publications 4 years in a row, which is the first ever for a non-luxury brand. Hyundai is a close second.

Kia Telluride has been selling at or above MSRP for over a year and Kia can’t make enough of them to keep them on the lots anywhere in North America. But go ahead and keep hating on Kia and Hyundai.

 

[sirozha]

The maps were of little use. They show that Many people live in cities. Not a surprise. It doesn’t show how people travel or use vehicles. If you want to suggest that cities (primarily larger ones) will have fewer people owning vehicles than they do today - I will admit that is possible. But that’s a far cry from your original suggestion. But even in cities in the US, people travel to rural areas and currently want their own vehicles. This is a fact. I don’t see this changing because subscription models will likely only be viable within a city or small, restricted area.

What you are suggesting is an Uber - type company, that doesn’t pay a driver (self driving), that allows people to not own a vehicle and still travel anywhere. The problem with that model is that you still need a physical location to park the vehicles and the risk of financially acquiring a fleet And then your fleet would be distributed across the state if not the country within a week if there weren’t travel limits. If there were travel limits, the oasis of not owning a vehicle dies right there. People don’t like limits. The only reason Uber works is because the drivers swallow the cost of purchasing, maintaining, and storing the vehicles. You lose ALL those benefits when they become self driving.

The “people won’t own cars“ logic is flawed. You know how we know that? People can rent cars, taxis, leases, etc right now. It hasn’t stopped ownership. It’s cheaper for the majority of the country - including the population. Even if it’s not cheaper, it’s clearly preferable. For those that live in a smaller bubble, that may work. I Have friends like that - but guess what, every time they want to go on a trip, see family, or take a vacation, they immediately call a friend who owns their own car.

I’m sorry if I come off harsh or overly argumentative. I’m just laying out my points. It’s a good discussion.

*The one and only way I see car ownership changing is if we get self driving cars that you can Uber-out while you sleep or are at work. This does NOT however do away with ownership. It actually still requires individual ownership so a company doesn’t have the high risks discussed before, but it also allows a larger portion of the population to not have a vehicle because they can essentially borrow it from the neighbor. The problem with this... inequality. If a richer class that has the money to buy a car can then rent that car out to folks that can’t afford one, I could see that further dividing the wealth in the country.

This will be a robotaxi service. You will plug in you destination before the car comes to your location. No one takes taxis between metro areas. This is not a service to drive you to your vacation spot. This is a service to drive you to the grocery store, to work, to the movies, to the doctor’s office, or to the airport.

I expect that in the near future, most families will own one vehicle and will use robotaxi services when several people need to be in different places at the same time. Because of pandemic, my family got rid of a second car last summer, and we are doing just fine with only one vehicle.

 

[sirozha]

I’m not talking about electric or self driving. I agree that will be a thing. But there will not be a time when it’s feasible for a company to drive cars 20-60 miles every day to a customer to give them a ride a few miles. Not to the point someone would pay for it. (and if a vehicle doesn’t have to travel that far to its customers, they have to purchase and maintain additional infrastructure and buildings with significant electrical charging stations.) It’s just not reasonable in all cases. There is practically no Uber access in much of the country for the same reason. Just not profitable - or not worth the rental or subscription cost. Certainly not cheaper than owning a vehicle. Or as convenient.


You assume it would be cheaper than buying a car. Perhaps that’s true for a new car, but I’ve owned almost a dozen vehicles - all used and while I’ve been lucky (and smart) about purchases - after selling them, the cost of owning them including the cost of maintenance is VERY low. And that doesn’t take into account the flexibility of not having to wait or request a vehicle.

it may work in your use case, but I assure you, that will not be a thing in the majority of this country.

60 miles to drive to you? You must live in a very sparsely populated area. The suburb I live in has 100,000 people living within a 10-mile radius. So, in your case, you will have to own a car.

 

[sirozha]

*Disclaimer, multi-year $TSLA shareholder.

As if it were not obvious!

Tesla has been losing money on their core business - making cars - until 2020. In 2020, it’s still not obvious if Tesla lost money or made very little money on their core business due to the way Tesla accounts for the sale of their regulatory carbon credits. But either way, Tesla made $1.58 billion from the sale of the regulatory carbon credits but showed only $721 billion in net profit (into which the proceeds from the regulatory credits contributed).

Yes, Tesla has been expanding their manufacturing facilities very fast and has been pouring billions of dollars into the expansion. Some of those expenses are paid from the proceeds from the sale of the regulatory carbon credits. Some of those expenses are paid from the newly raised capital based on the $800 billion market capitalization. Even if we excluded the expenses paid for building the new factories in China and Germany, and if we excluded the proceeds from the sale of regulatory carbon credits, the net profit margin for 2020 is minuscule: around 1% best case scenario. I’m not the one saying it. Musk said it on December 13, 2020.

TSLA stock price is a hype. 1/10 of the current Tesla market cap would be a very generous market cap for a company that in 2020 barely turned a net profit (if it actually did!) for the first time in its existence. The real value of TSLA is between $40 and $60 per share for the market cap between $40 and $60 billion.

For comparison, Kia made 2.5 million cars in 2020, with the net profit margin of about 4.5% while its market cap at the end of 2020 was about $21 billion. Tesla made 500,000 vehicles in 2020, had a profit margin of 1% (if that!), was named the worst quality vehicle by JD Power, and has a market cap of $830 billion.

So, Kia is 4.5 times as profitable as Tesla, makes 5 times as many vehicles as Tesla, has been named the best quality car manufacturer in the world by JD Power for several years in a row now, but has a market cap of barely 2.5% of Tesla’s market cap.

By the end of this year, Kia and Hyundai will be a force to recon with in the EV segment and will take the EV market share from Tesla in both Europe and North America. VW will also take market share from Tesla in 2021. Staring with 2022, Tesla will be bleeding its market share to a dozen EV manufacturers in the world. And then in 2024 Apple will come with its epic move and become the dominant force in the premium self-driving EV market.

2020 will be remembered as a tremendous wealth generator for Tesla shareholders. 2021 wil be remembered as the year of TSLA deflating to its real market value, which is about 7.5% of its current value.

 

[diamond.g]

As if it were not obvious!

Tesla has been losing money on their core business - making cars - until 2020. In 2020, it’s still not obvious if Tesla lost money or made very little money on their core business due to the way Tesla accounts for the sale of their regulatory carbon credits. But either way, Tesla made $1.58 billion from the sale of the regulatory carbon credits but showed only $721 billion in net profit (into which the proceeds from the regulatory credits contributed).

Yes, Tesla has been expanding their manufacturing facilities very fast and has been pouring billions of dollars into the expansion. Some of those expenses are paid from the proceeds from the sale of the regulatory carbon credits. Some of those expenses are paid from the newly raised capital based on the $800 billion market capitalization. Even if we excluded the expenses paid for building the new factories in China and Germany, and if we excluded the proceeds from the sale of regulatory carbon credits, the net profit margin for 2020 is minuscule: around 1% best case scenario. I’m not the one saying it. Musk said it on December 13, 2020.

TSLA stock price is a hype. 1/10 of the current Tesla market cap would be a very generous market cap for a company that in 2020 barely turned a net profit (if it actually did!) for the first time in its existence. The real value of TSLA is between $40 and $60 per share for the market cap between $40 and $60 billion.

For comparison, Kia made 2.5 million cars in 2020, with the net profit margin of about 4.5% while its market cap at the end of 2020 was about $21 billion. Tesla made 500,000 vehicles in 2020, had a profit margin of 1% (if that!), was named the worst quality vehicle by JD Power, and has a market cap of $830 billion.

So, Kia is 4.5 times as profitable as Tesla, makes 5 times as many vehicles as Tesla, has been named the best quality car manufacturer in the world by JD Power for several years in a row now, but has a market cap of barely 2.5% of Tesla’s market cap.

By the end of this year, Kia and Hyundai will be a force to recon with in the EV segment and will take the EV market share from Tesla in both Europe and North America. VW will also take market share from Tesla in 2021. Staring with 2022, Tesla will be bleeding its market share to a dozen EV manufacturers in the world. And then in 2024 Apple will come with its epic move and become the dominant force in the premium self-driving EV market.

2020 will be remembered as a tremendous wealth generator for Tesla shareholders. 2021 wil be remembered as the year of TSLA deflating to its real market value, which is about 7.5% of its current value.

This is an interesting prediction. Will be fun to revisit it later this year and next for accuracy.

 

[Yuck9]

Who is going to provide the charging stations ? Tesla I'm sure won't allow them onto the Tesla charging network.

The other guys (who ever they end up being) will not have the high power outlets to charge at the rate Apple will need for the clams they brag about.

 

[Rainshadow]

60 miles to drive to you? You must live in a very sparsely populated area. The suburb I live in has 100,000 people living within a 10-mile radius. So, in your case, you will have to own a car.

Yea, it’s not as sparsely populated as one may think. It’s Growing quick. There are grocery stores 25-30 miles away in multiple directions, but they are more expensive, small town grocery stores, not the bigger chain stores. Much cheaper to drive the hour plus for groceries every couple weeks. Almost 25% cheaper.

Again, good convo. Cheers 🍻

 

[sirozha]

Yea, it’s not as sparsely populated as one may think. It’s Growing quick. There are grocery stores 25-30 miles away in multiple directions, but they are more expensive, small town grocery stores, not the bigger chain stores. Much cheaper to drive the hour plus for groceries every couple weeks. Almost 25% cheaper.

Again, good convo. Cheers 🍻

25 mile drive to a small grocery. 1 hour drive to a large grocery?

I have a Whole Foods and a Publix within a 45 minute walk from my house (or 5 minute drive). There is a Tesla store and an Apple store within a 7-minute drive. There are 100+ restaurants within a 3-mile radius.

You live in a sparsely populated area, aka “in the middle of nowhere”. Robotaxis will probably never get to your area. You’ll have to own a car forever.

Cheers

 

[Nozuka]

Everyone on earth will know it's a Hyundai vehicle. Slapping an  logo on it won't change anything

Noone cares that the iPhone is being manufactured by Foxconn, or that the display comes from Samsung, etc.

Apple just needs to find a way to make it feel and look like an Apple product.

Audi has been doing this successfully for years.

 

[return2sendai]

totally untrue.

EVs are so efficient that, even if you charged your EV using 100%, the carbon output would be equivalent to a 50mpg hybrid car. In reality for most parts of the US and many other parts of the world, coal is a small part of the mix of energy sources and one that is shrinking each year. By moving power generation away from the vehicle to power plants, you can take advantage of newer greener tech as it becomes available. As the amount of power generated by solar and wind grows, that EV becomes more efficient from a carbon emission standpoint.

Not totally untrue. I would defo buy an Apple bicycle.

 

[netdoc66]

I'm sorry, but no. Tesla have terrible quality control and a high level of rejections and a complete disregard for standards. Apple have rather good quality control and they support modern standards.

If Apple emulated Tesla when making a car it would be disastrous.

Funny, Tesla has the highest safety ratings in the automotive space. Are you complaining about panel gaps and water getting into the tail lights? Stuff like that will be corrected as the process evolves. The rest of the numbers speak for themselves.