Kuo: Apple to Launch 'iPhone SE 2' in Early 2020 With Similar Design as iPhone 8, A13 Chip, and 3GB RAM

[dcpmark]

As mentioned by someone earlier, market research only takes you so far, though. As Henry Ford is alleged to have said, if he asked people what they wanted, they would have said "a faster horse." Or, as Wayne Gretzky said, you have to skate to where the puck will be. Apple has done this in the past. They killed their most popular iPod, the iPod mini, in order to deliver something no one was asking for, for instance.

But in those days of Apple Jobs was running the show, and actually believed he knew more about what the public wanted than the public did. And most of the time, he was right. But Apple is not the same company today.

No one loves their SE more than me, and I hope and pray we get a updated iPhone smaller than a 6/7/8 one day, but I think JPack is right on this one....us small phone lovers are a niche market these days, and Apple doesn’t seem to want to chase almost all niche markets (except for arguably the new Mac Pro).

 

[Baymowe335]

I disagree. There is nothing the SE has that the 6s or 7 do not have. If you purchase the SE, it is either because you want the smaller screen, or you have no choice and need the cheapest phone.

And not enough people want something the size of the SE, Or it would exist. I don’t doubt some people want it, but not enough want it and/or those people will buy another iPhone. Apple looks at this very closely and has far better information that us.

If it doesn’t exist, the answer must be because it doesn’t need to. It’s truly that simple.
[automerge]1570208232[/automerge]

Nonsense.

Pretty funny you’re essentially calling one of the best executing companies on the planet confused about what their customers want.

 

[JPack]

As mentioned by someone earlier, market research only takes you so far, though. As Henry Ford is alleged to have said, if he asked people what they wanted, they would have said "a faster horse." Or, as Wayne Gretzky said, you have to skate to where the puck will be. Apple has done this in the past. They killed their most popular iPod, the iPod mini, in order to deliver something no one was asking for, for instance.


EDIT: That is not to say that I don't believe there is a market for smaller phones. I absolutely do.

Henry Ford's product was revolutionary. A smaller iPhone is not, it's an iterative product.

Apple does not believe in a smaller iPhone. Market research suggests no one wants a smaller iPhone. What is Apple supposed to do? Force their engineers to design something the company doesn't believe in?

The iPod mini was replaced by the iPod nano, which was overwhelmingly successful.

 

[dcpmark]

Henry Ford's product was revolutionary. A smaller iPhone is not, it's an iterative product.

Apple does not believe in a smaller iPhone. Market research suggests no one wants a smaller iPhone. What is Apple supposed to do? Force their engineers to design something the company doesn't believe in?

The iPod mini was replaced by the iPod nano, which was overwhelmingly successful.

Whoa, not “no one”......this thread and others like are definitive proof of that, and if Apple’s market research doesn’t reflect that SOME would prefer an SE-sized phone, it needs to get new market research. But agreed that just not enough want one to make it worthwhile for Apple to make.

 

[pawxpaw]

Apple knows what their customers want, better than you do, period. That’s the point. Apple has unlimited data and people looking at what the market wants. By the way, Apple has been pretty damn good at figuring out what people will buy. Results speak loudly.

judging by the fact i'm a customer i'd disagree. i know what i want, and it isn't what apple currently sells.
judging by the 20 pages of this thread, and the hundreds more like it saying the same thing it appears they don't know what they want either.

also the fact that every time a new batch of SE phones hits the shelves they sell out in hours there's clearly a demand...
why do you think there are hundreds of tech pages posting articles about wishes for a new SE???


so take your period and stick it. like I said you're a rabid fan boy who has some axe to grind. you don't want a small phone, good for you. go read something else and stop pushing your opinions as facts and your tim cook worship as an aspirational model for us all.

and would those results be the results showing a decline in apple hardware sales?????

 

[tobefirst ⚽️]

But in those days of Apple Jobs was running the show, and actually believed he knew more about what the public wanted than the public did. And most of the time, he was right. But Apple is not the same company today.

No one loves their SE more than me, and I hope and pray we get a updated iPhone smaller than a 6/7/8 one day, but I think JPack is right on this one....us small phone lovers are a niche market these days, and Apple doesn’t seem to want to chase almost all niche markets (except for arguably the new Mac Pro).

I'm not arguing it isn't a niche market. I agree it is. I just think it might be big enough to be profitable.

Henry Ford's product was revolutionary. A smaller iPhone is not, it's an iterative product.

Apple does not believe in a smaller iPhone. Market research suggests no one wants a smaller iPhone. What is Apple supposed to do? Force their engineers to design something the company doesn't believe in?

The iPod mini was replaced by the iPod nano, which was overwhelmingly successful.

You're right...a smaller iPhone would be evolutionary, just like the overwhelmingly successful iPod nano.

Can you point me to some market research that shows no one wants a smaller phone?

 

[Wando64]

If it happens, people here will still find a way to complain.

One thing is sure. Some people here will certainly still find a way of misunderstanding why some others like the current SE.

Clue: it is not about the name.

 

[JPack]

You're right...a smaller iPhone would be evolutionary, just like the overwhelmingly successful iPod nano.

Can you point me to some market research that shows no one wants a smaller phone?

It comes down to the same argument, if enough people wanted a small smartphone, manufacturers would have continued making them.

Proponents of small phones seem to believe every smartphone manufacturer is disconnected from the demand side data. We have folding phones, bezel-less phones, pop-up camera phones, 6.9" phablets, etc. Do you think manufacturers somehow missed this "golden" opportunity of small phones? The iPhone SE was poorly adopted when it launched. It couldn't even match the adoption rate of iPhone 5s in 2016-2018 even though it was two generations newer. It's no surprise Apple isn't doing a followup of the same form factor.

 

[dcpmark]

It comes down to the same argument, if enough people wanted a small smartphone, manufacturers would have continued making them.

Proponents of small phones seem to believe every smartphone manufacturer is disconnected from the demand side data. We have folding phones, bezel-less phones, pop-up camera phones, 6.9" phablets, etc. Do you think manufacturers somehow missed this "golden" opportunity of small phones? The iPhone SE was poorly adopted when it launched. It couldn't even match the adoption rate of iPhone 5s in 2016-2018 even though it was two generations newer. It's no surprise Apple isn't doing a followup of the same form factor.


View attachment 866489

My only hope is backlash.....the SE came out just as Apple joined the arms race for larger phones, a race that began for them with the 6 and continues through today. IF they come out with a 5.4” flagship next year, that would indicate knowledge that some people have decided that phones have gotten too big. This in turn may result in deciding to produce other smaller phones, although I think the point will eventually become moot when we get folding/roll up screens. That will allow the phone to be smaller while expanding out for media consumption.

 

[tobefirst ⚽️]

It comes down to the same argument, if enough people wanted a small smartphone, manufacturers would have continued making them.

Proponents of small phones seem to believe every smartphone manufacturer is disconnected from the demand side data. We have folding phones, bezel-less phones, pop-up camera phones, 6.9" phablets, etc. Do you think manufacturers somehow missed this "golden" opportunity of small phones? The iPhone SE was poorly adopted when it launched. It couldn't even match the adoption rate of iPhone 5s in 2016-2018 even though it was two generations newer. It's no surprise Apple isn't doing a followup of the same form factor.


View attachment 866489

Thank you for sharing the table/chart. Does it show what the market wants, though, or what manufacturers are producing? I'm not sure.

I can't agree with the line of thinking that if it doesn't exist, it is because no one wants it, however. After all, a 5.5" iPhone didn't exist before it did. Obviously, the demand was pent up for a larger iPhone. And the existence of something doesn't mean that people want it, either.

I'm not surprised that the SE adoption rate was less than the 5s. When the 5s launched, it was the only premium iPhone, and it launched at a time when people expected and counted on iPhones launching. People's contracts were up and they had a choice between the 5s and the 5c. When the SE launched 2.5 years later, it was off-cycle and a bit unexpected. I know I had a launch day 6s at the time and was locked into a 2 year agreement. I absolutely would have chosen the similarly spec'd SE if it were available, or even known about, when it was time for me to upgrade from my favorite iPhone ever, the 5s.

Regardless, I believe we just disagree on the number of people who want a smaller phone. Thanks for sharing a polite discussion. Not everyone in here can do that. (;

 

[SteveW928]

If they leave the current SE form-factor, then it is a fail. It's that simple.

 

[manu chao]

I would not dare to hold it this way on a subway or an escalator.

I understand this on a moving platform (though trains outside of switches are normally fine) but escalators normally have a very smooth ride, it is just the moment when you step on and off that you are subject to external accelerations.

 

[JPack]

Thank you for sharing the table/chart. Does it show what the market wants, though, or what manufacturers are producing? I'm not sure.

I can't agree with the line of thinking that if it doesn't exist, it is because no one wants it, however. After all, a 5.5" iPhone didn't exist before it did. Obviously, the demand was pent up for a larger iPhone. And the existence of something doesn't mean that people want it, either.

I'm not surprised that the SE adoption rate was less than the 5s. When the 5s launched, it was the only premium iPhone, and it launched at a time when people expected and counted on iPhones launching. People's contracts were up and they had a choice between the 5s and the 5c. When the SE launched 2.5 years later, it was off-cycle and a bit unexpected. I know I had a launch day 6s at the time and was locked into a 2 year agreement. I absolutely would have chosen the similarly spec'd SE if it were available, or even known about, when it was time for me to upgrade from my favorite iPhone ever, the 5s.

Regardless, I believe we just disagree on the number of people who want a smaller phone. Thanks for sharing a polite discussion. Not everyone in here can do that. (;

To get any better survey information, we'd have to pay IHS or IDC five or six figures to view or conduct the survey.

For the 5.5" iPhone, competitors like Samsung had launched Note phablets as early as 2011. There was an obvious trend towards larger displays. However, at the time, Apple bet on smaller displays as the iPad was experiencing tremendous growth and they believed selling a companion device with an iPhone was better than selling a single big iPhone.

Personally, I suspect many small form factor users will better accept 4.7" after more experience with it.

 

[SteveW928]

For the 5.5" iPhone, competitors like Samsung had launched Note phablets as early as 2011. There was an obvious trend towards larger displays. However, at the time, Apple bet on smaller displays as the iPad was experiencing tremendous growth and they believed selling a companion device with an iPhone was better than selling a single big iPhone.

Personally, I suspect many small form factor users will better accept 4.7" after more experience with it.

There was certainly a trend towards larger phones, and I think a valid reason that many do want them. Screen-real-estate. If you're going to use a phone as a primary computing device, you're willing to give up size-practicality for the screen space.

BUT, I don't think we should forget the argument Apple originally made, which I think is valid. I have an iPad, and also computers at home/work when I need them. I primarily want my phone to be a phone that is also smart. The problem isn't that there are bigger phones, as they will always be the bigger sellers. The problem is that Apple took away the smaller phones and has never really run a proper series of smaller phones choices to get a feel for the actual demand.

I really don't think many of we form-factor people will like the bigger phones, or we'd have bought one a long time ago. Buying an SE was all about form-factor. If Apple had made an SE-sized 'regular' model, I'd have bought that, and paid as much as the bigger-screen siblings.

 

[dcpmark]

Personally, I suspect many small form factor users will better accept 4.7" after more experience with it.

I could not WAIT to dump my launch-day 6 for the SE, and as of now I won’t go back unless forced to. IF the 5.4” flagship is significantly smaller than the 6/7/8 with squared edges like the SE, I will definitely give it a look. But as someone who uses an iPhone only for calls, texts, CarPlay, and the occasional photo, and a cellular iPad Mini 5 and cellular AW for everything else, the SE is still perfect for me.

 

[Baymowe335]

One thing is sure. Some people here will certainly still find a way of misunderstanding why some others like the current SE.

Clue: it is not about the name.

Apple knows how many people own the SE, why they bought it, and has modeled if they will buy another or would buy something else.

You would be shocked how smart companies can be and how well they predict consumer behavior. Apple has mountains of information at their disposal and they are executing on it very well. They have demonstrated that.

A new SE might be in the works, but it hasn't existed recently because it hasn't needed to.

 

[Baymowe335]

judging by the fact i'm a customer i'd disagree. i know what i want, and it isn't what apple currently sells.
judging by the 20 pages of this thread, and the hundreds more like it saying the same thing it appears they don't know what they want either.

also the fact that every time a new batch of SE phones hits the shelves they sell out in hours there's clearly a demand...
why do you think there are hundreds of tech pages posting articles about wishes for a new SE???


so take your period and stick it. like I said you're a rabid fan boy who has some axe to grind. you don't want a small phone, good for you. go read something else and stop pushing your opinions as facts and your tim cook worship as an aspirational model for us all.

and would those results be the results showing a decline in apple hardware sales?????

Apple likely has over 1B customers. Of course nothing is going to make every single one 100% happy, but I can assure you the strategy is constantly vetted by hard data. So no, you personally don't matter. It's not about what you want. Some people want a phone twice as thick with a 2 day battery, but Apple isn't going to build something so stupid despite likely being able to sell several million.

A decline in iPhones sales has many, many components. Pointing to the lack of an SE as being a primary contributor would be silly. Apple itself likely predicted the decline in unit sales much earlier than it actually happening because they redefined the lineup with an even more premium iPhone X to collect higher ASP per unit and grow revenues despite a drop in hardware sales.

iPhone is massively popular and it would be silly to think they could continue selling units at the same pace forever. Apple is moving to wearables and services as growth businesses now that iPhone has plateaued. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The new iPhones are also flying off the shelves and have 3-4 week wait times online. The question isn't will someone buy an SE. The question is can Apple get them to buy a different, more expensive iPhone and still be happy with it.

As far as Tim Cook, his performance speaks for itself. He's created $700B in shareholder value and taken Apple to far greater heights than ever before. Those are facts.

 

[tobefirst ⚽️]

To get any better survey information, we'd have to pay IHS or IDC five or six figures to view or conduct the survey.

For the 5.5" iPhone, competitors like Samsung had launched Note phablets as early as 2011. There was an obvious trend towards larger displays. However, at the time, Apple bet on smaller displays as the iPad was experiencing tremendous growth and they believed selling a companion device with an iPhone was better than selling a single big iPhone.

Personally, I suspect many small form factor users will better accept 4.7" after more experience with it.

I would LOVE a 4.7"ish display in a body close to the size of the SE. As I hinted at, even the 6s I had felt too big, but that was Bezel City. In an iPhone X-esque 4.7" phone, I'd fall in love.

 

[pawxpaw]

Apple likely has over 1B customers. Of course nothing is going to make every single one 100% happy, but I can assure you the strategy is constantly vetted by hard data. So no, you personally don't matter. It's not about what you want. Some people want a phone twice as thick with a 2 day battery, but Apple isn't going to build something so stupid despite likely being able to sell several million.

A decline in iPhones sales has many, many components. Pointing to the lack of an SE as being a primary contributor would be silly. Apple itself likely predicted the decline in unit sales much earlier than it actually happening because they redefined the lineup with an even more premium iPhone X to collect higher ASP per unit and grow revenues despite a drop in hardware sales.

iPhone is massively popular and it would be silly to think they could continue selling units at the same pace forever. Apple is moving to wearables and services as growth businesses now that iPhone has plateaued. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The new iPhones are also flying off the shelves and have 3-4 week wait times online. The question isn't will someone buy an SE. The question is can Apple get them to buy a different, more expensive iPhone and still be happy with it.

As far as Tim Cook, his performance speaks for itself. He's created $700B in shareholder value and taken Apple to far greater heights than ever before. Those are facts.

nothing you say is anything more than your opinion. and once again if you don't want one, good for you, there are lots of people who do hence the numerous articles on the subject... why bother reading these posts?

perhaps they haven't released the new version yet as they are still able to sell the old SE, as was proven on their own store and in Costco stores in the last few months.

being a money making business doesn't prove anything. you essentially have no choice right now. you either have a google based phone or an apple phone. i refuse to buy google, so that leaves me with no choice. so its hardly an endorsement of the desire for apple phones, its just there are no alternatives.

apple used to have good innovative products. now its just rehashed crap with form over function being their only aim. the laptops today are worse than 10 year old ones in basically every measure other than internal speed. but again the consumer has no choice..

so it doesn't speak to apple making good products. it speaks to just one or two businesses having an oligopoly.

when a new SE comes out, as looks very likely to happen, will you come back and apologize?

 

[Baymowe335]

nothing you say is anything more than your opinion. and once again if you don't want one, good for you, there are lots of people who do hence the numerous articles on the subject... why bother reading these posts?

perhaps they haven't released the new version yet as they are still able to sell the old SE, as was proven on their own store and in Costco stores in the last few months.

being a money making business doesn't prove anything. you essentially have no choice right now. you either have a google based phone or an apple phone. i refuse to buy google, so that leaves me with no choice. so its hardly an endorsement of the desire for apple phones, its just there are no alternatives.

apple used to have good innovative products. now its just rehashed crap with form over function being their only aim. the laptops today are worse than 10 year old ones in basically every measure other than internal speed. but again the consumer has no choice..

so it doesn't speak to apple making good products. it speaks to just one or two businesses having an oligopoly.

when a new SE comes out, as looks very likely to happen, will you come back and apologize?

I'll live in reality and you can continue pointing to anecdotal evidence.

 

[pawxpaw]

I'll live in reality and you can continue pointing to anecdotal evidence.

all you've done is spout anecdotal evidence.

what did i say that isn't reality?

what alternatives do consumers have?

 

[SteveW928]

Apple knows how many people own the SE, why they bought it, and has modeled if they will buy another or would buy something else.

You would be shocked how smart companies can be and how well they predict consumer behavior. Apple has mountains of information at their disposal and they are executing on it very well. They have demonstrated that.

A new SE might be in the works, but it hasn't existed recently because it hasn't needed to.

I'm sure they have data... and they probably even think some of it is accurate.

They've walked back a number of product-lines and things over the last decade that they should have made those decisions based on data, too.

I think they do have data, but have been likely misinterpreting it. They keep conflating form-factor and cost, for one. Aside from a bit more or less material, what has screen size to do with cost? Yet, there seems to be some 'bigger is better' so it is the higher-end model thing going on.

You're probably right on the 'haven't needed it' aspect, though. We're all pretty trapped in Apple's eco-system at this point, so they can feed us just about anything, as the 'escape velocity' is quite high.

... Apple is moving to wearables and services as growth businesses now that iPhone has plateaued. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
...
He's created $700B in shareholder value and taken Apple to far greater heights than ever before. Those are facts.

I'd be worried if Apple's future success is tied to wearables and services. Those things are closely tied to the success of the rest of Apple, as they aren't much on their own. So, if things get too bad, and too many of us hit that 'escape velocity' mentioned above, the wearables and services go too.

Also, while Tim has done a great job of keeping things on the rails as the rapid growth happened, I think the thrust for that growth was a LONG time in the making, and it's also possible Tim has been wasting aspects of it (though things seem to be getting back on track for the Mac, etc. too). While it would take a LOT to knock Apple from being successful, I've thought that about other major brands in the past, too.

 

[IG88]

The 8 form factor is still too big for many of us who prefer the 5S/SE.

Apparently Apple doesn't care about you dozens of people anymore.

 

[SteveW928]

Apparently Apple doesn't care about you dozens of people anymore.

Haha... note that it hit nearly 10% of their phone sales, despite being gimp'd by Apple. Just a few more than a dozen.

 

[bklement]

I understand this on a moving platform (though trains outside of switches are normally fine) but escalators normally have a very smooth ride, it is just the moment when you step on and off that you are subject to external accelerations.

There are always people rushing to catch their train, sometimes they bump into people standing on the escalator.