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It was actually part of the GDPR as dictated by the EU and EU law, the government promised it would overhaul GDPR laws now we are out of the EU and get rid of the pop up boxes, but so far nothing.


Nothing was "dictated," we were part of the law making process, but let's not open that old can of worms again.

Anyway, the law still applies so quite naturally the pop ups are still there.

In any case, as annoying as they are, I think it shows that the GDPR is actually working. Companies need to ask for your permission to process your data And the fact that they are making it as annoying as possible shows how little interest the industry actually has in safeguarding your privacy.

I'm sure someone could have figured out a more convenient implementation that would be GDPR compliant. The alternative, sadly, really just seem to be to let tech do what they want and in this case I'd rather they get regulated by the EU.

The ones threatened really are companies whose business model depends on our data but, frankly, no one has a right to a specific business model. If you can't convince me that your services are worth my data, maybe your services aren't that great to begin with.
 
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Some of this makes sense. Some of it I'm not so sure about. Different virtual assistants? What a pain to implement and support that would be. Sideloading and forced USB-C - sign me up.

What does make me laugh is all the yanks getting upset about regulation :D
considering some smart speekers support multiple virtual asistants such as alexa or cortana with little to no hardware to run it. it's likely easy
 
then what about those that don't make that much?

I was just being facetious because of what the poster said to me originally. I don't think the developer fees just for wanting to publish an application should increase. I think they met a nice balance between making it accessible and making it deter low effort software submissions.

And it's still a choice to use Apple iOS/iPadOS or pick Android. These laws don't seem to help in this regard. I still have this choice with or without them.

Correct there's still choice with or without these laws.

Then this kind of proves the point of it being a waste of time and energy (and money) to even bother with.
If the end result for these dev's is an environment where they will not make more from leaving the store than simply paying the 30% cut. Why go through the process? Why do we need the laws to allow it? If it's already more or less proven on the dominant platform (Google Android) that side loading isn't popular, and that 3rd party stores are not popular enough to even make the the investment worth it. Let alone everything that goes with making it secure etc. Why are we bothering?

There are entire classes of app that Apple simply will not allow on the iPhone. And there are many private frameworks they have which their own software can use but that no other software is allowed to use (your app will get rejected if you try).

Let me give you an example. Perhaps you prefer Google Assistant instead of Siri. But you cannot choose to have that assistant on an iPhone in the same way you can on an Android phone. You cannot re-assign the side button or which digital assistant pops up when you say "Hey Siri". But through sideloading which would require certain parts of the operating system are made more accessible to developers we could remap buttons, swap which apps launch when words are said aloud and so forth.

Now you mentioned what I said about third party stores on Android and how it's hard to turn a profit on them. But that is just part of the leaked directive. It's also about allowing proper competition on the device (for instance with the Siri example above) and also monetary competition, meaning I don't have to use Apple's own payment systems, I can take on that burden myself so I don't have to pay Apple 30% of my revenue.

And to be honest I do think a 3rd party store on Apples devices would be successful especially if it's run by the developer community (similar to Cydia but more professional). As there is so much room to reduce prices. It literally costs 1.5% to 2.5% to process a bank card online. But Apple is charging 15% to 30% when you sell an app through them. A store that had a 4%, 5% or 7.5% cut would still be drastically cheaper than Apple and able to turn a huge profit.

Wouldn't you like apps you use even cheaper whilst the developer still gets paid more? etc I don't like giving Apple $300,000 out of every $1,000,000 I generate in revenue (not profit). They take more money from my company every year than sales taxes in any jurisdiction worldwide it's crazy, honestly crazy.
 
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Wouldn't you like apps you use even cheaper whilst the developer still gets paid more? etc I don't like giving Apple $300,000 out of every $1,000,000 I generate in revenue (not profit). They take more money from my company every year than sales taxes in any jurisdiction worldwide it's crazy, honestly crazy.
yes but this legislation will not promote more developer revenue and more affordable apps. It will promote scamware, copycat apps, a race to the bottom for developer revenue.
 
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What legal challenges? It is a law passed by a lawmaking body.

It would be for the European Court of Justice to review the regulation once it has come into force, but it's quite a different hurdle to overcome than, say, challenging the Commission on its interpretation of existing EU law.

I'm by no means an expert here, but I'd imagine the court would defer quite a bit to the political will of the council and the parliament unless it was blatantly outside of the EU's competencies set out in the treaties.
 
Phones are generally always on and always connected (network, cellular connections, bluetooth). Laptops and Desktops are generally connected to a local LAN (yes laptops have cellular connections too), but not "all" the time. And generally behind a firewall of some kind.

I don't see what this has to do with anything. I can put a 4G USB modem in my Laptop. My server is never disconnected from the internet. You can run an iPhone in WiFi only mode. The iPad which runs iPadOS (basically iOS) doesn't always have a Modem and connects via WiFi just like a Laptop and yet still has a walled garden etc

Phones have smaller batteries and historically had far less processing power compared to a desktop/laptop computer. You had to run a "lesser" OS vs a desktop as to not over utilize it's limited resources. We spent years maximizing our battery life on these devices so that it can last you as long as possible. Vs a full desktop that can draw as much power from an outlet as it needs. Or a laptop that has a larger battery, and can also draw from an outlet.

It runs almost the exact same OS that macOS does and always has done. They initially removed a lot of needless things to reduce its footprint (size on storage) and optimise it more for lower energy use and the fewer CPU cycles but that has largely changed as of 2022 because a lot of what they did for the iPhone has made its way back into improving macOS.

For instance sleeping browser tabs when not in focus, pausing the frame buffers of video players when they're not in view, adaptively adjusting the screen refresh rate to match the content. All these started on iOS and iPadOS and made their way back to the Mac as general improvements. Similarly things from the Mac (almost all of it) went to iOS.

iOS and it's devices were also designed with touch/multi-touch in mind. So the whole OS was made to maximize that type of user input. macOS was not, as it's designed with keyboard and mouse input. Yes, you can make it work with a touch screen. But, it's UI isn't well designed for it as it is for iOS/iPadOS.

This is just an interface thing, you could easily run the iPad interface on a Mac. All the other stuff is there, you can even run iPad/iPhone apps on a Mac today if you have an M1 equipped Mac.

Printing. You have AirPrint on iOS, so the printers drivers are not loading up space on your device.

macOS also has AirPrint and has since 2012. Remember these operating systems (macOS and iOS) are almost 1:1 under the hood. It's just the interface on top and some frameworks and API's that differ. Heck you can even run iOS apps on M1 equipped Macs, natively because under-the-hood it's the same thing.

Apple has limited iOS to what it needs to function "best". All desktop features are not also in iOS, as it's simply not needed. Would take up more storage space. Another thing these devices don't have as much of (space and size of the devices are smaller). Yes, they have 1TB of space on these things now, but that's "now". It was designed with the hardware of the time. Kind of like why we don't see a whole host of handheld devices running full Windows desktop OS. It would kill the battery, and require a more power hungry CPU/GPU/RAM/ and on and on. Yes, you could do it, but it would be like one of those handheld gaming devices.

You can literally get iPhones with 4x more storage than some Macs shipping today and the iPad Air and Pro now run the same SoC as their Macs (M1). This argument that these devices are fundamentally different is dead. They run the same kernel, the same base system, the same frameworks, the same API's and in some cases the same SoC. They differ in form factor but even that is debatable when you can get keyboards with trackpads for the iPads.

I also think the battery life thing is a bit of a stretch. Apple has really good power management not just on iPhone and iPad but on their Macs too. Being able to get over 12 hours on a laptop of active usage, not standby in a bag is actually incredible.

iOS limits the ways in which you can install software because allowing it via any and all means such as a desktop computer would increase the attack surface of the device/OS. Originally, iOS was not going to allow 3rd party apps. Yes that changed (clearly), but they compromised. Limit the way in which apps could be installed, and a means in which to secure those apps as made by as many trusted sources as possible. Something that is NOT possible to do on a desktop OS. It wasn't built in the same way, and we are all very used to it being more open. However, I don't enjoy all the pop-ups for security access on my macOS to allow this and accept that. This is practically non-existent on iOS. It's a trade off, and one that in many peoples view makes more sense to keep it that way because it's inherently more secure than to make it wide open like a desktop. Could we make them more similar? Sure. But at what cost? What's the trade off's? What are we truly gaining by allowing this? And more importantly it will not happen overnight.

I believe the trade offs are worth it, thus I want the ability. If you do not want it, then you don't have to install software outside of Apples app store.

How would you provide at least the same level of security as we have on iOS today. While also allowing a 3rd party store and side loading apps? Just by allowing that to be possible increases your attack surface, as these are more ways into a device than it currently has. The company for which I work for only allows internet access via 1 location. Basically one way into and out of our organization. Everything gets monitored from that point. Smaller attack surface, and easier to see all the traffic going in and out. Vs it being from each location, and having to monitor each location independently. If something happens, one place to shut down the traffic. As you simply can't evade it.

I would use the same system they have on macOS. Firstly the operating system is partitioned away from user data and is read-only. The Kernel will not allow writes to that area, period. Secondly all software would still need to be digitally signed with a developer certificate from Apple (which is how it's done on macOS) and thirdly Apple operates a revocation system so that bad software by bad developers can be disabled by voiding their certs.

It works great on macOS. And for users who don't want to get into that can of worms they can choose to never allow third party stores or sideloading apps. It would be a choice left to the user.

I think your argument that allowing more apps somehow increases attack surface is very flawed as you can already install third party software on these devices through the App Store. The origin of the software doesn't change the fact I can install a nefarious or broken app from Apples store directly. Apple has had issues with privacy invasive software on the App Store and has had to revoke developer certificates in the past for apps they themselves vetted as safe and allowed onto the store.

Same for application deployment. Users are not allowed to install whatever they want. It's a security risk, not just because they could install something even if they needed it. But, so could a bad actor. Visit a bad website, and boom your done. Open a bad email, and boom your done. This is much harder to do on an iOS device. Where clicking a link is even easer than deleting it first.

You can literally visit a website on almost every version of iOS and have the entire phone rooted because of browser engine flaws, flaws in the very browser engine that Apple forces all developers on iOS to use.

Heck you could even send a text message to an iPhone as recently as last year and root the entire device and because you cannot install any kind of diagnostic software on the phone yourself to determine if it has been compromised or not you simply have to guess. This was how Jeff Bezos was hacked by the leadership of Saudi Arabia (Mohammed bin Salman) who tried to then blackmail him with photographs he stole from his iPhone remotely.

There have also been tetherable exploits where plugging the phone into a computer via Lightning lets you exploit weaknesses in its computer handshake to root the devices or even brute force the pass key in minutes.

These devices are sadly not that secure as Apple likes to make them out to be, which I'm saddened by considering the amount of control they exert over them.

This does lead it to being a one size fits all approach which doesn't work for everyone. But, it's the approach Apple wanted as was free to try. They could have failed in this approach very easily.

Apple did this approach for monetary reasons and that's pretty much it.
 
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You are just arguing for arguing sake. Yes, if you drive or go somewhere you should take your phone with you. That is the point of a cell phone. My gosh people. Saying computers are the same as cell phones are just ridiculous.

I carry my phone when I go out to events/movies/stores/etc. I do not bring my 50 pound computer or even a laptop to these things.

And in an emergency, it is much faster to dial 911 on a phone than the following:
Start computer
hook up headset
log in
start Skype
dial 911

And you know Windows is filled with Malware so what if my computer is down? What then? THIS is why a true "CELL PHONE" needs to have more security.

Technically we both are. You keep expanding the “requirements” to your claim. I keep making Swiss cheese (yum).
Actually, today if I fell and hurt myself, sans pc or phone, at home, I call out to GA via Nest and have it contact someone who can then contact emergency services.
 
yes but this legislation will not promote more developer revenue and more affordable apps. It will promote scamware, copycat apps, a race to the bottom for developer revenue.

That race to the bottom already happened. Why do you think so many apps on the store are now subscriptions? even for basic things like note taking, calculators and calendars?

That 15-30% has to come from somewhere, you cannot support an app indefinitely with these kinds of fees. It also breeds apps that have to generate revenue elsewhere, usually by the shotgun approach of putting out lots of low quality apps/games with ads that are listed for free or by selling user data and profiting off your buying habits.

It's like a city that pays their cops nothing and then wonders why so many of them turn to organised crime and bribery. The stores low quality is in part due to Apples high fees.
 
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This will be a very important law which will shape the future of the tech industry.

(I nearly threw up when I wrote this but this is how I avoid the reply being ‘political’.)
 
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Lets assume an individual can choose to only download apps from the official Apple App Store still. Let's assume there will be a toggle they can flick on their kids phones that means their kids are also limited to the official Apple App Store. In those circumstances, how is your security harmed?
 
I think you forgot that some companies are even better at that.
When you say “companies” are you including the cartels? Even companies that most people would consider unsavory like Facebook aren’t taking people out… At least not that anyone is aware of ?
 
Now you mentioned what I said about third party stores on Android and how it's hard to turn a profit on them. But that is just part of the leaked directive. It's also about allowing proper competition on the device (for instance with the Siri example above) and also monetary competition, meaning I don't have to use Apple's own payment systems, I can take on that burden myself so I don't have to pay Apple 30% of my revenue.
The vast majority of developers only pay 15% and this covers cost for hosting the Apps, checking Apps for approval, developing updating APIs, Xcode, store fronts and dozens of other pieces that make the developers and customer experience what it is. This is cheaper than others in the Apps store industry such as PS store, Xbox and Microsoft store and Nintendo Store. I am sure they would like it cheaper, but doing it all yourself and getting the same number of sales is impossible. Even bricks and mortar stores are far more expensive to run.
 
Apple shouldn't pull out of the EU forever, but they should announce that they will be suspending all sales while they come into compliance with EU regulations. That will take the better part of a year or more. Then they should release specific SKUs just for the EU market, with Messaging, FaceTime, and pretty much all the services removed. Basically, you get a blank brick that makes calls, everything else must be installed elsewhere.

And of course, Apple should jack up prices by a lot to cover the cost of complying with all of this nonsense.
Fortunately, Apple isn’t dumb enough to do this…,
 
The vast majority of developers only pay 15% and this covers cost for hosting the Apps, checking Apps for approval, developing updating APIs, Xcode, store fronts and dozens of other pieces that make the developers and customer experience what it is. This is cheaper than others in the Apps store industry such as PS store, Xbox and Microsoft store and Nintendo Store. I am sure they would like it cheaper, but doing it all yourself and getting the same number of sales is impossible. Even bricks and mortar stores are far more expensive to run.

We had the API's and Xcode before the iPhone even existed. Why do all of you ignore the existence of macOS?

It's like you guys are purposefully putting your hands up to your eyes to ignore decades of products before the existence of the iPhone. Even today I can install Xcode for free and develop macOS software that targets API's on Macs and release said software for free on my own website.

Apple makes 60% margins on Macs and iPhones from the consumers who purchase them. That is where these things are fueled. Apple did not make hundreds of billions of dollars from charging developers a store listing fee of 15 to 30%. They made that money selling the physical devices to consumers.

And let me remind you, it is our software the third party apps that people love that make them get these smartphones in the first place. Without the apps they are just dumb phones with highly limited pre-bundled software.
 
Maybe the world should look into side-loading a European government that stuck to important things like physical safety and security and didn’t meddle in engineering technology products they barely know how to use and understand even less.
 
I’m pretty sure Xi Jinping approves of this message
I would say he rather approves what his buddy Tim Crook is doing.
Flip your iPhone and read “not made the USA”

Yeah, yeah, i was thinking Americans were diehard patriots… make ?? great again, etc…
Sure, Tim is right here to help the American economy grow ??

 
It would be for the European Court of Justice to review the regulation once it has come into force, but it's quite a different hurdle to overcome than, say, challenging the Commission on its interpretation of existing EU law.

I'm by no means an expert here, but I'd imagine the court would defer quite a bit to the political will of the council and the parliament unless it was blatantly outside of the EU's competencies set out in the treaties.
As far as my reading the various articles regarding the EU DMA regulation, once passed, the law cannot be challenged in the sense that it cannot be reversed or stopped.
 
Apple is right and this will unleash a scourge of malware to iOS. I will like the situation personally, as it will be easier to install whichever apps I want. But the general public is in for a lot of scamware-induced pain if this passes.

Steve Troughton-Smith was right - Apple might have avoided the worst case scenario by having at least a partially vetted system for allowing third party services. Now they are forced to implement the worst case.
 
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