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well do you want apple or the developers to pocket the difference? I would rather developers takes it, then apple just putting it on a pile giving me no extra value in return.

Considering this is played as "in the consumer's interest" unless more money goes in the consumer's pocket it isn't in their interest.

To see what is likely to happen, look at how many small developers cut their prices when Apple halved their fee.

and if apple wants to increse the price of things, then they are free do do so, and

Every store "increse (sic) the price of things" because that's how they make money. People forget, in the early days, a developer was lucky to get 30% and had to cover upfront the costs of development, packaging, marketting, etc. before a single penny came in. App stores changed that and give developers a much easier route to market.

My fear is the proposed changes will impact smaller developers who will face new costs to get their product too market, and not just have to support the development costs while Apple provides the store front access to a huge market for a small developer fee.

In addition, sideloading is likely to see an upsurge in piracy, hurting smaller developers as well as users when varou DRM schemes get tried.

It's like when everyone screamed for cord cutting to free themselves from high cable prices by being able to buy a la carte and now are finding that can be as expensive as cable or even more expensive.

Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

we will see if iOS App Store ends up as abandoned as the Mac App Store eith barebone apps only available because the store is too Draconian

Considering any rival App Store is unlikely to have the user base that Apple's will, they may cahrge less but the return or developers is likely to mean they will also stick with Apple.

„lock competition out, lock users in“ business model is against what the EU wants to see from its market participants. The EU also waited 10 years for the industry to find a common standard for charging, but Apple blocked.

While it may result in a common charging plug, that doesn't mean there will be a common charging standard, since USB-C allows for proprietary protocols as well checking for deice connectivity. Apple, could they want to, could create a USB-C charger that I Apple unique, except for perhaps a common 5V output; meaning a non-Apple cable would stll not work with the iPhone beyond a minimum charging capability and vice versa.
 
Apple doesn't own the rights to my phone. and if you didn't know, a lot of android phones also don't allow side loading.
No they, just made the thing!
and you bought it because of what it did right?
And if you want it to do something different, how about you buy something different?

Its like buying food with sugar in it and demanding they remove the sugar. Buy something else!!
 
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The EU is doing literally the opposite. Instead of competing smartphone platforms with different tradeoffs it’s trying to make a one size fits all approach. If the EU had its way, all cars would have to be the same. All computers the same. All everything. It’s massive, unnecessary government overreach. Literally everything that the EU wants to require Apple to do customers can get on their own TODAY by buying an Android phone. NOTHING is stopping you OR them from doing it. NOTHING.
How does me buying an Android force Apple to compete in the distribution of iOS apps? It doesn’t, so your solution doesn’t solve the problem.
 
The EU is doing literally the opposite. Instead of competing smartphone platforms with different tradeoffs it’s trying to make a one size fits all approach. If the EU had its way, all cars would have to be the same. All computers the same. All everything. It’s massive, unnecessary government overreach. Literally everything that the EU wants to require Apple to do customers can get on their own TODAY by buying an Android phone. NOTHING is stopping you OR them from doing it. NOTHING.
Keep cool, have a good breath, no one is forcing anyone to sell in the EU. To sell in China, Apple must forget all its ethical principles to favor the king $, allowing authorities to track citizens against all Apple principles. It doesn't seem to cause any moral issue to you, but when a market wants to favor competition and protect customers, all of a sudden you are there to criticize, Lol...
 
If I took a poll of 10 of my closest relatives who have iphones, I'd be the only one who knew what sideloading is and how to do it if enacted, and I'm against it.

This idea is even less popular than the iphone mini.
Well, the idea is very slowly but steadily getting ground internationally, and Apple has to spend more and more money to defend itself against it, so there have to be more people who like it then hate it.
 
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Ok, but some people want a OS that actively doesn’t allow it. And 30% of the market is (at least) fine enough with that. You could say they buy the iPhone for other reasons, and I could say something else. Thankfully, we have a great way to discover it: the market, which acts as trial and error at large scale. If it was so relevant, Apple would have allowed sideloading. As they had to go with bigger screens, or include ports again on the MBP, etc.
This is good. Now you would know if the market really does or does not want it. Otherwise, how would one know if people do not want sideloading if Apple never allowed it? If, even after allowing sideloading, if no one uses it, then you can say with confidence that nobody wants sideloading. I am glad EU is giving Apple the option to prove it. You must be happy to be proved right.
 
Yes... I remember the Microsoft case back then.

But I asked if the EU can force Microsoft to fix the disastrous taskbar in Windows 11. It sucks. It affects the consumer.

And the EU is all about helping the consumer, right?

Hell... if the EU is soooo concerned with the way Apple handles the App Store, Messages, FaceTime, third-party browsers, and Siri....

...all I'm asking is for the EU to make Microsoft fix the Windows 11 taskbar to work like it did in Windows 10.

Since the EU so into fixing things...
When you find out please let me know so I can get Apple to put back cover flow.
 
This is good. Now you would know if the market really does or does not want it. Otherwise, how would one know if people do not want sideloading if Apple never allowed it? If, even after allowing sideloading, if no one uses it, then you can say with confidence that nobody wants sideloading. I am glad EU is giving Apple the option to prove it. You must be happy to be proved right.

Sure, just make it off by default so a user has to actively chose to allow it, as well as access to Apple's databases for contacts etc. That way, I can lock down my user's phones to prevent ecurity issues while they have teh freedom to do whatever they want with theirs.

Real choice and security.

Fun fact; fines that are levelled by the EU against private companies (like those paid by Microsoft and Google for supposed antritrust violations) go directly back into the EU budget, not to the parties who were 'harmed'.

Of course, you silly boy. How else can we pay for the great benefits, salaries, and retirements of our EU bureaucrats and ministers? Do you want them to be forced to live like a commoner that they have spent a lifetime protecting?

I’ve just read the new DSA plan for social media and I thank the gods for EU to exist since US is doing nothing to stop this insanity dividing our society.

The problem is:

Who gets to ultimately decide what is allowable? What law applies? The EU certainly can restrict what is allowable, but only for companies operating within the EU. If they are outside of the EU then it is an EU citizen's choice to access that website which must play by that country's rules. A company whose servers are in say the US or Russia would not be subject to EU law, even if the originating user's IP address is in the EU.

Otherwise, the lowest common denominator applies. An EU website could run afoul of Texas law against restricting content and be dragged to court, or an EU citizen could be sued in Texas for facilitating an abortion if they help someone in Texas on how to obtain one. Extraterritoriality sounds good until it's somoene else's law that applies.
 
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Considering this is played as "in the consumer's interest" unless more money goes in the consumer's pocket it isn't in their interest.

To see what is likely to happen, look at how many small developers cut their prices when Apple halved their fee.

Every store "increse (sic) the price of things" because that's how they make money. People forget, in the early days, a developer was lucky to get 30% and had to cover upfront the costs of development, packaging, marketting, etc. before a single penny came in. App stores changed that and give developers a much easier route to market.
If we must choose between apple's pockets or developers pockets, then developers are directly more in consumers interests compared to apple's pockets. Bigger margins they= better applications they can develop. why not just allow both is the biggest question. if apple's deal is better than nothing will change.
My fear is the proposed changes will impact smaller developers who will face new costs to get their product too market, and not just have to support the development costs while Apple provides the store front access to a huge market for a small developer fee.

In addition, sideloading is likely to see an upsurge in piracy, hurting smaller developers as well as users when varou DRM schemes get tried.
first of, in what way will developers likely pay more for anything? The only one who can increase the costs are apple and that is by increasing the developer costs to 99$> or mor per year. this law allows developers to literaly to use a notepad to develop an iOS program if they want on a windows computer. they can use any store in tangent with the iOS appstore. Epic store or eve na future steam store could be launched for iOS without needing apple as the middleman. or allow the app to be listed on their website.

Or they chose to only have it on iOS App Store if they want. Apple just gets forbidden to be the only legal source for applications and to force their revenue cut or payment option.

secondly, piracy will have close to zero impact. You can currently install apps for free on iOS without any jail breaking.
It's like when everyone screamed for cord cutting to free themselves from high cable prices by being able to buy a la carte and now are finding that can be as expensive as cable or even more expensive.

Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.
To be fair, i don't know what you're referring to
Considering any rival App Store is unlikely to have the user base that Apple's will, they may cahrge less but the return or developers is likely to mean they will also stick with Apple.
no need as you can still exist on multiple stores at the same time, and steam or epic can very easily come to replace iOS App Store as the sole game source. With this, Steam/Epic can list mac M1 games and iPhone/iPad games on one platform with cross compatible ownership.

My steam game (black ops or Bioshock) that exist on both windows and mac only needs one purchase to be played on windows and mac/Linux computers, and now that can turn in to a single iOS/Mac/windows/Android "license" purchase now that steam can develop an iOS store.

I think steam have about 10 times more Mac games than the Mac App Store have. It can turn quickly if apple can't compete. a lot of games and programs don't exist on the Mac App Store because they aren't allowed to exist because of the rules.
While it may result in a common charging plug, that doesn't mean there will be a common charging standard, since USB-C allows for proprietary protocols as well checking for deice connectivity. Apple, could they want to, could create a USB-C charger that I Apple unique, except for perhaps a common 5V output; meaning a non-Apple cable would stll not work with the iPhone beyond a minimum charging capability and vice versa.
they cant, it's already stated that USB PD protocol must be supported next to a proprietary solution and the y

USB Type-C is a technology that is already common to many categories or classes of radio
equipment as it provides high-quality charging and data transfer. The USB Type-C charging
receptacle, when combined with the USB Power Delivery charging communication
protocol, is capable of providing up to 100W of power and therefore leaves ample room for
further development of fast charging solutions, while allowing the market to cater for low-
end phones that do not need fast charging. Mobile phones and similar radio equipment that
support fast charging can incorporate the USB Power Delivery features as described in
standard EN IEC 62680-1-2:2021

quite literaly here you have the link to all questions and loop holes you can think of

Questions & Answers on the Commission's proposal on a common charging solution for electronic devices

Factsheet on the Commission's proposal on a common charging solution for electronic devices
 
As time goes on, my desire to keep garbage you install on your devices from screwing up my devices grows ever stronger. So I say, "@#$% the EU." Let the EU build their own devices. Oh wait, they tried that and got walloped by American companies. So I guess they have a snowball's chance in hell of capturing the EU market, much less a foothold in the planetary market. Maybe they can buy iPhoneskys from the Russians.
Please explain how someone installing something on their phone has an impact on your phone? It doesn’t….
 
Because these boxes came in because of the GDPR. Part 2 of the DPA is the GDPR so I'm not sure why "legally" anything would have changed.

It was actually part of the GDPR as dictated by the EU and EU law, the government promised it would overhaul GDPR laws now we are out of the EU and get rid of the pop up boxes, but so far nothing.

 
i actually agree with most of this, but i am concerned about side loading and the rise of android like junk apps that threaten privacy and pull the platform down. i have had experience with 3rd party subscriptions and they usually involve a huge run around if you want to cancel. apple has the no bs cancel functionality free of marketing teams trying to trivk users into paying.
 
Keep cool, have a good breath, no one is forcing anyone to sell in the EU. To sell in China, Apple must forget all its ethical principles to favor the king $, allowing authorities to track citizens against all Apple principles. It doesn't seem to cause any moral issue to you, but when a market wants to favor competition and protect customers, all of a sudden you are there to criticize, Lol...

What in the world does China have to do with the EU?
This doesn’t protect customers, it takes away their choice between two different options and only gives them one.
It forces people like me who PREFER Apples approach to lose that because people like YOU are too lazy to just buy an Android device which does everything you want to force Apple to do.
It removes competition and forces Apple to compromise security and privacy.
Get over yourself with this customer BS.
 
Apple should just make 2 identical versions of iOS. One that is fully unlocked and you can install anything from anywhere. And one that is locked down and protects the user. In features it should be the same, but the users with a locked down iOS should get a warning when communicating with some one with the "open" iOS.
 
Please explain the difference and I will in detail tell you how each point you make is incorrect.
Phones are generally always on and always connected (network, cellular connections, bluetooth). Laptops and Desktops are generally connected to a local LAN (yes laptops have cellular connections too), but not "all" the time. And generally behind a firewall of some kind.

Phones have smaller batteries and historically had far less processing power compared to a desktop/laptop computer. You had to run a "lesser" OS vs a desktop as to not over utilize it's limited resources. We spent years maximizing our battery life on these devices so that it can last you as long as possible. Vs a full desktop that can draw as much power from an outlet as it needs. Or a laptop that has a larger battery, and can also draw from an outlet.

iOS and it's devices were also designed with touch/multi-touch in mind. So the whole OS was made to maximize that type of user input. macOS was not, as it's designed with keyboard and mouse input. Yes, you can make it work with a touch screen. But, it's UI isn't well designed for it as it is for iOS/iPadOS.

Printing. You have AirPrint on iOS, so the printers drivers are not loading up space on your device.

Apple has limited iOS to what it needs to function "best". All desktop features are not also in iOS, as it's simply not needed. Would take up more storage space. Another thing these devices don't have as much of (space and size of the devices are smaller). Yes, they have 1TB of space on these things now, but that's "now". It was designed with the hardware of the time. Kind of like why we don't see a whole host of handheld devices running full Windows desktop OS. It would kill the battery, and require a more power hungry CPU/GPU/RAM/ and on and on. Yes, you could do it, but it would be like one of those handheld gaming devices.

iOS limits the ways in which you can install software because allowing it via any and all means such as a desktop computer would increase the attack surface of the device/OS. Originally, iOS was not going to allow 3rd party apps. Yes that changed (clearly), but they compromised. Limit the way in which apps could be installed, and a means in which to secure those apps as made by as many trusted sources as possible. Something that is NOT possible to do on a desktop OS. It wasn't built in the same way, and we are all very used to it being more open. However, I don't enjoy all the pop-ups for security access on my macOS to allow this and accept that. This is practically non-existent on iOS. It's a trade off, and one that in many peoples view makes more sense to keep it that way because it's inherently more secure than to make it wide open like a desktop. Could we make them more similar? Sure. But at what cost? What's the trade off's? What are we truly gaining by allowing this? And more importantly it will not happen overnight.

How would you provide at least the same level of security as we have on iOS today. While also allowing a 3rd party store and side loading apps? Just by allowing that to be possible increases your attack surface, as these are more ways into a device than it currently has. The company for which I work for only allows internet access via 1 location. Basically one way into and out of our organization. Everything gets monitored from that point. Smaller attack surface, and easier to see all the traffic going in and out. Vs it being from each location, and having to monitor each location independently. If something happens, one place to shut down the traffic. As you simply can't evade it.

Same for application deployment. Users are not allowed to install whatever they want. It's a security risk, not just because they could install something even if they needed it. But, so could a bad actor. Visit a bad website, and boom your done. Open a bad email, and boom your done. This is much harder to do on an iOS device. Where clicking a link is even easer than deleting it first.

This does lead it to being a one size fits all approach which doesn't work for everyone. But, it's the approach Apple wanted as was free to try. They could have failed in this approach very easily.
 
If other methods of app distribution exist, Apple can own the iOS App Store all they want and set whatever terms they want. Apple can then actually compete with others and if their offering is superior, devs and customers will flock to it regardless of the existence of other offerings.
Owning the App Store means they own the App Store and as long as they are following the current framework of laws there should not be a problem. In the US it will be interesting to see where the epic vs apple appeal goes because it will show if apple is found to be anti-competitive.

Apple should not have to open up their IP. And like death and taxes I have no control over either, I believe the EU is creating a tech hostile environment, that will plague them forever more.
 
Then Apple and its Big Tech peers should have self-regulated so it never got to this point. It’s not like the specter of antitrust legislation snuck up on them.
They were doing fine until they started to make too much.
Of course, Tim Cook himself was quite the proponent of self-regulation until it became clear that Apple was going to be a target of antitrust legislation as well. Now, they’re making out like bandits while they can, just like the rest of ‘em.
They followed the laws. When they don't follow the laws they get punished for it (fined or whatever).
These "new" laws will limit their ability to be the same business they had been. They are fully capable to try and defend what was working fine before. And to point out what is wrong with this legislation. Since it will cost them to make the changes these new laws require. They may not want to make those changes and rather just walk away from the EU. Sell desktop/laptops and watches. AirPods and other accessories not running iOS or iPadOS. As if they just removed both of those devices, it would save them all this hassle. Yes, it's a loss of revenue to them, and not a small amount either. But, maybe they say why chase after bad? Maybe they offer these devices with a different version of the iOS/iPadOS? One that will allow for such side loading and 3rd party app stores. While also offering those that don't want that and option at setup to pick which they want?

Any and all possible options.
 
That would be less than 1% of what they get from me with their 30% cut already. Probably better make it a million.
then what about those that don't make that much?
I understood that is what he meant. All I'm saying is it's still his choice if he chooses to follow that app to where it goes. We use the word need liberally here, we all need a banking app or we all need a word processor. But the reality is we don't actually need those to continue living they are just very good at making us time efficient. It's still a choice whether to use those apps we perceive that we need or not.
And it's still a choice to use Apple iOS/iPadOS or pick Android. These laws don't seem to help in this regard. I still have this choice with or without them.
I am in full agreement that certain apps and maybe even certain categories of app will leave the apple App store forever but they will come roaring back if people choose not to install third party stores. As we've seen on Android it is extremely difficult to be a profitable paid app on a third party store and that is a device that allows sideloading and third party store fronts.
Then this kind of proves the point of it being a waste of time and energy (and money) to even bother with.
If the end result for these dev's is an environment where they will not make more from leaving the store than simply paying the 30% cut. Why go through the process? Why do we need the laws to allow it? If it's already more or less proven on the dominant platform (Google Android) that side loading isn't popular, and that 3rd party stores are not popular enough to even make the the investment worth it. Let alone everything that goes with making it secure etc. Why are we bothering?
 
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iPhones are exactly the same as any computer. what's the difference between an iPad Pro running iOS and a MacBook Air running MacOS? outside of one allowing you to install any application you want, and the other doesn't?
My iPads, Laptops, and desktops ALL do not have cellular network connectivity. Like I said, dragging a 50 pound desktop, monitor, keyboard, mouse, battery with me in my car is equivalent to a cell phone?!
 
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You posted a list of alternative app stores on Android.

But I already know they exist.

What I'm saying is... out of the 3 billion people who use Android phones... where to they download the majority of Android apps from?

Answer: Google Play

But you're right. Android has alternative app stores... so maybe Apple should too.

Like I said... it'll be interesting to see the results. I don't have any skin in this game.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

As an Android and iOS/iPadOS user … I visit half of that alternate Android list. You are right, I get most of my Android apps from the Play Store. Two major exceptions, closer to three:

1: Apps that for whatever reason Google does not allow
2: Apps that have been recommended and after reviewing them I find it is something I would like to try
3: In an existing app (like Kindle) and I can use links to alternate purchase sites instead of having to exit, go to the browser, etc…

When you look at it, these alternate stores get a chunk of business. Having options is a great. When (if) this comes to Apple-land, I suspect we will see the same thing if the end Apple design is similar.
 
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You are quibbling.
Most do not carry a phone around with them 24/7.
Most do not carry a laptop around with them 24/7.

Both devices can make calls.
Both can call emergency.

I could go on and on. At the same time you can come up with items that differentiate. Or don’t
End of the day, both are computers.
You are just arguing for arguing sake. Yes, if you drive or go somewhere you should take your phone with you. That is the point of a cell phone. My gosh people. Saying computers are the same as cell phones are just ridiculous.

I carry my phone when I go out to events/movies/stores/etc. I do not bring my 50 pound computer or even a laptop to these things.

And in an emergency, it is much faster to dial 911 on a phone than the following:
Start computer
hook up headset
log in
start Skype
dial 911

And you know Windows is filled with Malware so what if my computer is down? What then? THIS is why a true "CELL PHONE" needs to have more security.
 
That's a lot of butt hurt people failing for many pages to explain why they're so sure that the iPhone will suddenly lack any security if side loading is allowed. We get it, you love Apple and want to defend your sweetheart, but you don't all get scared when you use your Macs do you? They're not devoid of security, surely?
 
My iPads, Laptops, and desktops ALL do not have cellular network connectivity. Like I said, dragging a 50 pound desktop, monitor, keyboard, mouse, battery with me in my car is equivalent to a cell phone?!
Explicitly missing my entire point. Only difference between your 50 kg desktop and laptops are it's clunky size and lack of battery. Remove the battery in a laptop, and it's no difference.

My iPad Pro(LTE+Wi-Fi), iPad Air(LTE+Wi-Fi), iPad Mini(LTE+Wi-Fi), my glorified iPod touch(LTE+Wi-Fi) or iPhone as it's commonly called can run any program a computer can

Or iPad Mini/air/pro(Wi-Fi), iPod touch(Wi-Fi) MacBook Air M1(Wi-Fi), MacBook Pro M1 etc. etc. run the same hardware can run the same apps but for some reason one of these cant install whatever application as I wish on my property because apple say so and iOS is more special than macOS? Even tho you likely can run M1 macOS on my iPhone with some tinkering.

What's the difference between these outside of apple's arbitrary distinction?
MacBook Air M1 can run any app, But iPad Mini with a keyboard case and trackpad can't?
 
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