Lion Clean Install Requires Snow Leopard Disk?

[AidenShaw]

I think in order to have the ultimate in easily restorable computers, Apple would need to build some sort of "basic OS" into the EFI/Firmware (Sorry, I don't know much about EFI - I'm still much more familiar with a BIOS system.)

Intel did this ages ago - it's the standard network boot / USB boot protocol.

You do *not* want to put this in NVRAM (flash) as part of the firmware. You can't update the firmware every time something in the kit changes.

You want the firmware to be able to load a secondary bootstrap from the local network (PXE boot or the standard "netboot" on Intel) or a small thumbdrive.

The secondary bootstrap will have the intelligence to find the kit on your local network or the internet, and begin the install.

All Apple needs to do is update the NAS backup box or Apple OSX to listen for the network boot requests - or make a simple tool to write the bootstrap to a USB thumb drive.

Intel has already done the hard part.

 

[robeddie]

It makes sense if you consider that the latest iMac HD is not user-replacable.

This thread is going in circles..

But it can be replaced. And the problem around the fan issue is easily (and safely) circumvented:

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/05/13/hdd-fan-control-software-addresses-imac-hard-drive-replacement-i/

 

[InuNacho]

I can just imagine Steve Jobs in TRON where the "inside" is a perfect world running on IOS.

Jobs would say:
Oh we have a use-eeer who wants to install from physical media! (drawing a booo from the crowd)

Listen, you recently have been demoted to a "device"!

Finder would be MCP.

 

[miografico]

Apple has surrendered the personal computer market to Microsoft in exchange for pursuing the far more profitable mobile device market.

It's also safe to say with the underwhelming release of FCP X that Apple has officially surrendered the creative market, too. Apple is now about consumption, not creativity. The irony being that soon most of what Apple owners will be consuming will be created in Windows or Linux.

I agree. We just finished up a meeting between our developers and the moment two or three more big platforms allow for compilation of iOS binaries on Windows (We only know of Flash having this capability now) we will be moving away from using the Mac in a production capacity. I am assuming Apple will open the door to that soon.

I only see Mac Mini's being of use to us in the future for OS X desktop applications testing and moving binaries for testing onto iDevices themselves.

I made the comment before many threads ago I didn't believe they would drop workstation class machines, but I believe that's less than five years away as well. I also am now of the opinion from the details of Lion that applications not on the Mac App Store will most likely be relegated to second class citizens in the future and eventually barred from the system as whole.

This approach with Lion will either be the future of all applications on the platform or they will fail miserably and have to change their approach. We simply do not have the time or the funds to wait out this nonsense and as such will be keeping our investment(s) in Apple technology to a minimum.

Here is to being able to compile iOS binaries in MonoDevelop on Windows. That day cannot come soon enough.

We'll continue to make money from the platform, but just as you cannot sit down, fire up an IDE on your Xbox and code a socket server - we're not going to be relegated to working on what would be considered consumer appliances not PC's.

 

[ten-oak-druid]

the app store comes with 10.6.6
you can't download it separately
and you will need 10.6.8 in order to get Lion from the Mac App Store anyway
that's a known fact

Well there you go. Thanks for the fact.

 

[sclawis300]

You know the one page on Apple's web site says simply 10.6 is required.

Another pages says it comes bundled with 10.6.6.

It says on the App store page (same that gives 10.6 as a requirement) that it will appear as a stand alone download. So I am not sure now. I guess to test, software update would need to be run on 10.6 and see if it shows up.

I'm going by Apple's site though which says 10.6.

Perhaps it is 10.6.6 though since it was bundled with that.

Anyway I imagine there will be a minimum combo updater to get to the app store. Why go all the way to 10.6.8 just to install Lion?

OMG...kind of like, why do I have to install SL just to get to Lion???? are you freaking kidding me? You don't even have to pay for that update.

 

[MrNomNoms]

And once again we have people here ignore the fact that there is a dmg within the Lion.app that they can write to a thumb drive or a DVD if they so wish. It is amazing the number of people who keep perpetuating the same myths even after they've been correct multiple times.

 

[GoKyu]

Intel did this ages ago - it's the standard network boot / USB boot protocol.

You do *not* want to put this in NVRAM (flash) as part of the firmware. You can't update the firmware every time something in the kit changes.

You want the firmware to be able to load a secondary bootstrap from the local network (PXE boot or the standard "netboot" on Intel) or a small thumbdrive.

The secondary bootstrap will have the intelligence to find the kit on your local network or the internet, and begin the install.

All Apple needs to do is update the NAS backup box or Apple OSX to listen for the network boot requests - or make a simple tool to write the bootstrap to a USB thumb drive.

Intel has already done the hard part.

This.

Thanks, I really have never used/had to use Intel's wake on LAN or network boot, so I really don't know much about it/how it works.

So something like that should allow for OS downloads for the future - it seems to be the future of how OSes/OS updates are delivered.

 

[HyperX13]

And once again we have people here ignore the fact that there is a dmg within the Lion.app that they can write to a thumb drive or a DVD if they so wish. It is amazing the number of people who keep perpetuating the same myths even after they've been correct multiple times.

Issue is that we need to find work arounds to both hd upgrade on iMacs and now lion upgrade from scratch. Where does it end? What is next?

 

[beginnersview]

https://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/21/lion-clean-install-requires-snow-leopard-disk/
In order to perform a "clean install" of Lion -- on a new hard drive or when restoring a machine to sell it, for example -- users will need to install Snow Leopard first, ...

This new OS distribution policy and re-install procedure is just plain dumb, dumb, dumb.

It will needlessly alienate non-technical users who find a need for reinstalling (those users who could previously just pop in the gray Apple OS DVD that came with their machine). And will nearly disenfranchise any user who has either a slow internet connection or a monthly cap that would be pushed or overtaxed by the size of these installation downloads. This of course also assumes that one has a working machine to make the download.

While the concept undoubtedly will be more common practice in the future, this is too harsh a change for all but the well-connected and technically sophisticated.

IMHO as a tech support person.

(disclaimer, so yes, perhaps it will increase my support business calls. still not a good OS distribution plan.)

____
P.S. aside from the occasional rant, I appreciate that there are a lot of good posts in these forums exploring options and other considerations. An important and good thing in these changing times.

 

[radiogoober]

This new OS distribution policy and re-install procedure is just plain dumb, dumb, dumb.

It will needlessly alienate non-technical users who find a need for reinstalling (those users who could previously just pop in the gray Apple OS DVD that came with their machine). And will nearly disenfranchise any user who has either a slow internet connection or a monthly cap that would be pushed or overtaxed by the size of these installation downloads. This of course also assumes that one has a working machine to make the download.

While the concept undoubtedly will be more common practice in the future, this is too harsh a change for all but the well-connected and technically sophisticated.

IMHO as a tech support person.

(disclaimer, so yes, perhaps it will increase my support business calls. still not a good OS distribution plan.)

____
P.S. aside from the occasional rant, I appreciate that there are a lot of good posts in these forums exploring options and other considerations. An important and good thing in these changing times.

Lol. You're saying joe "dumb user" is capable of reinstalling OS X from disk, but not capable of downloading it from the app store.

LOL

LOL

LOL

 

[Gamoe]

So are we supposed to install Snow Leopard, go through all the software updates and *then* install Lion, or should we install Lion on an un-updated Snow Leopard and *then* run the updates?

This is ridiculous and unnecessarily clumsy. It also introduces lots of potential issues. Apple needs to give us an option of a clean install from a flash drive or DVD burn. Isn't it enough that Apple is requiring us to download the entire OS in the first place?*

* I've downloaded a lot of (Linux) OSs, but most of them were free and completely open source, and certainly capable of a clean install via flash drive or DVD. Also initial downloads are usually much leaner than 4 GB.

 

[mac.tastic]

The solution is very simple.
Do a full "clean install", then make an image of that "clean" hard drive to clone from for all future needs.

 

[scottness]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone Dark: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)

No big deal. By backups are bootable and I can just clone another drive as I do now when needed. No OS DVD/USB drive needed.

 

[the8thark]

From: Steve Jobs
Subject: Re: Lion clean install
Date: June 21, 2011 7:55:05 AM PDT
To: xxxx

You can clean install Snow Leopaard [sic] first.

Sent from my iPhone

Leopaard?
I don't think Jobs would spell his own products wrong.

 

[bosephus61]

If they continue to follow the same model as the store has now; there is an DMG install image which can be burnt to a USB thumb drive or a DS DVD. It installs clean fine.

What Steve was saying was for common foke -- with a little digging you can fine it in the update package.

 

[ziggyonice]

Wonder how this'll work for Apple Authorized Service Providers?

I have a few friends who work for an AASP, and having to install Snow Leopard just to get to Lion would use up far too much time. Is a Lion disk image still able to be copied over to a new drive (via NetRestore, etc.)?

 

[scottness]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone Dark: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)

From: Steve Jobs
Subject: Re: Lion clean install
Date: June 21, 2011 7:55:05 AM PDT
To: xxxx

You can clean install Snow Leopaard [sic] first.

Sent from my iPhone

Leopaard?
I don't think Jobs would spell his own products wrong.

Lol... Wouldn't his iPhone have corrected that misspelling?

Leopard -- there, mine just did.

 

[ckeck]

This won't be a problem if we can burn it to DVD, but it will be if we can't.

You can extract the install file from the App Store download and restore to either a DVD or USB thumb drive to initiate a "clean" install. Relax everyone.

 

[Lounge Deluxe]

I'll do a clean install of SL first, then install Lion from the App store, finally make a copy with CarbonCopyCloner, store that copy in a safe place and voila, I'm good to go for any future reinstalls.

 

[phalseHUD]

You can extract the install file from the App Store download and restore to either a DVD or USB thumb drive to initiate a "clean" install. Relax everyone.

Maybe on the Developer Preview but judging by these responses (if they are truly genuine), not on the final release. Wouldn't the high chancellor know this if you could do it? I'd have thought so... We'll see how it turns out but this bull might just give me a kick up the arse to jump ship to Ubuntu.

 

[JohnDoe98]

Maybe on the Developer Preview but judging by these responses (if they are truly genuine), not on the final release. Wouldn't the high chancellor know this if you could do it? I'd have thought so... We'll see how it turns out but this bull might just give me a kick up the arse to jump ship to Ubuntu.

Good luck with that. My bet in a few years you would be back anyway.

 

[chaosbunny]

Change just for the sake of change. OS installation is easy enough just putting in a DVD or plugging an usb stick in. This is not about making users life easier or progressing with technology, this is only about getting more credit card and personal information of every Mac user.

 

[christian_k]

Does the upgrade really work by downloading a big "App" that creates a recovery partition?

If this is true you need a lot of free disc space to perform the upgrade. This can be a problem (think of a MBA with 64 GB SSD).

Can you remove the recovery partition after the upgrade?

Christian

 

[chaosbunny]

Does the upgrade really work by downloading a big "App" that creates a recovery partition?

If this is true you need a lot of free disc space to perform the upgrade. This can be a problem (think of a MBA with 64 GB SSD).

Can you remove the recovery partition after the upgrade?

Christian

No problem, since you are supposed to store all your data in the cloud anyway.