So, with all your theories, did Ben fail "The Test"? I mean, he listened to the bad guy, and killed Jacob..
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Lost TV show (Part 2) -- includes spoilers on show nights
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Well that's one thing I'm not quite sure on. I think the general consensus was that Smokie was the apparations that we saw (Christian, Yemi, Alex) and that he somehow used their bodies. That's why Jack didn't find hiss dad's body and Eko couldn't find his brothers. Of course, Christian's could've just fell out of the coffin and Yemi's burned when he set the plane afire, but I think the missing bodies was a big deal.
But then what about Walt? He was obviosuly alive in NY and no body for Smokie or anti-Jacob to use.
I think we'll get an answer as to who is what. As of now, I'm just not sure.
I don't know though... it seemed like Jacob wanted to be killed. He taunted him with the "what about you" and I think he could've easily persuaded Ben to not do it. Or maybe he knew that "they were coming" and knew anti-Jacob was wrong so it doesn't matter if he lives or dies, he won. I dunno... not too sure about Ben now.
BTW, The Test by ...The Academy Is came on. What a Lost-esque moment.
im with you that it didnt seem like Jacob really cared if Ben killed him. i think that the 77 crew passed their test and are "coming" as Jacob said.
I loved that the whole time characters on the show were like i cant believe Locke is alive and they have seen the island do some incredible stuff but dead is dead. i mean is was the name of one of the episodes. They were practically screaming at us that something was wrong about Locke coming back from the dead and we all just kind of were like no its fine he's just really "special." derka derka. i mean i think we knew that something was up and with him. but did any of you think that it was Locke's body in that big crate?! Oh well i got got and i liked it haha.
I loved that the whole time characters on the show were like i cant believe Locke is alive and they have seen the island do some incredible stuff but dead is dead. i mean is was the name of one of the episodes. They were practically screaming at us that something was wrong about Locke coming back from the dead and we all just kind of were like no its fine he's just really "special." derka derka.
i mean i think we knew that something was up and with him. but did any of you think that it was Locke's body in that big crate?! Oh well i got got and i liked it haha.
We all saw Locke's body roll out of that container, so we know Mr. Evil does not take over the body. I can't explain Christian's body being missing.
Sure, throw Walt out there to confuse me more. So maybe he does not need the dead, but just the image of the person who would best be able to trick you into doing something? The whole Walt thing just makes the theory hard to swallow now. Thanks!
Sure, throw Walt out there to confuse me more.
So maybe he does not need the dead, but just the image of the person who would best be able to trick you into doing something? The whole Walt thing just makes the theory hard to swallow now. Thanks! 
Excellent. If you don't mind, I'd like to expand on this with a few questions.
1. Why couldn't Mr. Evil/Locke kill Jacob himself?
2. Why couldn't he just use Christian's body?
3. When Ben said, (paraphrasing) "he gets led here like Moses" Locke/whoever gave quite an O RLY? look at Jacob. Maybe some Bible scholars could shed some light on how that could be allegorical.
4. How didn't Locke guy know about the foot/statue? He'd obviously seen it for hundreds of years.
Locke/Mr. Evil's speech to Ben sounds similar to the way other movies have depicted a devil living amongst humans. "You've been loyal - and still your daughter was murdered, you got cancer, etc etc." Very manipulative.
Very cool finale. I hated to see Juliet go! Hopefully, the white flash at the end was the final time shift, and they are all back in the 00's, Juliet included. I think this is what Jacob meant when he said "they're coming."
I was thinking the whole time that flocke (props to lostfan916 on the sweet nickname) was much taller than Locke ever was. This is a nice subtle hint the writers put in.
I have so much to say about this episode that I barely know where to begin.
Flocke found (part of?) his loophole - to tell Richard, as fake Locke, to tell Locke that he has to kill himself, so that Flocke could take over as Locke (as he can clearly manipulate dead people. Locke was a great choice as the leader of Jacob's people). But if he has to be flocke in order to tell Richard what to tell Locke, then how did he do it in the first place?
I don't think Jacob is neccesarily dead. We know he has been alive for a very long time, and we saw that he didn't do anything to try to dissuade Ben from stabbing him. Yes, there was a lot of blood, but that could mean anything.
I also think it is premature to judge flocke as the bad guy and Jacob as the good guy. I think the flashbacks were implying that Jacob was responsible for all the terrible things that happened to all the Losties during their lives. Why would he have done that, though? Was he testing them? Somehow preparing them for his game? Perhaps after the game is over (if it ends), they go back to the moment when Jacob visited them and get to live life all over again. Or maybe it is a test to see if they can even be "candidates".
I definitely do think flocke and smokey are on the same team. Smokey convinces Ben through Alex to follow "Locke", who we now assume to be flocke. So through that, flocke got his in to manipulate Ben into killing Jacob. (I agree that he is unable to do physical things, and has to manipulate living people to do his dirty work). However, if Ben was following Jacob, and Smokey is controlled by Jacob's enemy, then how did Ben control Smokey last season? Could Smokey be neutral?
Before he dies, Jacob says "they're coming", and flocke gets flustered. I agree that this is referring to the 816 crew coming from the past to the future. If this is the case, then perhaps, as someone mentioned earlier, one of the 816 crew is going to become Jacob, similar to what happened to flocke. My guess is Jack, which would bring back the classic Jack vs. John theme that had seemingly dissapeared as of the end of this season.
Doctor Q mentioned that the bright flash at the end could have been a time flash instead of an explosion. I agree with this. The Losties need to get back to present day somehow. If the trip back to '74-'77 was actually a test, then the test is over at that point, and everyone goes back to square 1. How this effects the Island is TBD (did this always happen, or did they change things?).
Did new Bernard and Rose seem to anyone else to be just like an other? Bernard had the look going on, and they seemed so at peace with the Island. They seemed calm and cool, just like both groups that seem native to the island (the others and the ajira crew).
I have so much to say about this episode that I barely know where to begin.
Flocke found (part of?) his loophole - to tell Richard, as fake Locke, to tell Locke that he has to kill himself, so that Flocke could take over as Locke (as he can clearly manipulate dead people. Locke was a great choice as the leader of Jacob's people). But if he has to be flocke in order to tell Richard what to tell Locke, then how did he do it in the first place?
I don't think Jacob is neccesarily dead. We know he has been alive for a very long time, and we saw that he didn't do anything to try to dissuade Ben from stabbing him. Yes, there was a lot of blood, but that could mean anything.
I also think it is premature to judge flocke as the bad guy and Jacob as the good guy. I think the flashbacks were implying that Jacob was responsible for all the terrible things that happened to all the Losties during their lives. Why would he have done that, though? Was he testing them? Somehow preparing them for his game? Perhaps after the game is over (if it ends), they go back to the moment when Jacob visited them and get to live life all over again. Or maybe it is a test to see if they can even be "candidates".
I definitely do think flocke and smokey are on the same team. Smokey convinces Ben through Alex to follow "Locke", who we now assume to be flocke. So through that, flocke got his in to manipulate Ben into killing Jacob. (I agree that he is unable to do physical things, and has to manipulate living people to do his dirty work). However, if Ben was following Jacob, and Smokey is controlled by Jacob's enemy, then how did Ben control Smokey last season? Could Smokey be neutral?
Before he dies, Jacob says "they're coming", and flocke gets flustered. I agree that this is referring to the 816 crew coming from the past to the future. If this is the case, then perhaps, as someone mentioned earlier, one of the 816 crew is going to become Jacob, similar to what happened to flocke. My guess is Jack, which would bring back the classic Jack vs. John theme that had seemingly dissapeared as of the end of this season.
Doctor Q mentioned that the bright flash at the end could have been a time flash instead of an explosion. I agree with this. The Losties need to get back to present day somehow. If the trip back to '74-'77 was actually a test, then the test is over at that point, and everyone goes back to square 1. How this effects the Island is TBD (did this always happen, or did they change things?).
Did new Bernard and Rose seem to anyone else to be just like an other? Bernard had the look going on, and they seemed so at peace with the Island. They seemed calm and cool, just like both groups that seem native to the island (the others and the ajira crew).
Good post barr. I have more to say, but just wanted to point out this part right now.
I always thought it was strange how Locke told Richard that he had to tell Locke to kill himself. It seemed like some kind of paradox or something, kind of like the compass. Where did the compass come from, Locke or Richard. TPTB explained it in the podcast as what came first, the chicken or the egg. But now we know that it wasn't Locke, but Flocke. Flocke told Richard that he had to tell Locke to kill himself... So wait. Is Flocke responsible for Locke's death? I mean we know it was Ben who did it, but Flocke told Locke to kill himself.
This is making my head hurt.
I agree. We've spent a couple of years trying to figure out who were the good guys and who were the bad guys. The other's weren't as bad as we once thought, Darma wasn't as noble as we once thought.
That's a very good point. How did he not know that Jacob lives there?
Great episode, a good way to keep us wondering WTH is going to happen when the show resumes in 2010. I can't believe how long we have to wait.
I guess my Locke is Jacob theory was wrong after all......
I agree that everything we saw happened, and always happened, but still the concept of them 'fixing it' and never crashing in the first place wouldn't ever make sense. The only way the writers gloss over that is if the flash IS time travel, and not blowing up the island.
Just annoying the characters didn't ever entertain the fact that what they were trying to do don't make no sense!
Are you guys sure she detonated the bomb? It looked identical to the flashes from earlier seasons, this could have happened as a result of the energy being tapped in to. Or am i clinging on to the hope that she will be around next season So many questions!!! Season 6 is going to be amazing
So many questions!!! Season 6 is going to be amazing 
I was fine with the idea of them "fixing" the future. I just assumed that once that happened, they'd each sort of disappear since at that point they'd no longer exist on the island and bam problem solved.
I thought it would be a sweet application of the old saying "You can't change the past, but it's never to late to change the future" the 815'ers getting an awesome opportunity to travel to the past and change the future.
But we all know that there's much more to it than that, since there is a whole other season ahead of us. They've got to drag it on for another season still.
SLC
I like your post, Cursor, but I'd like to think the writers were a bit more subtle than good vs. evil. It has been rather obvious that the show is about science & faith, and I wonder if Jacob and Flocke in some way represent this. Science would be neutral towards faith, but human history shows that faith is opposed to science. Just a thought.
Just been wondering how Flocke (as we seem to be calling him) knew all of his memories. I guess if this man is the smoke monster who we know can "pull" the memories of people then he would know all about the real Locke's past.
Also i am curious as to why the shadow statue group are hauling Locke's body around in that big metal chest? it seems kind of unnecessary. also where is the coffin?
Also i am curious as to why the shadow statue group are hauling Locke's body around in that big metal chest? it seems kind of unnecessary. also where is the coffin?
Juliet's detonation of the bomb seemed like quite the parrot of the tv miniseries 10.5 from about five years back, which, I recall others saying was a emulated from another program. So that aspect of this episode seemed like quite the knockoff of the knockoff, but maybe that's just me.
I think that John was in the coffin that was in the crate.
What do people think of the point Mike Teezie made above (that I quoted in post #834)? No one has commented....
This is why I'm very skeptical that Locke is "Mr. Evil." Somehow, Locke is just Locke. Let's face it, all during the episode, the living Locke was the Locke we've always known. If he were some sort of impostor, there would have been a misfired moment.
Also, I'm not convinced "Mr. Evil" is evil. I wish I could compare what he told Jacob with what Juliet said about Ben when she wanted to leave the island. It could very well be that the other guy is from the Black Rock or some other ship, marooned on the island and incapable of escape. That could certainly generate a lot of harsh feelings without being evil.
Besides, what has Jacob done that would constitute him being a force for good?
The theories that Jacob = good and other guy = evil have compelling points, but I'm remaining skeptical.
mt
He was pretending to be Locke so he couldn't let on that he knows things Locke shouldn't. He was just playing the part.
The thing that makes the least sense to me is the compass.
i agree that we dont know, but everything with lost is the black being evil and white being good.
my theory about the two of them is that they may both not be "good" or "evil." The reason i say this is because what is good or evil? mr. black guy may be in evil from one perspective but not from another. he seems very protective of the island. so he was upset at Jacob for bringing the black rock to the island. why? because he said that they would bring destruction and death to the island. now im not saying that Jacob is bad for the island but he also didnt kick someone into the fire. so far he hasent done anything that is evil. i mean he did bring the Black Rock to the island and that didnt turn out well for some of the members of that ship because we see some skeletons in the ship. but i dont think he is evil. but i am agreeing with you that mr. black shirt guy may not be evil either. he is just very protective of the island.
It's a very good point! and it had me stumped for a while too.
However, although we see the guy and Jacob having the conversation on the beach (next to the statue) at the beginning, it does not necessarily mean that the guy knows that Jacob actually lives inside it - after all, the entrance to the room below the statue is well hidden.
When the guy walks up to Jacob in that opening scene, it looks like Jacob is just hanging out there doing a bit of fishing. When the guy says he wants to kill Jacob and that "one day I'll find a loohole" Jacob replies "Well when you do, I'll be right here" - I think Jacob is playing with him a bit - Jacob means literally right here, but the guy doesn't take it so literally.
And later, Flocke is not necessarily surprised by the existence statue itself, just that it is Jacob's home: Locke says "Well it's a wonderful foot Richard, but what does it have to do with Jacob?" - Richard replies "It's where he lives" - At this flocke's eyes widen slightly and flick across to Richard showing that this is news to him.
I'm conviced that flocke is the same guy that we see talking to Jacob at the start because when flocke and Ben go into the room inside the statue, after flocke says "Hello Jacob", he replies "well you found your loophole" - which directly refers back to the conversation at the beginning.
I think Cursor has it pretty spot on with "2 Gods" (God/Satan?) arguing over the good/evil essence of humanity - watching the opening scene again after reading his post it seems to fit perfectly. Talking about the arrival of the ship the guy says, "you brought them here, still trying to prove me wrong aren't you?" - Jacob replies "you are wrong" - guy says "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt, it always ends the same". I don't really understand Jacob's reply to that though, he says "It only ends once, anthing that happens before that, it's just progress" - can anyone shed any light on that?
As others have said, I think the guy/flocke cannot hurt Jacob directly and the "loophole" refers to his manipulation of Ben to do his dirty work for him. I also think that the white flash at the end is a time shift (possibly explosion as well) and "they're coming' refers to jack et al coming back from the 70's.
What a great series - I wouldn't mind a bit of time shifting myself now - roll on 2010!
PS - can someone tell me what episode/s the Black Rock ship has been in before? I must have missed that...
Charlie.
Esau. Jacob. Jacob and Esau. Anybody?
That's what other forums are calling the mysterious guy in the beginning who we all think is also fakeLocke - Esau.
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