Mac Mini to Lose Its USB-A Ports Later This Year

[theluggage]

I want a Mac Mini with 8 Thunderbolt Ports that I can connect to my hubs.

...and maybe if there's ever a M4 Ultra Mini or Studio you'll get that, but don't expect it to cost much less than $5000.

The base M1/M2/M3 chips only have two Thunderbolt controllers on the chip. It looks like the M4 might have 4 but that hasn't been confirmed yet.

Each full-fat Thunderbolt 3 port needs the processor to provide the equivalent of 4 lanes of PCIe; if you want to connect a display for that port the GPU/Display engine has to be able to provide a DisplayPort stream to it; the power supply also has to have the potential to provide 15W to each port (more if you want to charge your laptop from it).

Each USB A or Ethernet port only takes a fraction of the bandwidth of a TB3 port and, on a desktop, can probably use some of the "spare" internal I/O bandwidth that would be used for keyboards and trackpads on a laptop.

The presence of USB A ports is not what's stopping you from getting your 8 TB ports. The problem is that TB3 ports are expensive both in terms of cost and CPU resources.

 

[drrich2]

Logitech make such a dongle ! USB C is not a new standard.

A lot of people have more USB-A ports than USB-C, and would prefer to reserve the USB-C ports for peripherals with high data transmission needs. Some quick Googling suggests that while with USB-A receivers can fit almost flush with the computer, like a button protrusion from the port (and we see thumb drives like this), with USB-C it's needful the receiver jut out more. If the USB-C receiver isn't functionally superior for the task at hand, it's apt to cost a little more, jut out further and be compatible with fewer systems.

 

[Nekronos]

Can be annoying, but switching to a new standard is always tough. If companies don't remove them we will carry these legacy ports around forever. They are the ones that can force everyone else to finally adapt.

There's really no reason to try and kill usb-a for desktops, I can see the rational for mobile devices but desktops?

usb-a remains very useful and there are tons of devices that rely on it and usb-c isn't going to bring improvements, all it's going to do is create more e-waste.

 

[SVTmaniac]

I’m still not sure why in 2024 every single thing isn’t USB-C already.

 

[bgillander]

I, personally, dislike that Apple added HDMI and an SD card reader to the Macbook Pro. Never use them (Display port is better than HDMI and it's native to TB) and would much rather have one more TB port.

Cool. I don’t think MagSafe affects that scenario, and that was what I said I was happy to have. Matter of fact, I believe MagSafe frees up a TB port that is no longer required for charging, so there is your extra TB port.

I, personally, have yet to run out of TB ports on my MacBook Pro, while I have used the SD card reader, so my mileage may vary.

 

[theluggage]

Bigger question is why the hell doesn't Logitech make such a dongle ! USB C is not a new standard.

Someone posted a link to this a while back: https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/a...aming-keyboards-and-mice-have-USB-C-receivers

Look particularly at the last paragraph.

TLDNR: With USB-A you can build a wireless transceiver (or a memory stick) into the shaft of the plug and have those nice, low-profile dongles that you can just leave plugged in to a laptop. With USB-C all the workings have to go in the "handle" - so where USB-C mouse dongles do exist, they end up nearly as big as a USB-A dongle plugged into a USB-C adapter anyway, and can't be left plugged in when you're moving the laptop.

Even those "double ended" USB-C/A memory sticks are only as small as they are because the memory is built into the shaft of the USB-A plug.

Smaller isn't always better...

 

[Nekronos]

Usb-c to Usb-a adapters and hubs are a thing

Ah, so you advocate for the creation of more e-waste for the sake of creating more e-waste.

You know desktops are the thing that historically don't require hubs and extra adapter cables for peripherals, there's no benefit to consumers from shedding inexpensive and low power ports on a desktop.

If i wanted to have to buy a hub, I'd get a portable laptop with few ports.

 

[eno12]

...and maybe if there's ever a M4 Ultra Mini or Studio you'll get that, but don't expect it to cost much less than $5000.

The base M1/M2/M3 chips only have two Thunderbolt controllers on the chip. It looks like the M4 might have 4 but that hasn't been confirmed yet.

Each full-fat Thunderbolt 3 port needs the processor to provide the equivalent of 4 lanes of PCIe; if you want to connect a display for that port the GPU/Display engine has to be able to provide a DisplayPort stream to it; the power supply also has to have the potential to provide 15W to each port (more if you want to charge your laptop from it).

Each USB A or Ethernet port only takes a fraction of the bandwidth of a TB3 port and, on a desktop, can probably use some of the "spare" internal I/O bandwidth that would be used for keyboards and trackpads on a laptop.

The presence of USB A ports is not what's stopping you from getting your 8 TB ports. The problem is that TB3 ports are expensive both in terms of cost and CPU resources.

That is likely not the case at all. Apple likely (need to double check this) uses some of the pcie lanes for a USB-A hub and HDMI (no free lunch). Some of these are being repurposed for another USB-C port. This gives the user the option of using that bandwidth as they see fit. I have absolutely no need for USB-A on any of my devices at this point so good riddance to USB-A. It was a horrible connector in the 90s and it is still a horrible connector (though not as horrible as USB-B).

 

[Nekronos]

Nice. In a way, I kinda missed the Apple of old who was not afraid to make controversial design decisions like going all in on usb c with their Macs.

Not that hard to work around this. One usb-c for a dock or adaptor, Bluetooth everything else, 5 is actually a luxury.

Are you suggesting design changes for the sake of controversy is a positive thing?

The average person doesn't buy a desktop so they can then buy an adapter/dock/hub - those are literally designed for mobile devices.

And not everyone likes having bluetooth powered peripherals they need to change the batteries on or recharge constantly.

I'll take a wired keyboard/mouse all day and no I don't want a hub for a desktop - it's just silly.

The wilder thing is all this push for bluetooth and wireless devices along with trying to phase out something like USB-A is causing so much e-waste - bit ironic for Apple's mother nature.

 

[bgillander]

Ah, so you advocate for the creation of more e-waste for the sake of creating more e-waste.

You know desktops are the thing that historically don't require hubs and extra adapter cables for peripherals, there's no benefit to consumers from shedding inexpensive and low power ports on a desktop.

If i wanted to have to buy a hub, I'd get a portable laptop with few ports.

Technically, the adapter is for the sake of avoiding e-waste, as it allows one to use an existing device or cable.

If e-waste is truly the main concern, one should not be buying a new computer.

 

[eno12]

There's really no reason to try and kill usb-a for desktops, I can see the rational for mobile devices but desktops?

usb-a remains very useful and there are tons of devices that rely on it and usb-c isn't going to bring improvements, all it's going to do is create more e-waste.

This kind of thinking is why PS/2 just won't die. You can still find motherboards with it despite it being inferior too USB in every way. For USB-A there is no reason to throw away your devices, just buy an adapter and continue to use them. It is not a big deal.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Part of the appeal of Apple's devices has been that they've been designing them not for yesterday or today, not for yesterday's or today's user requirements. They often - and not always without controversy - offered a glimpse just ever ahead into the future of computing:

A future without floppy disks, without analog modems, without wired network cables, without ADB or PS/2 connectors, without optical disk drives, with new "unibody" manufacturing techniques, with adaptive touch bars instead of buttons, with universal ports that can do everything (charging, connecting a display, external store, network adapter or input device). And yes, that also means without "old" USB-A ports.

But that's still what made the appeal, elegance and "magic" of Apple's designs.

They surely weren't always accepted and appreciated by the market (see 12-inch MacBook or the Touch Bar).
They sometimes required inegelegant "workarounds" for people to adapt them to their current needs (dongles).

Apple seemingly made concessions users in some cases. Such as bringing back MagSafe, card reader and HDMI on MacBook Pros. Though I'm still not sure if that wasn't more related to the limit of Thunderbolt controllers on SOCs (as also mentioned just above. I think it's quite likely that that may have been the reason for keeping around USB-A ports on the Apple Silicon Mac mini in the first place: If you only have a souped-up smartphone chip with limited TB ports but require a certain "usable" amount of USB ports, you may just as well include two more USB-A and call it a day.

As for the question what ports a new, redesigned Mac mini may have, I believe the writing's on the wall: Just look at the redesigned iMac: Two or four USB-C connectors. No USB-A. Even when two of the four don't (can't) support Thunderbolt, USB4 or display output but are "plain" USB3 standard:

Side note: I wouldn't be shocked if a new Mac Mini didn't include Gigabit ethernet either. Though I suppose Apple may again make a concession for customers using them as servers and do include them.

 

[Nekronos]

Technically, the adapter is for the sake of avoiding e-waste, as it allows one to use an existing device or cable.

If e-waste is truly the main concern, one should not be buying a new computer.

Adapters are significant contributor to e-waste. You are really going to argue the adapter which adds e-waste is avoiding e-waste?

You know what avoids even more e-waste? Waiting to phase out ports on a desktop that are still widely used - leaving that port in is inconsequential.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Side note: I wouldn't be shocked if a new Mac Mini didn't include Gigabit ethernet either.

I could see them going down the Apple TV route and making "just having Ethernet" suddenly an option you have to pay more for.

I assume everyone is going to cheer for that also?

 

[ender78]

Umm I guess you don't have speakers connected to your machine. For me the USB A port is connected to the USB B port of my audio receiver/DAC. Thus, I hope Apple does not drop the very useful USB A on newer Studio ultras.

My Kanto speakers use Toslink/Optical which is connected to my Calgdigit 3 Dock. Why is the DAC made with a USB B port instead of USB C ?

 

[ender78]

FWIW, most of the small form factor PC's typically have at least 4 USB A ports with two ports on each connector.

So Apple is more forward thinking by adding USB4/Thunderbolt. The fact that many PCs today only ship with USB 3.2 ports or only 1 or 2 USB4 ports is backward thinking. Given how many content creators are on Macs we see a lot more high bandwidth external devices.

 

[deevey]

Maybe a USB-C headphone adapter would work. I have one for my phone. Probably need an adapter that adapter, because that is a 4 channel adapter, and my speakers are still just stereo. New stuff doesn't always work.

4 channel phone adapter? Are you sure it's not 2 in 2 out or dual headphone?

Link please as I could do with an actual 4ch one?

 

[Nekronos]

This kind of thinking is why PS/2 just won't die. You can still find motherboards with it despite it being inferior too USB in every way. For USB-A there is no reason to throw away your devices, just buy an adapter and continue to use them. It is not a big deal.

PS/2 does what it does well, of course you can still find motherboards with it, I have one myself, still works perfectly. I'd push back on that though, PS/2 has effectively died. And as a caveat - at least with PCs I can build it however I want to ensure my build incorporates my preferred ports and peripherals.

It's like you didn't read my post - "just buy an adapter" I'll pass on that - killing a perfectly usable and widely used port type ON A DESKTOP of all things is extremely wasteful and serves little benefit to consumers. This isn't a phone or laptop we're talking about here where the port effects the thickness or IPX rating.

So Apple kills a port, saves a few pennies, charges me the same amount of money, and then wants to sell me an adapter or hub for the port they just killed, on a desktop, so I can spend more money for something I shouldn't need to all while contributing to more e-waste. Sounds like an excellent idea, no big deal.

 

[Cirillo Gherardo]

Great decision
Who wants useful ports on a desktop computer!?

/s

A USB-A port can only be a USB-A port, whereas a USB-C port can be anything. What was that about useful? Poor word choice.

 

[Abazigal]

Are you suggesting design changes for the sake of controversy is a positive thing?

I am thinking that many things we take for granted today likely started out as being "weird" or "controversial" at some point, and Apple did play some role in normalising them.

For example, the design of the AirPods when it was first announced in 2016. I am sure the loss of so many ports was a shock to many people when the OG MBA was released in 2008 and took some getting used to for some, but today, it's pretty much an acceptable tradeoff if you want a thin and light form factor. The OG iPhone without a physical keyboard, or even the 1st gen iPad which was at the time criticised as being just a larger iPod touch. All-in-one PCs doesn't seem to sell for Windows OEMs (and to be honest, the ones I do find tend to look and work like crap). Even the square face of the Apple Watch is now synonymous with its design, forcing competitors to either opt for a round face (which I feel is a subpar design choice) or be seen as an Apple Watch clone.

Even the decision to go with all usb-c ports isn't really so new, because as was pointed out above, Apple already did something like this with the iMac, which also placed the audio jack by the side because the screen was simply too thin to accommodate it. And I don't really hear any criticism regarding this (perhaps the iMac was just less popular amongst the "pro" crowd here?)

You know, I honestly thought there would be more support for adopting usb-c across the board, given how fervently the crowd here had argued in favour of it coming to the iPhone.

 

[Arytonsenna]

The mini is generally a desktop unit so a female USB A to male USB C adapter shouldn't be an issue.

Seriously? The mini is a laptop without a screen

 

[Cervisia]

But is it the same folks, though? None of these folks seem to be berserkers.

And I would definitely take MagSafe over USB-A if I had to choose which I wanted on my MacBook. A breakaway charging port has one purpose, but it is very much a valid one, thank you.

Yeah, the one valid point being making the charger incompatible with your phone and tablet without buying another cable. Selling a magsafe-usb-c adapter for the clumsy but vocal few would have been a much better design choice and also for the environment.

 

[Cervisia]

...so do several USB cables have to exist - attached right to the back of your small and compact computer (if you're not using a hub). A computer that's designed to be within arm's length on your desk (otherwise you couldn't turn it on).

Who said anything about turning it off? And it might surprise you, but there are several usb appliances that don't have a cable.

 

[Cervisia]

I have a tiny and very low cost Anker USB-A hub that sits on the floor against the wall, behind my two desks. It handles all of the low-bandwidth USB-A legacy devices and connects to my Mac Studio computer via a *single* USB-C cable.

I don't even see it. The cables are out of the way, and out of sight. No cable clutter on my desks to get in the way. It just works. And have pretty much forgotten about it.

I would much rather have that than a bunch of USB-A cables hooking directly into my Mac Studio, and having fewer USB-C/Thunderbolt ports that I really need for my four displays.

If they are low bandwidth devices, then they can go into a usb-a port on the current mini, leaving 2/4 usb-c ports free. The new mini will have 3/5, but one is taken up by the usb-c hub. You gain nothing.

 

[Stromos]

Bigger question is why the hell doesn't Logitech make such a dongle ! USB C is not a new standard.

Do Logitech wireless non-gaming keyboards and mice have USB-C receivers?

Today, Logitech’s wireless keyboard and mice mainly use USB-A receivers. However, many of our wireless keyboards and mice also connect via Bluetooth® Low Energy technology. Starting in Sept 2021, t...

support.logi.com

Edit: Type C ports are fragile. Dongles need space and they aren’t always light. I’ve mentioned how fragile Type C is for a while. Everyone keeps cheering however, these new ports especially on iPhones aren’t even a year old.

I’m on the upgrade program so I get a new phone every year but I’ve already noticed the port isn’t that tight anymore on my 15 Pro. We have yet to see the fallout of people who will have their phones for multiple years.

My laptop just got replaced at work and do you want to know why? The Type C docking port was getting loose. My laptop is docked to a TB dock daily at home and at work just the weight of the cable had made the port sag.