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But that doesn't change the fact that it screws over around 20% of the Mac user base or more. And in a bad economy, that's obviously going to leave a bad taste in some peoples' mouths for a long time to come.

Not really. If you have older stuff, you realize there are limitations. I waited years before upgrading to OSX, and knew there was a lot of new stuff and upgrades and fixes I just wouldn't get. Even now I'm still with Tiger, and there are things (like new ilife) that I can't get. That's life dude. You going to complain that Ford doesn't service Model T's any more? For every product out there there are upgrades; and if you're happy with what you have and don't upgrade, then be happy. Your computer is going to keep working just fine.
 
Most Windows laptops have webcams, you can use free AV software (although a year's cost for a full suite is about £30), you would also have to buy Office for the Mac too if you were using it and Vista HP is perfectly fine for consumers.

As for iLife, you would use Picasa 3 and Windows Movie Maker. Garage Band is about the only differential product and it's pretty niche.

Can we stop this nonsense about extra costs? Windows PCs are cheaper but that's not why we buy Macs anyway so it's a moot point.

The funny part is that they're really not that much more expensive anymore. A Dell Studio XPS 13 (13" laptop) with a 250 GB Hard drive, an NVidia GeForce 9400 M graphics card, 4 GB RAM, a 2GHZ processor, and Windows Vista Ultimate is $1209. An Apple Macbook (13" laptop) with a 250 GB Hard drive, NVidia Geforce 9400M graphics, 4GB RAM, a 2.13 GHZ processor, and OS X Leopard is $1149. On the high end, a Studio XPS 16 configured like the 17" Macbook Pro is $150 cheaper, but it's got a smaller screen (Dell's 17" laptops aren't available with similar specs).

When you compare a top-of-the-line Macbook with a full featured OS to a low end Dell or HP with a stripped down version of Windows, there's a huge price difference. For people who only use their laptops for web browsers and word processors, a macbook isn't worth it. But for those of us who actually use the higher end machines, the only difference is the better OS.
 
The funny part is that they're really not that much more expensive anymore. A Dell Studio XPS 13 (13" laptop) with a 250 GB Hard drive, an NVidia GeForce 9400 M graphics card, 4 GB RAM, a 2GHZ processor, and Windows Vista Ultimate is $1209. An Apple Macbook (13" laptop) with a 250 GB Hard drive, NVidia Geforce 9400M graphics, 4GB RAM, a 2.13 GHZ processor, and OS X Leopard is $1149. On the high end, a Studio XPS 16 configured like the 17" Macbook Pro is $150 cheaper, but it's got a smaller screen (Dell's 17" laptops aren't available with similar specs).

When you compare a top-of-the-line Macbook with a full featured OS to a low end Dell or HP with a stripped down version of Windows, there's a huge price difference. For people who only use their laptops for web browsers and word processors, a macbook isn't worth it. But for those of us who actually use the higher end machines, the only difference is the better OS.
Which is why I only recommend Apple's laptops. There desktops leave much to be desired
 
That's what I'm worried about too. Sure, it's great right now, but what if, in six months, I have a hard drive crash, install a new HD and want to install Snow? Will I have to buy a whole new copy? Will I have to go through the process of finding then installing Leopard then upgrade it to Snow? It seems like it is potentially a lot of headache...

I'm sure someone answered this already (I can't go through 13+ pages of replies to check) but I assume/hope they have something like the MS upgrade system, where if you want to do a clean install of the upgraded OS you just have to pop in your DVD of the OS you're upgrading from. Of course, if you've lost that, you're SOL.
 
I'm sure someone answered this already (I can't go through 13+ pages of replies to check) but I assume/hope they have something like the MS upgrade system, where if you want to do a clean install of the upgraded OS you just have to pop in your DVD of the OS you're upgrading from. Of course, if you've lost that, you're SOL.
We're still unclear on the from scratch installation for the Snow Leopard upgrade. Doing a verification via optical media is painfully annoying from Apple.

Machine IDs are possible but there are going to be plenty of machines grandfathered in due to refurbs and drop-in discs. Not to mention that the bad machine check can be overridden as well just like Leopard's was.
 
Not really. If you have older stuff, you realize there are limitations. I waited years before upgrading to OSX, and knew there was a lot of new stuff and upgrades and fixes I just wouldn't get. Even now I'm still with Tiger, and there are things (like new ilife) that I can't get. That's life dude. You going to complain that Ford doesn't service Model T's any more? For every product out there there are upgrades; and if you're happy with what you have and don't upgrade, then be happy. Your computer is going to keep working just fine.

Snow Leopard is Leopard FIXED and working BETTER while ditching 20% of the Mac installed base!

If you bought the last model iMac G5, Powerbook G4, or the last Powermac G5, I think you'd understand better. All 3 of those are significant investments and not very long ago.

This INTEL snobbyness here is kinda disconcerting considering my G5 can beat some of the early Intel models in many speed tests, yet is not supported by Snow Leopard.

Plus, the few interface element changes in Snow Leopard are ones that Leopard users in general have been clamoring for since day 1.

Finally, the Model T Ford is such a ridiculous comparison, there is not a need to comment further.
 
Snow Leopard is Leopard FIXED and working BETTER while ditching 20% of the Mac installed base!

If you bought the last model iMac G5, Powerbook G4, or the last Powermac G5, I think you'd understand better. All 3 of those are significant investments and not very long ago.

This INTEL snobbyness here is kinda disconcerting considering my G5 can beat some of the early Intel models in many speed tests, yet is not supported by Snow Leopard.

Plus, the few interface element changes in Snow Leopard are ones that Leopard users in general have been clamoring for since day 1.

Finally, the Model T Ford is such a ridiculous comparison, there is not a need to comment further.

They had to drop support for non Intel Mac's eventually! Do you understand that? They are NOT going to support the older Mac's forever, it waste's time developing the OS and means it won't be as good on Intel Mac's as it should be. And Apple obviously want people to be using Intel Mac's. No company is going to support it's older systems forever. Apple just decided this is the OS to stop their support of PPC, and Leopard is fine, so just use that or get an Intel Mac if you really want Snow Leopard.
 
Yeah, me too. I'm wondering how this will work. Will they make you show a receipt?

My bet is they will sell it as an upgrade only DVD (so you won't be able to install the whole System with only this 10.6 DVD). All subsequent Leopard DVD will probably be sold as 10.6 (with the whole System install) for a higher price.
 
Snow Leopard is Leopard FIXED and working BETTER while ditching 20% of the Mac installed base!

If you bought the last model iMac G5, Powerbook G4, or the last Powermac G5, I think you'd understand better. All 3 of those are significant investments and not very long ago.

This INTEL snobbyness here is kinda disconcerting considering my G5 can beat some of the early Intel models in many speed tests, yet is not supported by Snow Leopard.

Plus, the few interface element changes in Snow Leopard are ones that Leopard users in general have been clamoring for since day 1.

Finally, the Model T Ford is such a ridiculous comparison, there is not a need to comment further.

There is a need to comment further, since it seems you're stuck in a time machine of some kind and the forward/back lever is broken.

iMac G5

Release Date:
August 31, 2004

Powerbook G4 Titanium

Release Date:
January 2001

Powerbook G4 Aluminum

Release Date:
January 2003

Powermac G5

Release Date:
June 24, 2003

Welcome to 2009.
 
There is a need to comment further, since it seems you're stuck in a time machine of some kind and the forward/back lever is broken.

iMac G5

Release Date:
August 31, 2004

Powerbook G4 Titanium

Release Date:
January 2001

Powerbook G4 Aluminum

Release Date:
January 2003

Powermac G5

Release Date:
June 24, 2003

Welcome to 2009.
Those aren't the last model date though...
 
Snow Leopard is Leopard FIXED and working BETTER while ditching 20% of the Mac installed base!

If you bought the last model iMac G5, Powerbook G4, or the last Powermac G5, I think you'd understand better. All 3 of those are significant investments and not very long ago.

I have 4 PPC Macs myself so I'm in a similar boat though I do have 2 Intel based Macs.

When you get to the point where there are only %20 PPC Macs the dwindling numbers suggest that it's time to move on. All of these PPC Macs have the opportunity of becoming Intel Mac users and it makes sense that they jump into a platform that is optimized for the current hardware.

Snow Leopard is strong in areas that simply cannot be easily replicated in PPC. Sure PPC supports 64-bit but they L2 caches in PPC Macs are small and there's not the same logic in the PPC that snoop caches to make sure data is not cold or redundant.

I understand Apple's decision and I think many a PPC owner will once they move to Intel Macs.
 
Those aren't the last model date though...

Most of them were discontinued after 3 years. Some after 2. Plenty of time.

This wouldn't be a problem if the architecture was kept the same. But Apple has to change sometime. Some people are going to get caught by it. Even if Apple added another year for support of a platform that was discontinued in '06, they'd still complain that it wasn't another 2 years.

Tech is not like your old sweater that you love and still wear.

Mind you, his investment is still very useful. He just won't be able to upgrade beyond Leopard. I guess that means his computers will no longer power up and do the same tasks he's always used them for. Too bad he's also forgotten that even older Macs have excellent resale value.

I'm sure that if he hadn't invested thousands of dollars in them, and just had one unit with an extra drive and typical software he wouldn't be crying about it as much. :rolleyes:
 
They had to drop support for non Intel Mac's eventually! Do you understand that? They are NOT going to support the older Mac's forever, it waste's time developing the OS and means it won't be as good on Intel Mac's as it should be. And Apple obviously want people to be using Intel Mac's. No company is going to support it's older systems forever. Apple just decided this is the OS to stop their support of PPC, and Leopard is fine, so just use that or get an Intel Mac if you really want Snow Leopard.

If Snow Leopard was a significant upgrade and much different from Leopard itself, your argument would hold a lot more water. But it's not.
It's optimization and bug and interface fixes, much of which could or should be offered at some price for PowerPC users. Obviously this is my opinion and 75% of Mac users disagree with me since most are INTEL Mac owners.

The other thing that bugs me is that we all know Apple has internal PPC builds of Snow Leopard, not to mention probably builds for ARM chips as well in development. Otherwise, there would never have been a surprise INTEL Mac in the first place running Mac OS X.
 
If Snow Leopard was a significant upgrade and much different from Leopard itself, your argument would hold a lot more water. But it's not.
It's optimization and bug and interface fixes, much of which could or should be offered at some price for PowerPC users. Obviously this is my opinion and 75% of Mac users disagree with me since most are INTEL Mac owners.

The other thing that bugs me is that we all know Apple has internal PPC builds of Snow Leopard, not to mention probably builds for ARM chips as well in development. Otherwise, there would never have been a surprise INTEL Mac in the first place running Mac OS X.

Why do you want it so much? Leopard runs great, and the improvements were meant for Intel Mac's. Sure, if it had a whole new UI I could understand you wanting it, but the changes aren't exactly something you notice. Only a few here and there.
 
most are INTEL Mac owners.

The other thing that bugs me is that we all know Apple has internal PPC builds of Snow Leopard, not to mention probably builds for ARM chips as well in development. Otherwise, there would never have been a surprise INTEL Mac in the first place running Mac OS X.

Yes but you're asking Apple to deliver a build that must be tested in QA just as much as the Intel version for %20 of the fanbase on computers at the end of their lifecycle?

I question why a PPC user even worries about Snow Leopard..there are very few user facing features. The UI didn't even change that much. Much ado about nothing.
 
There is a need to comment further, since it seems you're stuck in a time machine of some kind and the forward/back lever is broken.

iMac G5

Release Date:
August 31, 2004

Powerbook G4 Titanium

Release Date:
January 2001

Powerbook G4 Aluminum

Release Date:
January 2003

Powermac G5

Release Date:
June 24, 2003

Welcome to 2009.

The last Powermac G5 was discontinued in August, 2006!

The last Powerbook was discontinued in April, 2006!

The last iMac G5 was discontinued in January 2006!

Some of these machines are LESS THAN THREE YEARS OLD!


Wake up to the facts and stop throwing troll facts out!


(Source: www.Everymac.com)
 
The last Powermac G5 was discontinued in August, 2006!

The last Powerbook was discontinued in April, 2006!

The last iMac G5 was discontinued in January 2006!

Some of these machines are LESS THAN THREE YEARS OLD!


Wake up to the facts and stop throwing troll facts out!


(Source: www.Everymac.com)

Exactly! They stopped making them 3 years ago! Do game consoles still get support 3 years after they stop making them? No. So why should computers, just be happy they HAVE supported PPC for this long and get over it.
 
Excuse me? You may not have noticed, but CPU speeds hit a wall about 5 years ago, and things are not moving quite as fast as you seem to think.

Explain to me how a quad core 2.5Ghz G5 is slow. The new Windows system I just put together last summer was a quad core 2.5Ghz system, and they both(vs Quad G5) do comparable jobs running Handbrake. Only Appletards can call a 64-bit system platform that was top of the line 2.5 years ago "ancient cruft." You do realize that the 32-bit Intel Macs are older than that? In fact, 32-bit Intel architecture is older than PowerPC itself!

I'm plenty aware of both these points. I have 2 degrees in Computer Science, and I've been using Macs for 2 decades or so. Yes, 2005 is about when Moore's Law had a fight with physics and agreed to go multicore instead of faster, so to speak.

What you missed is that I wasn't generalizing all PowerPC machines as "slow" or "ancient cruft". But what percentage of PowerPC users would you suspect have a quad-core G5? I think you're vastly outnumbered by G4 and G3 users, even by single- and dual-core G5 users. Heck, my parents' "new" computer is a 17" G5 iMac.

The reasons behind the Intel switch are many and varied, and speculation thereon is practically futile. But just as you said, 2005 was when speeds hit the wall. Most PowerPC Macs sold before 2005 are appreciably slower than today's multicore Intel machines, at least from a performance perspective. The ones that aren't, like the G5, stand to benefit very little from a 64-bit operating system.

In my opinion, it's just time to move on, as painful as that is for some people. Windows tech specs can be similarly unforgiving of older machines, although on that side you have more options for upgrading the motherboard, etc.

This, you are absolutely correct. G5 would see very little benefit from 64-bit.. In fact, it is interesting that Apple is spinning 64-bit as being 'faster,' when in fact it is usually 'slower.' It's only faster on Intel because (as Apple told us for years) Intel x86 ISA sucks that bad. In fact, I guess the 32-bit Intel Mac owners ought to be warned: It won't be that much faster for you!

Well, yes and no. Yes, 64-bit users will likely see a bigger performance leap, but my guess is that a lot of the refinements are more general than just 64-bit optimizations, so 32-bit users should also experience snappier response times, particularly with the new Finder features, etc. In any case, it is an interesting phenomenon that Intel 64-bit happens to be faster than 32-bit, but it's one reason developers would love to have their users on 64-bit. It's always good to be faster with minimal developer effort!
 
Exactly! They stopped making them 3 years ago! Do game consoles still get support 3 years after they stop making them? No. So why should computers, just be happy they HAVE supported PPC for this long and get over it.

I don't want to keep arguing senseless points.

Obviously a $3000 computer is different than a game console.

I think I'll just stop arguing and let the fanboys take over.

I made all my points.
 
I don't want to keep arguing senseless points.

Obviously a $3000 computer is different than a game console.

I think I'll just stop arguing and let the fanboys take over.

I made all my points.

Ok, answer me this. Do you actually want/need SL? Seriously? Leopard is fine and I wouldn't mind having to continue using it.
 
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