Major gaming news at WWDC: Metal and New games

[Ethosik]

Shortly before Apple abandons Rosetta 2 support if their x64 version is anything to go by.

Why limit PC gaming usage? Power consumption?

Heat and power usage and it being $3,000 but still suffers from micro stutters, shader compilations, poor ports, Windows itself. It adds up. Worst case of this recently (outside of the new games that ran bad) is I wanted to re-play Final Fantasy 7 Remake and from a frame pacing perspective, it runs better on my base PS4. Even better on my PS5.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

One last thing that will make a Windows PC a no-go for me is its virus and malware exposure, which hasn’t substantially improved in decades.

We're still doing this meme? Macs get viruses and malware a lot too buddy. You're not magically immune to bad actors just because you're on a Mac.

It's perfectly fine if you wanna use a Mac because you like the interface more and because it's more tailored to your creative side. I use a Mac for it's interface myself. But I gotta call out false information like "virus and malware exposure, which hasn't substantially improved in decades" despite the fact it has improved. Windows Defender has been the gold standard for user security for years to the point it's available on macOS too through the Microsoft 365 suite. Most people don't even need antiviruses anymore thanks to Windows Defender being so good nowadays.

 

[Ethosik]

We're still doing this meme? Macs get viruses and malware a lot too buddy. You're not magically immune to bad actors just because you're on a Mac.

It's perfectly fine if you wanna use a Mac because you like the interface more and because it's more tailored to your creative side. I use a Mac for it's interface myself. But I gotta call out false information like "virus and malware exposure, which hasn't substantially improved in decades" despite the fact it has improved. Windows Defender has been the gold standard for user security for years to the point it's available on macOS too through the Microsoft 365 suite. Most people don't even need antiviruses anymore thanks to Windows Defender being so good nowadays.

Agreed. Don’t bother it’s a losing battle most of the time. This came up when the whole discussion that Apple should allow side loading on iOS because macs are “just fine”. And I reported I got malware on my Mac a while back but people ignored it.

Anything that lets you install applications from a random website is inherently less secure compared to a closed system. Always be careful what you install especially on windows because they do get more due to marketshare.

 

[diamond.g]

You might be painting with too broad a brush.

Has macOS gaming thus far shown my brush to be too broad?

 

[Irishman]

Has macOS gaming thus far shown my brush to be too broad?

For me, personally? Absolutely, that's why I offered that tiny correction.

I.E. I'm trying really hard not to speak for all of or any of Mac gaming, just my own.

 

[diamond.g]

For me, personally? Absolutely, that's why I offered that tiny correction.

I.E. I'm trying really hard not to speak for all of or any of Mac gaming, just my own.

That is fair. I'd like to not need my PC to game (that is all I use it for) but am still skeptical that it can be ditched.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

I don’t know if I would’ve done like you have, and compared XBox Game Pass more favorably than Apple Arcade, especially since this past week, the XBox chief has finally admitted that XBox has come in 3rd place in the console wars, behind Sony and Nintendo.

We're not talking about the Xbox console. Xbox Game Pass is a crossplatform service between Xbox, Windows, and through Cloud on phones and non-Windows computers. Xbox Game Pass is even available on Samsung Smart TVs.

Xbox's performance in the console market is meaningless when talking about the service platform.

Further, about platform exclusives: when they’re on platforms that you love and play on, they’re the essential lifeblood of the gaming industry, but if they’re on Apple Arcade, they’re trash!

Exclusivity at this day in age is not as prevalent as it was generations ago. Microsoft is putting all their games on PC now, as is Sony after a staggered release on PS5 first. Plus there's a big difference between a game being exclusive to a platform, and a game being exclusive to a subscription service.

With no way to buy the game outright, on a service that is a farcry compared to others, it ultimately does nothing but harm the customer and the software in question. Case in point: A lot of games not too long ago left Apple Arcade's service, with no way to buy them, and when those games left all that saved progress just went poof. All those hours of progress just lost. How do you think the customers feel knowing they paid months for Apple Arcade to play certain games just for all that progress to be for nothing?

 

[MRMSFC]

Isn't it a catch-22? Casual gamers don't care if some random AAA game is on macOS while Capital G gamers do. So with Apple having the Game Porting Toolkit which group are they trying to court?

Capital G gamers hate Apple, that crowd is a no-go.

No, its not.

Its just you not being able to see the bigger picture, and calling it delusional in your view.

Ok, explain how a AAA exclusive would somehow convince the masses to drop their gaming PC for a Mac.

 

[koyoot]

Capital G gamers hate Apple, that crowd is a no-go.


Ok, explain how a AAA exclusive would somehow convince the masses to drop their gaming PC for a Mac.

Why would they considering that Apple has much more user base than PC?

Its about growing the subscription into Apple services. Nobody at Apple cares about whether PC users will switch to a Mac. They care about current users buying in to Apple services, because THATS WHAT WILL LOCK THEM UP TO THE ECOSYSTEM.

Its not about Mac, again. Its about looking holistically at what Apple offers.

iPhone, iPad, AppleTV, Mac, Apple Vision, etc.

Thats what you do not see and think its delusional.

 

[Ethosik]

Why would they considering that Apple has much more user base than PC?

Its about growing the subscription into Apple services. Nobody at Apple cares about whether PC users will switch to a Mac. They care about current users buying in to Apple services, because THATS WHAT WILL LOCK THEM UP TO THE ECOSYSTEM.

Its not about Mac, again. Its about looking holistically at what Apple offers.

iPhone, iPad, AppleTV, Mac, Apple Vision, etc.

Thats what you do not see and think its delusional.

iPhone, iPad, AppleTV and probably Vision Pro doesn’t have the capability of running AAA games. These games can get more than 100GB in sizes. Game engines aren’t built to support it and that is what the majority of games use. You build games for consoles then port it. Even the popular Windows gets late ports and bad ports. How do you think Mac ports would be handled? Exactly how it is now, low on the list.

Nobody wants to play Final Fantasy 16 or competitive Call of Duty or Starfield on their phones. Doesn’t matter how popular the phone is.

 

[koyoot]

iPhone, iPad, AppleTV and probably Vision Pro doesn’t have the capability of running AAA games. These games can get more than 100GB in sizes. Game engines aren’t built to support it and that is what the majority of games use. You build games for consoles then port it. Even the popular Windows gets late ports and bad ports. How do you think Mac ports would be handled? Exactly how it is now, low on the list.

Nobody wants to play Final Fantasy 16 or competitive Call of Duty or Starfield on their phones. Doesn’t matter how popular the phone is.

Mobile gaming will become AAA titles. They have to considering that vast majority of gaming moves towards mobile platforms.

Smartphones, tablets, HANDHELDS, laptops, etc. So we will have to build experiences that are good on mobile, and smaller displays.

P.S. You are looking for reasons WHY it won't happen, instead of looking for reasons why Apple would built their own gaming studio.

 

[Ethosik]

Mobile gaming will become AAA titles. They have to considering that vast majority of gaming moves towards mobile platforms.

Smartphones, tablets, HANDHELDS, laptops, etc. So we will have to build experiences that are good on mobile, and smaller displays.

P.S. You are looking for reasons WHY it won't happen, instead of looking for reasons why Apple would built their own gaming studio.

It’s not going to happen. I cannot see a day where we lose PlayStation and Xbox in favor of games on a 5-7 inch screen. I simply cannot imagine enough people will like playing Spider-Man, Horizon, Starfield etc on such a small device. Less performance than the consoles and a much lower screen size.

 

[koyoot]

It’s not going to happen. I cannot see a day where we lose PlayStation and Xbox in favor of games on a 5-7 inch screen. I simply cannot imagine enough people will like playing Spider-Man, Horizon, Starfield etc on such a small device. Less performance than the consoles and a much lower screen size.

As I have pointed out, there will be less and less games like those you mentioned.

They will cost too much to make. We might get 2-3 AAA titles per year on a particular platform, and the rest will be E-Sport, online, mobile, etc games.

The biggest cost is not... the money, the biggest cost for AAA titles currently is time to develop them. AI might help, Unreal Engine 5 - might help, but how much time saving it will be considering the scale of AAA titles?

 

[diamond.g]

Mobile gaming will become AAA titles. They have to considering that vast majority of gaming moves towards mobile platforms.

Smartphones, tablets, HANDHELDS, laptops, etc. So we will have to build experiences that are good on mobile, and smaller displays.

P.S. You are looking for reasons WHY it won't happen, instead of looking for reasons why Apple would built their own gaming studio.

I wonder if Mobile AAA could be a thing, knowing only the free to play, pay to win games make money for developers.

 

[koyoot]

I wonder if Mobile AAA could be a thing, knowing only the free to play, pay to win games make money for developers.

Has anyone ever imagined how that experience would look like on a mobile device? What would it involve, require?

 

[diamond.g]

Has anyone ever imagined how that experience would look like on a mobile device? What would it involve, require?

Well, it really depends on the game type. @Ethosik is more or less right, a game like FF16 probably wouldn't work well on a mobile device. So maybe they could cut it down like they did FF15. Not sure I would consider it a AAA game though.

Otherwise you are really just looking at live service mobile games like CoD Mobile (which I am not sure I'd call that version AAA either).

 

[Ethosik]

As I have pointed out, there will be less and less games like those you mentioned.

They will cost too much to make. We might get 2-3 AAA titles per year on a particular platform, and the rest will be E-Sport, online, mobile, etc games.

The biggest cost is not... the money, the biggest cost for AAA titles currently is time to develop them. AI might help, Unreal Engine 5 - might help, but how much time saving it will be considering the scale of AAA titles?

Esports alone will make mobile a no go. You need maximum fps and refresh rate displays to combat input lag. Keyboard and mouse too. USB or even PS/2 connected due to input latency with USB.

 

[koyoot]

Esports alone will make mobile a no go. You need maximum fps and refresh rate displays to combat input lag. Keyboard and mouse too. USB or even PS/2 connected due to input latency with USB.

It depends on the game type, and restrictions you could impose. There are genres, like FPS, where flipping the rules could be a game changer for portability of this game

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

Esports alone will make mobile a no go. You need maximum fps and refresh rate displays to combat input lag. Keyboard and mouse too. USB or even PS/2 connected due to input latency with USB.

You want a prime example of this, look at all the attempts to translate fighting games to mobile.

 

[MRMSFC]

Mobile gaming will become AAA titles. They have to considering that vast majority of gaming moves towards mobile platforms.

Smartphones, tablets, HANDHELDS, laptops, etc. So we will have to build experiences that are good on mobile, and smaller displays.

P.S. You are looking for reasons WHY it won't happen, instead of looking for reasons why Apple would built their own gaming studio.

So, your argument is:
- mobile games make more money than traditional AAA titles
- Apple should make mobile games and deploy them across their ecosystem
- something about me “just not getting the VISION maaan”

Clearly I’m not on the same page, I ASSUMED that this thread was about the best way Apple could combat PC gaming, since, that’s their major pitfall in the consumer space.

I’m not sure how Apple making a game studio to make phone games will fundamentally alter their position in the market, since they already make stupid money from phone games. Maybe you want to play Flappy bird on your Mac for some reason?

In any case, that strategy sounds like it changes nothing, so I think I’m safe to ignore it.

 

[MRMSFC]

I wonder if Mobile AAA could be a thing, knowing only the free to play, pay to win games make money for developers.

I would argue fundamentally, no.

Restrictions on the platform make it a no-go. You’re not going to be competitive with the best desktop hardware on a mobile phone, and there’s other considerations like modding and such that add replayability to titles.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

Mobile gaming will become AAA titles. They have to considering that vast majority of gaming moves towards mobile platforms.

Smartphones, tablets, HANDHELDS, laptops, etc. So we will have to build experiences that are good on mobile, and smaller displays.

P.S. You are looking for reasons WHY it won't happen, instead of looking for reasons why Apple would built their own gaming studio.

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT

In the words of David Lynch: Get real

Core AAA titles will never be a thing on mobile for four reasons:

1. Apple and their asses being heavily out of touch with the game industry, and with them forcing everyone to use the App Store and go through App Review, a lot of people do not want to deal with that cancer and would choose to just ignore Apple's platforms and focus on console and PC.
2. The monetization model. Apple steers users away from buying games for $1-20, instead pushing them to "free" games that push in app purchases, since Apple makes a lot more money off of IAP than they do one time purchases of games. As a result paid titles (with the exception of some) don't do the numbers freemium "games" do. Hell most people don't even know some big games even got mobile ports since there's no advertising and Apple buries discoverability of them. Honestly it's worth just another topic of just how bad discoverability is on the Apple App Stores compared to the past when it first started.
3. Most mobile "gamers" just want something quick when they pull out their phone and aren't looking to play something on their phone for hours on end, so core titles are backseated in favor of quick distractions. It's how stuff like Angry Birds got world famous.
4. And lastly the biggest reason: The inputs of a touch screen. A lot of genres just play horribly on a touch screen. And no, buying a Backbone or using a controller is not practical because it defeats the purpose of playing on a phone which is the convenience and portability of it. The only phone that actually feels like it's geared for gaming is the ASUS ROG Phone since that phone comes with actual physical buttons on the back for controlling games, instead of just the touch screen.

But don't take my word on it. Just listen to the late legendary games critic John "TotalBiscuit" Bain as he can explain why core games fail on mobile better than I ever could, in a nice Cynical Brit accent.

God I miss you Totalbiscuit.

 

[Rnd-chars]

Perhaps it’s just me, but the word “mobile“ seems to be getting a bit overloaded here.

Can we define what we mean by “mobile?” Flappy Bird, Free-to-Play/Pay-to-Win, and other games certainly have fallen into this category, but what about games that can be played on the Switch or Steam Deck? Those systems are certainly mobile and have several AAA games, including games that folks in this thread would likely lovely to see on their Macs.

Is “mobile” a set of (largely undesirable) characteristics or a form factor? Or both?

If we’re talking about form factor, then it’s probably helpful to use a word like “portable” instead.

 

[diamond.g]

Perhaps it’s just me, but the word “mobile“ seems to be getting a bit overloaded here.

Can we define what we mean by “mobile?” Flappy Bird, Free-to-Play/Pay-to-Win, and other games certainly have fallen into this category, but what about games that can be played on the Switch or Steam Deck? Those systems are certainly mobile and have several AAA games, including games that folks in this thread would likely lovely to see on their Macs.

Is “mobile” a set of (largely undesirable) characteristics or a form factor? Or both?

If we’re talking about form factor, then it’s probably helpful to use a word like “portable” instead.

Switch is a console. Steam Deck is a PC. So for those two portable is probably a better word to use instead of mobile.

Mobile games have "historically" refered to phone games.

Edit: Handheld is the other genre of console that could be used for the Switch or Deck.

 

[koyoot]

So, your argument is:
- mobile games make more money than traditional AAA titles
- Apple should make mobile games and deploy them across their ecosystem
- something about me “just not getting the VISION maaan”

Clearly I’m not on the same page, I ASSUMED that this thread was about the best way Apple could combat PC gaming, since, that’s their major pitfall in the consumer space.

I’m not sure how Apple making a game studio to make phone games will fundamentally alter their position in the market, since they already make stupid money from phone games. Maybe you want to play Flappy bird on your Mac for some reason?

In any case, that strategy sounds like it changes nothing, so I think I’m safe to ignore it.

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT

In the words of David Lynch: Get real

Core AAA titles will never be a thing on mobile for four reasons:

1. Apple and their asses being heavily out of touch with the game industry, and with them forcing everyone to use the App Store and go through App Review, a lot of people do not want to deal with that cancer and would choose to just ignore Apple's platforms and focus on console and PC.
2. The monetization model. Apple steers users away from buying games for $1-20, instead pushing them to "free" games that push in app purchases, since Apple makes a lot more money off of IAP than they do one time purchases of games. As a result paid titles (with the exception of some) don't do the numbers freemium "games" do. Hell most people don't even know some big games even got mobile ports since there's no advertising and Apple buries discoverability of them. Honestly it's worth just another topic of just how bad discoverability is on the Apple App Stores compared to the past when it first started.
3. Most mobile "gamers" just want something quick when they pull out their phone and aren't looking to play something on their phone for hours on end, so core titles are backseated in favor of quick distractions. It's how stuff like Angry Birds got world famous.
4. And lastly the biggest reason: The inputs of a touch screen. A lot of genres just play horribly on a touch screen. And no, buying a Backbone or using a controller is not practical because it defeats the purpose of playing on a phone which is the convenience and portability of it. The only phone that actually feels like it's geared for gaming is the ASUS ROG Phone since that phone comes with actual physical buttons on the back for controlling games, instead of just the touch screen.

But don't take my word on it. Just listen to the late legendary games critic John "TotalBiscuit" Bain as he can explain why core games fail on mobile better than I ever could, in a nice Cynical Brit accent.

God I miss you Totalbiscuit.

I will respond in one, simple way to you all.

Think about how Apple Vision headsets fit into the category of "mobile", and what they can bring to definition of "Mobile Gaming".

THATS what Apple wants. Experiences that scale from smartphones to headsets, stationary hardware, mobile hardware, etc.

Its not about where gaming was, its about where gaming will be as is with Apple's technologies, always.