Major gaming news at WWDC: Metal and New games

[GrumpyCoder]

Also are you agreeing that your point was a “silly statement”?

My point? No it's not a silly statement.

To be clear, @JordanNZ said they had no idea where this “games break every two years” comes from. You said that idea comes from game developers. What’s the implication there? That games do break every two years.

A silly statement indeed.

As I said, I think no one ever said literally that a game breaks every two years. When people say this as a generalisation, the actual meaning is when Apple updates macOS there are problems involved that can break things (hardware and software) and that such problems are far more common than Windows and Linux. Go and ask multiplatform developers when OS updates come out. They usually won't break a sweat for Windows and Linux, while it's the opposite for major macOS updates and then the end user has to face the consequences in the same way. And everyone finds it very annoying.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

What? You think by saying your post didn’t show games breaking every two years, despite your claim, that I actually meant they do break?

Also are you agreeing that your point was a “silly statement”?

I mean...macOS Sonoma caused Alien Isolation to break. It also caused my AI renderers to break. I had to downgrade back to Monterey because of that.

 

[APCX]

My point? No it's not a silly statement.

You said that games break every two years and then backtracked that they don’t.

As I said, I think no one ever said literally that a game breaks every two years.

Oh they did.

When people say this as a generalisation, the actual meaning is when Apple updates macOS there are problems involved that can break things (hardware and software) and that such problems are far more common than Windows and Linux.

There are numerous problems on Linux. To state otherwise is simply not true. Window does value backwards compatibility more it’s true. Even then there are issues.

Go and ask multiplatform developers when OS updates come out. They usually won't break a sweat for Windows and Linux,

You’re gonna need more than your word to justify a claim like that.

while it's the opposite for major macOS updates and then the end user has to face the consequences in the same way. And everyone finds it very annoying.

Devs were warned for what…ten years about the end of 32 bit. They are free to abandon the software, but if ten years isn’t enough time to do anything then they don’t value the platform anyway.

 

[APCX]

I mean...macOS Sonoma caused Alien Isolation to break. It also caused my AI renderers to break. I had to downgrade back to Monterey because of that.

I mean…you issue with a OpenGL game is not proof enough to sustain your claim. Show me games breaking every two years. Metal games. Provide proof.

 

[diamond.g]

I mean…you issue with a OpenGL game is not proof enough to sustain your claim. Show me games breaking every two years. Metal games. Provide proof.

Out of curiosity, is there a list of games that use Metal (and what version)?

 

[GrumpyCoder]

You said that games break every two years and then backtracked that they don’t.

Care to point me to that quote with a concrete source? I never backtracked on it. 🤷‍♂️

Oh they did.

Source?

There are numerous problems on Linux. To state otherwise is simply not true. Window does value backwards compatibility more it’s true. Even then there are issues.

I never said there are no problems on Linux. 🤦‍♂️

You’re gonna need more than your word to justify a claim like that.

No, I don't. Because everyone working in the industry knows it and we're not talking statistics here.

Devs were warned for what…ten years about the end of 32 bit. They are free to abandon the software, but if ten years isn’t enough time to do anything then they don’t value the platform anyway.

We're not talking about 32 bit vs 64 bit here... we're talking about general OS update issues. I have a feeling you're just on the warrior path for the sake of being a warrior.

 

[galad]

Out of curiosity, is there a list of games that use Metal (and what version)?

Every game released for Mac in the last 6 years more or less.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Every game released for Mac in the last 6 years more or less.

Does that include Vulkan/Metal renderers? Or pure Metal only?

 

[galad]

Both, MoltenVK calls Metal in the end, so I would count it under Metal.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

K, thanks. Just asked for clarification.

 

[APCX]

Care to point me to that quote with a concrete source? I never backtracked on it. 🤷‍♂️

You replied to JordanNZ with that answer. That game devs thought games broke every two years.

Source?

I never said there are no problems on Linux. 🤦‍♂️

You said there were fewer problems with software updates breaking software.

No, I don't. Because everyone working in the industry knows it and we're not talking statistics here.

Everyone. Literally everyone? Is this gonna be something you backtrack on later?

We're not talking about 32 bit vs 64 bit here... we're talking about general OS update issues. I have a feeling you're just on the warrior path for the sake of being a warrior.

Funny enough I have the same feeling about you. Unsubstantiated claims and hand waving.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

You replied to JordanNZ with that answer. That game devs thought games broke every two years.

"You said that games break every two years and then backtracked that they don’t."

So I never said that, I merely replied to a post here. Thanks for clarifying.
There's a massive difference by replying to a post vs writing something as a statement.

You said there were fewer problems with software updates breaking software.

"There are numerous problems on Linux. To state otherwise is simply not true."

I never stated there are no problems on Linux.

You jump to conclusions without even reading and understanding the forum posts correctly. This will go the usual way, discussions until a ban, then come back with a new username and repeat it again. So I'll leave it at the point that I never said these things you claim I did and leave you arguing with others while I focus on more productive things such as research and development. Peace.

 

[jeanlain]

so your legacy apps and games you bought and paid for still work. There's a reason Windows is the gaming juggernaut it is

Backward compatibility is good for games, but not necessarily for other apps if developers never feel the need to update their old and clunky software.

I understand that it has benefits, but backward compatibility also has its drawbacks.

 

[APCX]

So I never said that, I merely replied to a post here. Thanks for clarifying.

It was the implication of what you said. It makes no sense unless you meant that. You seem to have an issue with clarification. As when you thought I said the opposite to what I actually said.

There's a massive difference by replying to a post vs writing something as a statement.

Not in meaning. People don’t state everything when conversing.

I never stated there are no problems on Linux.

You stated there are fewer problems due to updates in Linux than macOS.

You jump to conclusions without even reading and understanding the forum posts correctly. This will go the usual way, discussions until a ban, then come back with a new username and repeat it again. So I'll leave it at the point that I never said these things you claim I did and leave you arguing with others while I focus on more productive things such as research and development. Peace.

If you didn’t claim those things, then really what are you saying? The discussion was around “game breaking changes” occurring frequently. Every two years. You entered the conversation to deny those didn’t happen. Now your denying that.

What exactly are you claiming?

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

Backward compatibility is good for games, but not necessarily for other apps if developers never feel the need to update their old and clunky software.

I understand that it has benefits, but backward compatibility also has its drawbacks.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Simple philosophy that Apple refuses to adopt.

 

[jeanlain]

I expect a lot of things as well, but that's not always realistic. So if something runs perfectly on macOS 13.x, then Apple releases Mac OS 14.x and suddenly things don't work anymore or not as expected then the cause for it is clear. The macOS update broke something that worked before. Of course it is up to the developer then to fix it (because Apple usually won't paddle back on changes they made), but it's unrealistic to expect a day and date patch, especially for older software. It might be fixed or not, in the end the end user has to face the consequences for the OS update.

It's not the same as expecting a modern game to be coded in 64-bits.

And again, I don't recall macOS updates regularly breaking 64-bit games. The only example I have in mind is Mafia III not running on Apple Silicon.

 

[jeanlain]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Simple philosophy that Apple refuses to adopt.

It also means "don't improve it". If Apple hadn't deprecated Carbon, we would still have dozens of apps using it rather than cocoa, hence lacking modern UI elements like rubber band effect in scroll view, spell-checking in text field, dictionary support, and overall responsiveness...

 

[APCX]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Simple philosophy that Apple refuses to adopt.

It was broken. In terms of security and memory, 32bit was a nightmare and in terms of performance on modern hardware, OpenGL was broken.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

If you didn’t claim those things, then really what are you saying? The discussion was around “game breaking changes” occurring frequently. Every two years. You entered the conversation to deny those didn’t happen. Now your denying that.

I never entered the conversation to deny anything. And neither do I deny that now. We're turning in circles and you jump to conclusions and make claims about what I said or did that are not true. I wrote what I wrote, maybe go back to read again. If you or anyone else can't understand it, I'm sorry about it. Just move on then. I find the whole register-warrior-ban-reregister-repeat a little boring and not worth my time.

I understand that it has benefits, but backward compatibility also has its drawbacks.

Indeed, but that's just a case of pick your poison. As a developer I love backward compatibility and hate it as well on a case by case basis. And so do many others.

It's not the same as expecting a modern game to be coded in 64-bits.

No of course not, modern applications (games or otherwise) should always be created with the latest technology in mind until certain requirements exist (less likely but not impossible for games).

And again, I don't recall macOS updates regularly breaking 64-bit games. The only example I have in mind is Mafia III not running on Apple Silicon.

Looks like Sonoma broke performance in Baldur's Gate 3?

https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/16tcqs1

Victoria 3 seems to have problems?
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/game-not-loading-on-macos-sonoma.1600214/

While maybe easily resolved, it seems to be common, no?
I have not tried those two examples recently, I tend to turn to a PC or console when playing games. The only game I play regularly on macOS when I'm not at home is Path of Exile on my MBP.

 

[jeanlain]

While maybe easily resolved, it seems to be common, no?

I don't know. For the game I use, macOS updates generally to reduce performance (they tend to increase performance if anything).

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

It was broken. In terms of security and memory, 32bit was a nightmare and in terms of performance on modern hardware, OpenGL was broken.

Yeah about that...

Developers fear for Mac gaming as Apple deprecates OpenGL support

Game developers are concerned about their games breaking in future macOS releases.

www.pcgamer.com

 

[APCX]

A

Yeah about that...

Developers fear for Mac gaming as Apple deprecates OpenGL support

Game developers are concerned about their games breaking in future macOS releases.

www.pcgamer.com

About that what?

None of that is relevant to my points.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

A

About that what?

None of that is relevant to my points.

You said it was broken, and developers said "no it ain't, do not get rid of it or we're leaving"

 

[galad]

One developer of an indie game said so. Probably they switched to Vulkan on Linux and Windows too in the meantime. You get much better performance and less bugs by using MoltenVK instead of OpenGL on macOS anyway, or even metalANGLE.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

One developer of an indie game said so. Probably they switched to Vulkan on Linux and Windows too in the meantime. You get much better performance and less bugs by using MoltenVK instead of OpenGL on macOS anyway, or even metalANGLE.

It wasn't just one indie dev, but major studios like ArenaNet, as they cited the depreciation of OpenGL to why they dropped Mac support for Guild Wars 2.