Major gaming news at WWDC: Metal and New games

[APCX]

Because the price to performance ratio of a gaming PC a lot better than on a Mac. And there's also the fact you can't upgrade any of the components overtime.

I love Macs too but let's be real if anyone is serious about gaming when you offer them a M2 Pro Mac Mini or a gaming PC at the same price, they're gonna pick the PC everytime.

EDIT: Oh I also forgot Apple's anti-Right to Repair shenanigans which is another factor

No. These are just excuses used to keep a double standard and criticise macs. If you don’t need the absolute best performance to enjoy gaming in a pc, then lacking 4090 performance is not a bar to enjoying gaming on a Mac.

It’s important to remember that literally no one is advising buying a Mac as a gaming only machine. They buy Macs to do many tasks in a more pleasant environment. In that context they are good value.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

No. These are just excuses used to keep a double standard and criticise macs. If you don’t need the absolute best performance to enjoy gaming in a pc, then lacking 4090 performance is not a bar to enjoying gaming on a Mac.

It’s important to remember that literally no one is advising buying a Mac as a gaming only machine. They buy Macs to do many tasks in a more pleasant environment. In that context they are good value.

I wouldn't really call it a double standard to criticize Macs for their lack of upgradability and repairability. That's pretty damn important

 

[APCX]

I wouldn't really call it a double standard to criticize Macs for their lack of upgradability and repairability. That's pretty damn important

Congratulations on not addressing my point I guess. If 4090 performance isn’t necessary on pc, it isn’t on Mac. No extraneous points can cover for that.

 

[GalileoSeven]

As long as devs/publishers are convinced there's little to no profit to be made on the macOS platform (the principle reason you don't see many decent ports anymore), most discussion is still going to be pointless.

Apple could go as far as sticking a 4090 in one of their desktops, sure. That alone won't make people/devs magically start taking them seriously as gaming rigs though and convince them to start porting titles

 

[diamond.g]

Congratulations on not addressing my point I guess. If 4090 performance isn’t necessary on pc, it isn’t on Mac. No extraneous points can cover for that.

It is an aspirational product. A halo item. Of course you can turn down settings to get something playable, where you won't need a 4090.

 

[salamanderjuice]

Congratulations on not addressing my point I guess. If 4090 performance isn’t necessary on pc, it isn’t on Mac. No extraneous points can cover for that.

Gaming performance per dollar. A 4090 isn't "necessary", but for the same price as an M2 Ultra which is the best GPU Apple offers, you can get a 4090. If you only have a grand to spend a $1000 gaming laptop with a 4060 will go a lot farther than an M2 MBA or Mac Mini especially when you factor in storage to hold the games in the first place.

If gaming is your priority then Macs are terrible value.

 

[APCX]

Gaming performance per dollar. A 4090 isn't "necessary", but for the same price as an M2 Ultra which is the best GPU Apple offers, you can get a 4090. If you only have a grand to spend a $1000 gaming laptop with a 4060 will go a lot farther than an M2 MBA or Mac Mini especially when you factor in storage to hold the games in the first place.

If gaming is your priority then Macs are terrible value.

Like I said, no one is arguing for macs as a gaming only, or even primary machine. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand. People want games on the Mac, not for the Mac to be a gaming machine.

Gaming performance per dollar is a made up metric. I might as well say video editing performance per dollar.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

Like I said, no one is arguing for macs as a gaming only, or even primary machine. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand. People want games on the Mac, not for the Mac to be a gaming machine.

People want games on Mac but not for the Mac to be a gaming machine? That's kinda a paradox.

 

[APCX]

People want games on Mac but not for the Mac to be a gaming machine? That's kinda a paradox.

Good lord no… it isn’t.

 

[Ethosik]

I recently overhauled my entire setup after some suggestions and how popular it is for people in Twitch to have a two PC setup.

I have purchased yet another M2 Ultra Mac Studio to record some gaming videos now, which includes video editing more 8+ hour videos I already do but more gaming ones now. You could certainly do this without an Ultra Mac Studio but the video editing is the reason I went with it. I got an Elgato unit and OBS setup. I have triple displays and have Elgato output to my middle monitor.

This unfortunately doesn’t help the Mac gaming scene, but it makes it less annoying where I’m now treating my Windows PC as a console and still have access to my Mac for research/other things while I game. This also helps my gaming PC as three monitors does have a slight impact to your FPS. Now the PC only has one. Luckily I already had a USB switcher with how many computers I have so I just hit a button to change my keyboard and mouse connection. I was also able to move my PC as far away as I could as it gets too hot while gaming and heats up the room.

This being said PC side needs to focus on heat, I can only use my PC for about 2 hours before my room gets too uncomfortable. I have fans going full blast too. This is the one area where I would like more games on Mac. I already play Minecraft, Tomb Raider, No Mans Sky and Factorio on Mac.

All in all, I’m now happier than ever with my setup. I have also limited my PC use more by now downgrading it to “console” type of system. So I’m not dealing with Windows more than necessary. And I still retain the use of my Mac while gaming and have no impact to gaming performance (watching something while gaming for example).

I know many people can’t afford multiple devices and multiple displays, but if you can this setup is quite nice. Everything is automatic, just change HDMI output from HDMI Switcher, and if I’m on PC change the keyboard and mouse. Literally press three buttons when I want to PC game now (third one is to turn the PC on).

 

[Ethosik]

People want games on Mac but not for the Mac to be a gaming machine? That's kinda a paradox.

Nothing wrong with firing up some Minecraft, Factorio or No Mans Sky to game after working for a bit. But I’d still prefer Mac’s to focus more on work. Which is why video editing and After Effects is much better than on my 4090 setup. I don’t want that to flip on the Mac side.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

As we've seen after several recent releases like Starfield, SW Jedi: Survivor, The Last of US Part 1 and Redfall in the current PC gaming era many times not even a RTX 4090 is enough to play fresh new Unity games like Cities Skylines 2.

38 fps at 1080p high and 28 fps at 1440p high, on a RTX 4090!!

1440p
View attachment 2299785

Where are you getting these numbers? I have seen Starfield numbers WAY higher than this for my pathetic 4060 at 1080p...

 

[eltoslightfoot]

This being said PC side needs to focus on heat, I can only use my PC for about 2 hours before my room gets too uncomfortable. I have fans going full blast too. This is the one area where I would like more games on Mac. I already play Minecraft, Tomb Raider, No Mans Sky and Factorio on Mac.

What the heck do you have that is doing this? I have had PCs, custom and otherwise, for well over 2 decades and literally never had this problem.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Gaming performance per dollar. A 4090 isn't "necessary", but for the same price as an M2 Ultra which is the best GPU Apple offers, you can get a 4090. If you only have a grand to spend a $1000 gaming laptop with a 4060 will go a lot farther than an M2 MBA or Mac Mini especially when you factor in storage to hold the games in the first place.

If gaming is your priority then Macs are terrible value.

I literally did this. I got an RTX 4060 with in i7-13700HX 16" laptop. I saved over $2000 from an equivalent 16" MBP (2 TB, 32GB RAM). I could, yes, also get a Mac and just use the laptop for gaming, but why? I can ditch the Mac altogether and just have one device that does both.

 

[diamond.g]

I literally did this. I got an RTX 4060 with in i7-13700HX 16" laptop. I saved over $2000 from an equivalent 16" MBP (2 TB, 32GB RAM). I could, yes, also get a Mac and just use the laptop for gaming, but why? I can ditch the Mac altogether and just have one device that does both.

But the Mac is good at all the other things.

 

[Ethosik]

What the heck do you have that is doing this? I have had PCs, custom and otherwise, for well over 2 decades and literally never had this problem.

13900k and a 4090. It can add a good 5+ degrees to the room. I’m more sensitive to heat so that could be why you don’t have issues. I need my room at a max of 74 degrees fahrenheit. When that system has been on a while gaming it can make my room get to 79. Room fans going full blast can keep it to 77. Still a bit uncomfortable for me.

I didn’t have this issue for two decades either. Only since the 11th gen Intel and 30 series NVIDIA.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

This being said PC side needs to focus on heat, I can only use my PC for about 2 hours before my room gets too uncomfortable. I have fans going full blast too. This is the one area where I would like more games on Mac. I already play Minecraft, Tomb Raider, No Mans Sky and Factorio on Mac.

I'm guessing you don't use water cooling? Because they did deal with this problem a long time ago with the introduction of water cooling.

 

[Ethosik]

I'm guessing you don't use water cooling? Because they did deal with this problem a long time ago with the introduction of water cooling.

I do use water cooling. It’s actually worse than air cooling as when it’s cooler inside the case it’s hotter in the room. So I’ll be going back to air cooling with my next system.

Edit: Sorry if this lead to confusion, I’m referring to the room temperature not the computer temps. With water cooling it does better to dissipate heat and that heat goes somewhere (room)

Ultimately if they don’t address the power and heat issues I’ll just get a portable AC unit to help.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

But the Mac is good at all the other things.

I agree if you need raw battery life or want absolutely zero fan noise. Maybe you need a MacOS only app. Other than that? The gaming laptop I have can do all the things. But I am cross platform on all of my apps.

 

[MRMSFC]

I wouldn't really call it a double standard to criticize Macs for their lack of upgradability and repairability. That's pretty damn important

As much as I love rtr, I think it’s far more accurate to say that Apple’s stance on it is more often used as a justification post hoc.

As for the cost factor, if barebones performance is all you’re after then Macs are not cost effective, I agree. But there’s other factors to consider, as I’m sure you’re aware.

 

[Homy]

Where are you getting these numbers? I have seen Starfield numbers WAY higher than this for my pathetic 4060 at 1080p...

Those are benchmark scores for Cities 2, not Starfield and the link is in the post right above the screen shot.

 

[Irishman]

They're late to the RT party, even on phones. At a certain point you have to keep up, better now than when games starting skipping your platforms because they only support RT.

Apple has never been first to a market, nor first with innovations, so I seriously challenge your assertion that 3 generations in (since the RTX 2080 Super) makes Apple late to the RT party.

In fact, that makes them characteristically on-time, especially on a mobile device.

And, finally, which games are skipping the Mac because they only support RT?

 

[Irishman]

They're the fourth. Samsung Exynos 2200 has hardware RT too. That's basically everyone who makes a halfway decent phone SoC...

Fourth to market, but the highest FPS...

Now, you were going to tell me how the best performance doesn't matter because it's Apple, or because the benchmark is biased, or for reasons.

 

[Homy]

Because the price to performance ratio of a gaming PC a lot better than on a Mac. And there's also the fact you can't upgrade any of the components overtime.

I love Macs too but let's be real if anyone is serious about gaming when you offer them a M2 Pro Mac Mini or a gaming PC at the same price, they're gonna pick the PC everytime.

EDIT: Oh I also forgot Apple's anti-Right to Repair shenanigans which is another factor

That wasn’t the subject of my discussion. You’re talking in relative terms comparing performance per dollar while I’m talking in absolute terms saying the same statement about not needing a high-end computer for enjoying games because ”graphics aren’t everything” is true for all platforms, from PC and Mac all the way down to Nintendo Switch. You don’t go and buy a Mac Mini for gaming but you can certainly enjoy games even on a Mac Mini if you already own one. You don’t need M2 Max/Ultra for enjoying games and even less if ”graphics aren’t everything”.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

That wasn’t the subject of my discussion. You’re talking in relative terms comparing performance per dollar while I’m talking in absolute terms saying the same statement about not needing a high-end computer for enjoying games because ”graphics aren’t everything” is true for all platforms, from PC and Mac all the way down to Nintendo Switch. You don’t go and buy a Mac Mini for gaming but you can certainly enjoy games even on a Mac Mini if you already own one. You don’t need M2 Max/Ultra for enjoying games and even less if ”graphics aren’t everything”.

You do need M2 Max if you want a high framerate. A lot of those games in that video didn't even hit 60 FPS on M2. Hell Borderlands 3 he had to tone it down to medium and 1080p just to get it to something playable and even that didn't hit 60.