Massive quake hits Japan 9.0 Magnitude

[puma1552]

[JEDI]Yes. All the fission stopped almost 72 hours ago.[/JEDI]

I shouldn't even be taking the bait from someone who's posting with such a jackass style, who doesn't even know hydrogen is flammable (helium my ass), but here's a nuclear expert and fellow telling it to you, exactly like it is:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2011/03/13/stevens.grimston.japan.nuclear.cnn.html

[JEDI]Yes. Radiation levels detected outside the Japan plant remain within legal limits.[/JEDI]

I don't think you understand how minute that still is. I don't think you understand that it still would need to be magnitudes higher to even be remotely harmful.

[JEDI]Move along.[/JEDI]

---------




As was quoted in my quote of the quoted article you quoted:



You want to be pedantic about 'front door' and 'outside the plant'?

I think we all already know without requiring puma's three degrees in atom science that the further away from it you are the less radioactivity there is. Hence the word 'evacuate'.

What the hell are you talking about? You don't even make any sense.

 

[rasmasyean]

you think it would be 'pretty cool' to relocate 130 million people to some 'barren area' in a foreign land when there is absolutely no reasons for it?
and you think it would be "practical"????

Obviously, it wouln't be "all at once" and these types of things never happen in one single "foreign land". But history is wrought with many resettling of peoples, the Jews is just one example. This actually happens a lot for "unnatural" disasters like war and stuff.

If this situation blows up more and more, heck, humans haven't even dealt with such a potential disaster outcome before. It's actually purely "unnatural" at it's roots. There isn't any natural deposit of refined radioactive uranium/plutonium/whatever that we've encountered on earth before. This is purely man-made and is not supposed to exist. I mean, what is there to do in such a case? I know GM, Microsoft, Motorola et al may have a field day if the Japanese just disapeared, but hey, there's added value elsewhere that many nations would value in having their human and physical assets close.

 

[0098386]

Obviously, it wouln't be "all at once" and these types of things never happen in one single "foreign land". But history is wrought with many resettling of peoples, the Jews is just one example. This actually happens a lot for "unnatural" disasters like war and stuff.

If this situation blows up more and more, heck, humans haven't even dealt with such a potential disaster outcome before. It's actually purely "unnatural" at it's roots. There isn't any natural deposit of refined radioactive uranium/plutonium/whatever that we've encountered on earth before. This is purely man-made and is not supposed to exist. I mean, what is there to do in such a case? I know GM, Microsoft, Motorola et al may have a field day if the Japanese just disapeared, but hey, there's added value elsewhere that many nations would value in having their human and physical assets close.

I've been observing this thread, and slightly educated from it too (thanks nuclear people!). But I had to jump in here - is this a joke? If it is you're taking it too far.

 

[puma1552]

Am I hearing the expert om TV right? He's saying the seawater being pumped in is just *around* the core container to stop it from overheating and melting. It's not actually *into* the core to cool it down.

So basically these fire engines are just pumping water onto the outside of a red hot oven to keep it from melting while the oven still burns brightly.

Do you have the slightest inkling of the what the process of heat transfer is or what a heat transfer coefficient is? Do you have an inkling of what a heat exchanger is, or how this process is similar?

Do you think the reactor is a jar of cookies with a lid you can just pop open and stick a hose down?

Seawater. I hear that's effective against Triffids too..

Any idea why the boron is being added?

You Puma and Sushi keep trying to play this down because you 'know how a nuclear reactor works', yet every day your "nowt trouble a t'mill" assurances are just hammered by a new event. An analogy in my mind right now would be architects insisting while we're watching smoke billowing from the towers on our screens that the girders were fireproof-coated so there's no risk of them melting and the buildings collapsing...

Our assurances are getting hammered by new events? Last I checked there wasn't a disaster or catastrophe. I woudn't say anyone's been getting "hammered".

Oh lord, you think 9/11 was a hoax too, right?

Sorry, but the rest of us know how govts and corporations work. They lie. They cover their own arses. They are incompetent.

Might need an extra layer of tinfoil on that hat of yours.

leaving the nuclear situation discussion aside for now: interestingly even a town which actually had very expensive tsunami protection wall was hit since it simply wasn't nowhere high enough
the most important point now will be to get the infrastracture running again because those fuel/electricity/food shortages are now turning to be really problematic

Tsunami wall, where'd you read that? There are literally trillions of TONS of force behind a tsunami, who would try to build a lousy wall to combat that? Are you sure they weren't mistaking a levy for a "tsunami wall"?

2 years exposure a day = 730 years worth of normal background exposure per annum. That's okay then, not as bad as I first calculated. No breast cancer there. Bring the pregnant women in. I'll drink milk from that cow, eat eggs from them chickens. We all get that flying a plane. Not.

You're really being out of line.

Did you even read the previously posted article? Please do.

No, of course he didn't. If he tried to, he surely didn't understand it.

I have no idea why these sorts of examples are constantly used to allay peoples' concerns. Do you actually believe people actually think getting an xray is as harmless as washing with soap? We all see the technician/dentist/nurse go stand behind the protective screens when they use these things while telling us "it's fine, won't hurt you" and we all think "horse manure it won't" as the machine goes click click..

I think you're a very paranoid individual, it may be prudent to put on that tinfoil hat and wait this one out in the cupboard while the engineers of the world solve this one.

What do you mean *if* we have a meltdown. Are you denying there has been a meltdown at all? I'll wager with you that there is not only just a meltdown, but actually *three* active meltdowns currently in progress right now.

Edit - my beilief is based on reading stuff like this (from the BBC) about the hitherto quiet reactor #2. While all the focus has been on the exploding #1 and #3, they've also been pumping seawater into #2 as well. So not only is that yet another wtf? moment, we also have a wtf? squared that the fire engine truck ran out of petrol to keep the pump going so the rods were exposed. So I hope you can understand what I mean about not having confidence that they are even abe to stay on top of the situation let alone control it.

wtf? x wtf? does not equal wtf^2.

I'm guessing you also don't understand that a meltdown is not synonymous with catastrophe. You do realize you can have a partial--or even an entire meltdown--while doing zero damage to the environment or any people, right? After all, you said it yourself--we may be having a partial meltdown right now, but nobody's dying.

Even allowing for the possibility of a complete core meltdown (an unlikely event given the current situation, though not impossible), the structures were designed to contain such an event.

Exactly. There are numerous layers between the fuel and the atmosphere, so even if a couple layers become compromised, you can still avoid a catastrophe.

The problem with your attempts to downplay this situation, like all the other attempts in this thread so far, is that every time you get hammered by actual events on the ground.

And you've been getting hammered by every single iota of science and fact and physics thrown your way, and have addressed literally zero of them, just citing "big governments lie, run for the hills! JEDILEVEL13PURPLEWIZARDROBESPELLCAST!!! I haven't seen you try to take down any of the nuclear experts posted, or address a single bit of science, all you do is spit the same rhetoric, that we are all getting "hammered" by the thus-far lack of disaster/death/catastrophe that you are running for the hills from.

So rather than fear-mongering appearing to be unwarranted, it's actually the other way around. The fear-mongers have yet to be proved wrong while the down-players' positive predictions have been proved wrong every step of the way.

You've yet to be proven wrong? Really? And we've been proven wrong on every count about how there is not a disaster and likely won't be a disaster, and certainly won't be a Chernobyl or anything remotely like it?

All workers not drectly involved in the actual pumping have now been evacuated from Fukushima nuclear plant. They're running. So everybody else should too.

We call those safety protocols. Familiar with ISO 14001 or ISO 9001? The people are running? Looks to me like they showed up to work like any other day and were told to leave. I certainly didn't see anyone running out of the plant on NHK TV today. I saw a bunch of people walking out like they would any other day.

I don't even know why I waste my time.

 

[Don't panic]

Obviously, it wouln't be "all at once" and these types of things never happen in one single "foreign land". But history is wrought with many resettling of peoples, the Jews is just one example. This actually happens a lot for "unnatural" disasters like war and stuff.

If this situation blows up more and more, heck, humans haven't even dealt with such a potential disaster outcome before. It's actually purely "unnatural" at it's roots. There isn't any natural deposit of refined radioactive uranium/plutonium/whatever that we've encountered on earth before. This is purely man-made and is not supposed to exist. I mean, what is there to do in such a case? I know GM, Microsoft, Motorola et al may have a field day if the Japanese just disapeared, but hey, there's added value elsewhere that many nations would value in having their human and physical assets close.

i can't believe i am even answering this, and i am bewildered by the fact that you might actually be seriously thinking what you are writing.

anyway, even the worst case scenario -a complete meltdown of all four reactors- is not even remotely close to the apocalyptic pictures you have in mind.
'japan' is not going to 'blow up' or to be reduced to a barren wasteland forever.

in the worst case scenario (which is very unlikely to occur), a small area will be heavily contaminated and a larger area will be moderately or lightly contaminated.
tens or hundreds of people will get sick in the short term, and more would be at risk in the long term, a lot of people will have to evacuate to a safer distance from the reactor, and the economic cost of the clean up (and the recostruction in the tsunami-devastated areas) would be tremendous.

but how you go from there to "japan is history" is mindboggling.

 

[awmazz]

.

 

[takao]

Tsunami wall, where'd you read that? There are literally trillions of TONS of force behind a tsunami, who would try to build a lousy wall to combat that? Are you sure they weren't mistaking a levy for a "tsunami wall"?

on the television i'm afraid:
they showed archive footage of the same place before the tsunami and then typical amateur footage of it getting hit
the construction looked like a 3-4 meter high reenforced-concrete wall on top of a usual levy
perhaps it's purpose was only protection against smaller tsunamies or to 'buy' more valuable seconds for evacuation or to get people into safer locations

i have heard of such constructions in Japan before so i didn't listen that closely ... hopefully it worked and saved a few hundred lives by delaying it a little bit, i don't know


regarding fuel rods being layered away:
*those in the actual reactor: yes
*but i somehow question (IMHO) the design decisions to store the spent fuel rods directly in the same building but outside of the containment:
according to the cut away charts the only thing between the fuel rods and the atmosphere is the superstructure above the containment and the direct cover of the basin
on reactors 1+3 the superstructure blew away because of a hydrogen explosion leaving one barrier directly over the basin behind and teared holes into the structure of reactor 4 having the same effect
what i have asking myself something regarding the cooling layout in regards to the spent fuel basins: the media/translation isn't clear if or how the cooling on those are potentially connected to the reactor cooling system and it's back up systems
in the shut down reactors 5+6 the temperature of the basin water has raised up to 84° from the usual 30-40 because of a cooling problem

do have any information in regards to how those cooling systems are connected to reactor cooling ? because it seems confusing that those basins are now causing so much problems now

(i suspect that the spent fuel storage thing is handled differently on newer reactor designs)

 

[rasmasyean]

i can't believe i am even answering this, and i am bewildered by the fact that you might actually be seriously thinking what you are writing.

anyway, even the worst case scenario -a complete meltdown of all four reactors- is not even remotely close to the apocalyptic pictures you have in mind.
'japan' is not going to 'blow up' or to be reduced to a barren wasteland forever.

in the worst case scenario (which is very unlikely to occur), a small area will be heavily contaminated and a larger area will be moderately or lightly contaminated.
tens or hundreds of people will get sick in the short term, and more would be at risk in the long term, a lot of people will have to evacuate to a safer distance from the reactor, and the economic cost of the clean up (and the recostruction in the tsunami-devastated areas) would be tremendous.

but how you go from there to "japan is history" is mindboggling.

Well, not that I hope he's right, but words like these from people of high up places don't give any comfort.

Europe's energy commissioner Guenther Oettinger dubs Japan's nuclear disaster an "apocalypse,"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110315/wl_afp/japanquakelivereport

 

[skunk]

Come to think of it...it wouldn't be too bad if Japan had to mass evacuate because of contamination. I mean, that place might eventually like blow up and flood at some point in the future right? It looks like it's on the verge of happening actually.

That would be pretty cool if they evacuated now. I mean, where would they go you may ask? I think they would mostly come the the US. I mean, we sort of helped them build their country up after WWII and we've always had pretty strong ties. Our economy is similar too.

Hey, we'll take Toyota, and Sony, and Mitsubishi...and heck, whatever can fit on the barges. I think it would be pretty symbiotic too as we use a lot of their crap anyway so might as well bring it all home. They have like the best manufacturing in the world and the US can use some of that today. We have lots of barren land all over the place that can be used for industry and Japanese ppl have the money to build here, rather than in the expensive cramped up island of theirs. Jobs for all! woot!

Are you drunk?

 

[Hisdem]

Are you drunk?

Looks like it. And BTW, I don't think the Japanese people would think leaving their homeland and going to the USA is a good idea. Not saying they don't like the US, but generally, just generally, people tend to care more about their own countries and cultures than about the American ones. Just saying.

 

[iJohnHenry]

Are you drunk?

I thought he was suffering from extreme youth.

 

[Don't panic]

Well, not that I hope he's right, but words like these from people of high up places don't give any comfort.

Europe's energy commissioner Guenther Oettinger dubs Japan's nuclear disaster an "apocalypse,"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110315/wl_afp/japanquakelivereport

yes, but it's a figure of speech.
however bad a realistic worst case scenario would be, it will not require permanent evacuation of anything but a few tens of square miles, if that.

for example, this is not going to be as bad as chernobyl by any stretch of imagination, since the design and built of the plant is much safer, and this uses water for cooling instead of graphite which is itself flammable. And in chernobyl, only the immediate surroundings and another area where the fallout was massive are still off-limits.

In addition, this plant is on the seashore, so about half of the contamination will be dispersed into the ocean.

on a separate note, i can confirm takao's post that many japanese cities have built "tsunami walls" including one of the cities shown in one of the videos (where you can clearly see the water coing over a wall and waterfalling into the city. It might have been inefective in a tsunami this massive, but I am sure they can work on smaller ones. One of the California nuclear power plant on the coast also has a similar 25 feet wall.

I also agree with takao on the bizarre design of putting the spent rods in a pool on top of the reactor and without any containment other than the cooling water and the roof.
it seems clearly a design flaw which hopefully will be/has been taken care of in other designs and fixes

 

[rasmasyean]

Looks like it. And BTW, I don't think the Japanese people would think leaving their homeland and going to the USA is a good idea. Not saying they don't like the US, but generally, just generally, people tend to care more about their own countries and cultures than about the American ones. Just saying.

I've found that most people don't care as much about their country as people believe (or say they do). They and their families well being come first above all else in almost ALL cases of people. They only care about the "country" when it benefits them in a way that they know (or are used to).

Not that I hope there is, but if there is nuclear a threat to their health, or their (future) children's health, you better bet they will move along to better pastures. How far...is the big question only time will answer.

As for "moving to the US" one of the reasons why the US is so "advanced" is not because of age old traditional Americans' feats, but the immigrants who were given the opportunity to migrate here to "escape" their country. You didn't think we invented rockety, did you? What about nuclear power? E=mc2 itself was discoverd by someone who really didn't love his country! And a whole slew of other things...like the early computers. Mostly all of this was by immigrants who left their country to go to "the land of opportunity". Whether you can say this is truly still "the land of opportunity" is still arguable...heck, maybe it's actually China like some ppl believe. But it's a wonder because if you follow some of the highest tech research and developments (often military in nature), the Ph.D.s that are involved usually have CHINESE names! Go figure...

 

[Hisdem]

I've found that most people don't care as much about their country as people believe (or say they do). They and their families well being come first above all else in almost ALL cases of people. They only care about the "country" when it benefits them in a way that they know (or are used to).

Not that I hope there is, but if there is nuclear a threat to their health, or their (future) children's health, you better bet they will move along to better pastures. How far...is the big question only time will answer.

As for "moving to the US" one of the reasons why the US is so "advanced" is not because of age old traditional Americans' feats, but the immigrants who were given the opportunity to migrate here to "escape" their country. You didn't think we invented rockety, did you? What about nuclear power? E=mc2 itself was discoverd by someone who really didn't love his country! And a whole slew of other things...like the early computers. Mostly all of this was by immigrants who left their country to go to "the land of opportunity". Whether you can say this is truly still "the land of opportunity" is still arguable...heck, maybe it's actually China like some ppl believe. But it's a wonder because if you follow some of the highest tech research and developments (often military in nature), the Ph.D.s that are involved usually have CHINESE names! Go figure...

Yes of course, if there is real risk for the people, I have no doubt they will prefer to leave. I just said all of that because the previous comment sounded very much like "they will come to the US because it is the best". May have been just how I interpreted it, oh well. In any case, I just really hope that a few months from here, or even a year from here, people in Japan, and people who go to Japan can feel the same way I felt after going to Chile this year. It's all past, everyone is back to living their normal lives. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem this is going to end this way...

 

[takao]

according to current reports the roof of reactor 4 broke apart/collapsed and two workers are considered missing

also the fire which was put out earlier seems to have started again

 

[Don't panic]

i can't find a good source for timed updates.
all things seem to go together and i can't really tell what's new and what's not.

one thing seemingly emerging as really problematic is the spent fuel pools.
I can't understand how it is possible that the design puts it in the worst possible place (in terms of management during a crisis) and without ANY containment protection.
it's crazy.

puma, could you explain the rationale?

 

[takao]

i can't find a good source for timed updates.
all things seem to go together and i can't really tell what's new and what's not.

one thing seemingly emerging as really problematic is the spent fuel pools.
I can't understand how it is possible that the design puts it in the worst possible place (in terms of management during a crisis) and without ANY containment protection.
it's crazy.

puma, can explain the rationale?

afaik it's more designed as a holding pool for fuel rods to be put in and those just recently taken out

the problem seems to be that reactor 4 has been shut off for maintance works, thus many of the normal fuel rods seem to have been taken out of the reactor and put into the basin ... but that is only as far as i heard

information flow has been rather limited because there was night in japan so i suspect the next hours we will get more informations/press releases again

edit: tepco is reporting readings of 300-400 mSv in the broken structure of reactor 4 which makes it difficult to control the fire and restore the water level in the pool

 

[Don't panic]

afaik it's more designed as a holding pool for fuel rods to be put in and those just recently taken out

the problem seems to be that reactor 4 has been shut off for maintance works, thus many of the normal fuel rods seem to have been taken out of the reactor and put into the basin ... but that is only as far as i heard

information flow has been rather limited because there was night in japan so i suspect the next hours we will get more informations/press releases again

that would make a bit more sense.
does that mean that reactors 1-3 do not have spent rods in the holding pool?
what about the decommissioned reactors 5-6? i read somewhere that those could become an issue too, although at this point i am sure there is a lot of garbage infos out there.

still, it doesn't make any sense to me that such a potentially dangerous step is basically designed without ANY redundancy in safety protocols.

now they are considering dropping water from helicopters to re-flood the pool, through the hole in the roof. seems a bit desperate

 

[RedTomato]

Continuous live timestamped text based updates:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
(may be a different link tomorrow, but check on the front page for the current link to live updates)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/15/japan-earthquake-and-tsunami-japan
(link changes each day, check on front page for the current day's link)

BBC is slightly slower but more accurate (but they beat the Guardian when announcing the 4th explosion).

 

[RedTomato]

Sorry doublepost but different topic now:

Wikileaks: Japan warned over nuclear plants
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ver-nuclear-plants-WikiLeaks-cables-show.html

WikiLeaks cables show Japan was warned more than two years ago by the international nuclear watchdog that its nuclear power plants were not capable of withstanding powerful earthquakes, leaked diplomatic cables reveal.

Why does this not surprise me? Japan nuclear has a long history of coverups and poor operational procedures - including mixing nuclear fuel in a bucket and being surprised when it went critical.

Even the UK here has a long history of blunders and covering up - look at Windscale, later renamed Sellafield in a PR move. Some of the radiation leaks here were only revealed decades later.

Building reactors to a 1 accident in 1000 years standard of protection, as pushed by the industry PR, is just not good enough. Given 100 reactors, that equates to a serious issue every 10 years on average, and we already have far more than 100 reactors globally.

 

[Sydde]

Somewhere I think I read that Fukushima Dai-ichi was just a few months away from final retirement of the entire facility after twice its designed lifetime. But there almost certainly must be spent fuel rods in all the basins, since fuel changes are done at least as often as 18 months and spent fuel takes two to four years to cool enough to be safely moved offsite. The fuel still contains enough U-235 to produce considerable heat from just decay, but internal pollutants reduce its ability to contribute in a reactive core. Presumably, spent fuel is not considered to be able/likely to generate a critical event (neutron flux is too compromised by pollutants) so it would not require such sturdy containment as would a reactor.

To me, this operation looks slightly slipshod, almost like brinkmanship. Pushing nuclear systems even half way to their limits seems like too risky.

 

[skunk]

I've found that most people don't care as much about their country as people believe (or say they do). They and their families well being come first above all else in almost ALL cases of people. They only care about the "country" when it benefits them in a way that they know (or are used to).

What evidence do you have for this beyond the purely anecdotal?

Not that I hope there is, but if there is nuclear a threat to their health, or their (future) children's health, you better bet they will move along to better pastures.

You think there wasn't a nuclear threat in 1945?

As for "moving to the US" one of the reasons why the US is so "advanced" is not because of age old traditional Americans' feats, but the immigrants who were given the opportunity to migrate here to "escape" their country. You didn't think we invented rockety, did you? What about nuclear power? E=mc2 itself was discoverd by someone who really didn't love his country! And a whole slew of other things...like the early computers. Mostly all of this was by immigrants who left their country to go to "the land of opportunity".

Usually either because their country was in ruins or because they were under threat. Neither of these things applies in Japan. There has been a major natural catastrophe, possibly more to come, but if they managed to rebuild and thrive after the wholesale destruction of WW2, they will manage this time, too. If your thesis were true, then Japan, Germany (and most of the rest of Europe) would be depopulated wasteland. Some people clearly feel heavily invested in their local cultural values.

 

[rasmasyean]

Sorry doublepost but different topic now:

Wikileaks: Japan warned over nuclear plants
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ver-nuclear-plants-WikiLeaks-cables-show.html


Why does this not surprise me? Japan nuclear has a long history of coverups and poor operational procedures - including mixing nuclear fuel in a bucket and being surprised when it went critical.

Even the UK here has a long history of blunders and covering up - look at Windscale, later renamed Sellafield in a PR move. Some of the radiation leaks here were only revealed decades later.

Building reactors to a 1 accident in 1000 years standard of protection, as pushed by the industry PR, is just not good enough. Given 100 reactors, that equates to a serious issue every 10 years on average, and we already have far more than 100 reactors globally.

None of this stuff is ever "perfect". I'm sure the US has had it's share of "coverups" and "blunders" too even with all the "red tape" this country has. It's just that most people were keeping an eye on the part where they purposely blew them up!

No system is completely failproof. There's no such thing. You weigh the risk and then you accept them when it goes south.

 

[Don't panic]

Continuous live timestamped text based updates:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
(may be a different link tomorrow, but check on the front page for the current link to live updates)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/15/japan-earthquake-and-tsunami-japan
(link changes each day, check on front page for the current day's link)

BBC is slightly slower but more accurate (but they beat the Guardian when announcing the 4th explosion).

thanks, this is useful

But there almost certainly must be spent fuel rods in all the basins, since fuel changes are done at least as often as 18 months and spent fuel takes two to four years to cool enough to be safely moved offsite. The fuel still contains enough U-235 to produce considerable heat from just decay, but internal pollutants reduce its ability to contribute in a reactive core. Presumably, spent fuel is not considered to be able/likely to generate a critical event (neutron flux is too compromised by pollutants) so it would not require such sturdy containment as would a reactor.

but the problem is that if they dry up, they heat up to the point of ignition and then you have a highly contaminant fire on your hands (to the point they can't even get close enough to stick one hose into the pool).

how can they NOT design for the possibility of coolant failure in the holding basin and put it also within a containment vessel? especially if, as you imply, there are some spent rods in it pretty much at any time.

 

[Apple OC]

how can they NOT design for the possibility of coolant failure in the holding basin and put it also within a containment vessel? especially if, as you imply, there are some spent rods in it pretty much at any time.

They just did not predict a tsunami of this scale causing the situation we are now faced with.

Unfortunately it takes something like this to correct mistakes moving forward. That being said ... this will get fixed.

This Nuclear Disaster has now been confirmed as the worst since Chernobyl and is far from being resolved.

I wish the heros working on this all the best.