MBP keyboard article

[john123]

Ok cool - was wondering if I was missing some secret blog or website or something. Thanks!

I doubt you are. I have a couple pretty senior friends at Apple. You want to make a conversation take an awkward turn into silence? Ask them anything about what's going on there. That culture is pretty strong. As I'm pretty sure you're alluding to, a lot of people make guesses and act like they know something.

Thx and most definitely male last time I checked

Issue I personally have is the dilution of the MBP from being a serious profession tool to the predominantly consumer based appliance it's become today, very much a downward slope.

Apple is well vested in it's consumer base, yet equally Apple continues to disregard and price gouge customers at every possible instance! more amusingly some simply lap it up

Personally I feel I simply point out obvious issues, however some are compelled to fiind reason to continuously rebuke and defend Apple in the face of clear issues, and even at the detriment of their own work...

Reality is defending a multi billion dollar company that clearly abuses it's position is simply laughable. Monopolies have never served the consumer and never will...

I refuse to watch yet another keynote with yet another Apple exec procrastinating about how Apple values it's professional audience, and yet churns out ever more diluted consumer garbage. Apple was once a pinicle of innovation, today Apple is company that has to fall back on pathetic excuses as to why it's incapable of producing professional grade hardware

I simply expect more, nor will I accept the current rubbish, Apple needs to step up their game, or stop ********ing about it's Pro commitment as its currently little more than a joke.

Personally I appreciate we'll enginnered hardware and software as it's an aspect of my profession , nor am I biased to any specific brand...

Some lead, some challenge, some follow, simple as that...

Q-6

Eh, I'm not convinced it's that much different today than it used to be. I stopped watching keynotes when they started pushing the "Megahertz Myth." That was the biggest crock of horse manure. Technically true? Sure. Real-world? For 80%+ of users, no way. But that's just marketing, and there's nothing new there.

My frustration is, as I mentioned previously, simply with the tradeoffs. In the past, I've considered the tradeoffs to be worthwhile because the new advantages were so significant. By contrast, I see negligible benefits to an even thinner and lighter laptop.

The sad thing is that we could have had a great laptop that incorporated USB-C and legacy ports, and kept that design around for a few years. A Magsafe, USB-A, and USB-C on the left, a pair of USB-Cs on the right, and a keyboard with a bit more travel (and less clacking) would have been great. That would have been the best of all worlds, but alas, we come back to the thinness point you've made.

I'm not as negative as you are on Apple (nor am I as positive as many others commenting in this thread), but I do agree with you that this obsession with thinner and lighter is to the detriment of power and flexibility.

 

[ryannel2003]

All this back and forth, people making excuses for an unreliable keyboard design, trying to deflect the real issue by questioning failure rates, recommending users buy an external keyboard, etc. The noise in this thread is unbearable.

Apple just needs to get this whole mess fixed. It needs to stop charging insane amounts of money for replacements for current models, and ensure that future models don't have the same problem.

Well I for one am not defending a unreliable keyboard as I've had NO issues with mine since I bought it last year. That however doesn't excuse the fact that lots of people are having problems and to me that is unacceptable considering how expensive these computers are. Quite frankly the Apple tax seems a bit silly these days as competitors are offering some really beautiful looking hardware.

Too bad I enjoy OS X so much but to be quite honest I've had more hiccups with this system than any before it. I started with an eMac so I've been an Apple user for nearly 15 years and it's obvious they now devote themselves to being the iPhone company. The Mac has been on the back burner for years and it's starting to show.

 

[bluecoast]

I mean, I don't doubt he is pretty influential within the company, but I think there's an over tendency to think thinner design = Ive's doing. I'd imagine it's more the case that it's a company wide ethos to make smaller, lighter, faster products - that's pretty much been the standby enhancements for years now. Schiller is in charge of marketing, so of course he's going to want to tout a new more compact but still more powerful computer, iPad or iPhone too. Again, I think it's decisions taken by the company executive as a whole, not everyone pulling for larger products to facilitate better x,y,z features, but Ive putting his foot down and saying 'no we're making it thinner, or else'.

Yeah good points. I’m sure a lot of this is team driven on the exec front.

Similarly, Animojis are probably something that the hardware and software people love as it is an application that feeds into AR going forward. Marketing probably love it as it’s a goofy thing that they can demo.

So I’m absolutely not an industrial designer or heardware designer. Not do I have any inside knowledge.


However...

What I’m getting at though is they’ll be a design vision that Ive wants to achieve and in a world where (so I understand) every mm inside the casing really is counting now, it’s going to... Well, create issues like the keyboard we’re discussing on this thread!
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Well I for one am not defending a unreliable keyboard as I've had NO issues with mine since I bought it last year. That however doesn't excuse the fact that lots of people are having problems and to me that is unacceptable considering how expensive these computers are. Quite frankly the Apple tax seems a bit silly these days as competitors are offering some really beautiful looking hardware.

Too bad I enjoy OS X so much but to be quite honest I've had more hiccups with this system than any before it. I started with an eMac so I've been an Apple user for nearly 15 years and it's obvious they now devote themselves to being the iPhone company. The Mac has been on the back burner for years and it's starting to show.

It probably now wouldn’t take much more than Windows to start offering a good UX for a good many Mac users to jump ship.

Whether MS can actually create a version of Windows 10 that is tasteful and harmonious is another question!

But... They really could.

Fluent is looking a lot better and they can now ‘retrofit’ Fluent to .net and Win32 apps.

They’re probably x1 or x2 major updates away from making Windows pretty good from a UX point of view.

IF they have the will to do it.

 

[ryannel2003]

I might have literally spoken too soon as I finished typing that last paragraph my space bar started becoming inconsistent. Blew around the keys and it's become stuck on the right side a bit and it's harder to press down. I already have Apple sending me a box to have the computer sent it. My warranty expires in two weeks.

 

[Falhófnir]

Yeah good points. I’m sure a lot of this is team driven on the exec front.

Similarly, Animojis are probably something that the hardware and software people love as it is an application that feeds into AR going forward. Marketing probably love it as it’s a goofy thing that they can demo.

So I’m absolutely not an industrial designer or heardware designer. Not do I have any inside knowledge.


However...

What I’m getting at though is they’ll be a design vision that Ive wants to achieve and in a world where (so I understand) every mm inside the casing really is counting now, it’s going to... Well, create issues like the keyboard we’re discussing on this thread!

Yeah I would absolutely say in this instance they have overreached to produce a meaningful reduction in size - I can see why they wanted to, it’s a material improvement over the previous generation, but they seem to have made quite a few big sacrifices in order to get there. Probably more so than with previous generations (though as with all things YMMV). Again though, how much of that was making the machine fit Ive’s design language, and how much was just marketing/ other consideration driven is questionable...

 

[bluecoast]

I might have literally spoken too soon as I finished typing that last paragraph my space bar started becoming inconsistent. Blew around the keys and it's become stuck on the right side a bit and it's harder to press down. I already have Apple sending me a box to have the computer sent it. My warranty expires in two weeks.

That sucks. Hope it is fixed in time.

As a MBP 17 owner, I’m thinking that I could easily be in your shoes... We all could. Hence this thread. Good luck.

 

[maflynn]

[MOD NOTE]
Some posts were removed as they were bickering. Please stay on topic.

 

[bluecoast]

Yeah I would absolutely say in this instance they have overreached to produce a meaningful reduction in size - I can see why they wanted to, it’s a material improvement over the previous generation, but they seem to have made quite a few big sacrifices in order to get there. Probably more so than with previous generations (though as with all things YMMV). Again though, how much of that was making the machine fit Ive’s design language, and how much was just marketing/ other consideration driven is questionable...

Really agree.

I think also the design language of the iPhone and iPad really informed the MB 2015 and MBP 2016.

The MB 2015 in particular feels like the answer to the question:

‘If we had first invented the the iPad Air and then wanted to build a laptop, what would it look like?’

But this immediately causes problems as the macs need more powerful performance than the iOS devices - so more heat & bigger batteries etc and its more of a struggle to fit all of that in.

Also Apple is stuck with using quite a few generic PC components which aren’t built to their precise specifications, as they’re now used to with iOS devices.

All this then meant that Apple painted themselves into a corner.

And Intel...

Who probably also promised chips using their new process in time for the MBP and then the MB 2016s but didn’t deliver so Apple was faced with launching machines originally designed for a next gen processsor.

You can see why Apple moving to ARM - just like iOS they’ll be able to make use of bespoke components for the vast majority of the machines. And control when they are ready to move to production!

And presumably/hopefully ARM processors will have a good thermal vs performance ratio.

All these should add up to really great machines.

I can’t help thinking though that Apple should’ve started the move to ARM sooner and stuck with more conservative cases for its laptops until they could go fully ARM.

 

[ryannel2003]

Well I haven't noticed any issues with the keys so far since I blew around them but I'm still going to send it in and see what happens. I also had them note a random screen flicker I've had that only appeared recently.

 

[john123]

Well I haven't noticed any issues with the keys so far since I blew around them but I'm still going to send it in and see what happens. I also had them note a random screen flicker I've had that only appeared recently.

That usually is a non-issue if it happens once or twice. And when it's intermittent like that, it usually passes diagnostics.

Note my use of "usually" twice. Fingers crossed nothing is wrong--or that if it is, they turn it up!

On an unrelated note, one thing I'm curious about is whether there are any preventative measures we can take to minimize the likelihood of keyboard issues. Some common sense things (like not typing while eating) seem prudent. But is there anything else, or are we talking about an issue that just comes down to manufacturing failure on some percentage of units?

 

[macjunk(ie)]

That usually is a non-issue if it happens once or twice. And when it's intermittent like that, it usually passes diagnostics.

Note my use of "usually" twice. Fingers crossed nothing is wrong--or that if it is, they turn it up!

On an unrelated note, one thing I'm curious about is whether there are any preventative measures we can take to minimize the likelihood of keyboard issues. Some common sense things (like not typing while eating) seem prudent. But is there anything else, or are we talking about an issue that just comes down to manufacturing failure on some percentage of units?

Wondering if a laptop cooler will help? Some analysis of the issue pointed at heat as the probable cause.

 

[lec0rsaire]

I understand the frustration that some people have with the keyboard. I don’t understand all the hate towards the MBPs. Apple couldn’t wait any longer and they had to use Skylake. Intel doesn’t support LPDDR4 with Skylake and Kaby Lake. Apple has no choice! 4 TB3 ports is definitely pro territory. The SSDs are fantastic. You can drive 2 5K displays or 4 4K displays. You can use eGPUs, the fastest external storage available. The list goes on. The only cons are the mediocre, compared to Pascal, AMD GPUs and the lack of 32GB RAM.

Complaining that these machines are not pro because they don’t have native Type A ports and a built in SD card slot are ridiculous. There are workarounds for both. Look towards the future, not the past. A lot of people are also pissed that they can’t soup up the machine for a fraction of the cost. If you’re a Pro user making money, then you really should be able to afford a $3k machine. People want to get base models for $1300 and load them with 32GB and high capacity SSDs for as little as possible and that’s just not going to be possible with Apple’s notebooks anymore.

It’s even more ridiculous when people trash the MBP but praise the MBA that has a terrible, pixelated display for 2018, old CPUs, slower 1600 MHz RAM, no dGPU, (Intel HD 5000 and 6000 are a joke), no TB3 nor USB 3.1 gen 2, no TouchID, slower WiFi and slower SSDs (the MBPs have PCIe 3.0 with 8 GT/s. No 15” option either which is a must if you want good performance.

 

[maflynn]

Complaining that these machines are not pro

I agree, these are fantastic machines that many pros use. The problem is people have in mind what pro means and apply that narrow definition which does a disservice. The new MBP is not perfect, but the asthetics, weight and power of the computer is great.

As for the keyboard, there are people who hate the keyboard because the way it feels, a group that tolerates it, and then those who like/love it. Within those groups are folks dealing with the failiure of the keyboard design.

Depending on what site you read, you get a different perspective. For instance iMore is largely dismissing the issue outright, Rene Ritchie on one of the latest MacBreak Weekly podcasts (I forget if it was last week's or the week before), stated that keyboard failure rate is no different then pre-2016 keyboard failures. Where as we see a high occurance of people posting about their failure rate here at MR. I actually saw someone post in the iMore forum that he doesn't believe that the keyboard has any issues or failures what so ever. I'm not sure how he/she can state that when the thread was about someone getting rid of the MBP because his keyboard failed multiple times and there's now a class action suit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[antonis]

To my experience the problem is real. 4 out of 4 friends and myself owning mac laptops from the entire range (MB 12" , MBP 13" up to MBP 15") are having dysfunctional keys with the 2nd gen butterfly keyboard. 2 out of the 4 people replaced the entire keyboard. The problem returned after a couple of months. The machines are being used everyday for work with a decent amount of typing (some for linux cmd, other for developing) so they are not lightly used.

I'm typing right now from a 12" MB (2017 model) with the Enter key stuck (I have to press hard for it to work and the sound is not the normal "clicky" one). Cleaning the keys the way apple describes in their site didn't help. The specific mechanism seems to be very prone to failure.

 

[jeyf]

i looks like the apple keyboard failures are going to a class action and a run through the US Courts?
just in time for the 2018 MB release.

looks like another financial quarter where apple will be buying back their stock

 

[john123]

I understand the frustration that some people have with the keyboard. I don’t understand all the hate towards the MBPs. Apple couldn’t wait any longer and they had to use Skylake. Intel doesn’t support LPDDR4 with Skylake and Kaby Lake. Apple has no choice! 4 TB3 ports is definitely pro territory. The SSDs are fantastic. You can drive 2 5K displays or 4 4K displays. You can use eGPUs, the fastest external storage available. The list goes on. The only cons are the mediocre, compared to Pascal, AMD GPUs and the lack of 32GB RAM.

Complaining that these machines are not pro because they don’t have native Type A ports and a built in SD card slot are ridiculous. There are workarounds for both. Look towards the future, not the past. A lot of people are also pissed that they can’t soup up the machine for a fraction of the cost. If you’re a Pro user making money, then you really should be available to afford a $3k machine. People want to get base models for $1300 and load them with 32GB and high capacity SSDs for as little as possible and that’s just not going to be possible with Apple’s notebooks anymore.

It’s even more ridiculous when people trash the MBP but praise the MBA that has a terrible, pixelated display for 2018, old CPUs, slower 1600 MHz RAM, no dGPU, (Intel HD 5000 and 6000 are a joke), no TB3 nor USB 3.1 gen 2, no TouchID, slower WiFi and slower SSDs (the MBPs have PCIe 3.0 with 8 GT/s. No 15” option either which is a must if you want good performance.

Some of the things you cited are indeed rather silly. I think framing it in terms of "professional" versus "not professional," as you point out many have done on here, doesn't make a lot of sense.

On the second paragraph, though, I think the argument is that if you're already paying a lot for a professional grade machine, you shouldn't have to use "workarounds." I'm not sure how much of it is a money thing or an inability to afford thing. I've noticed people tend to assume that about others.

As for looking toward the future, there's a fine line between building toward the future and leaving current uses in a bit of a bind. And, as noted, the issue really is that it's a choice that didn't have to be made. Skip the drive toward thinner and lighter, and everyone could have had their cake and had it too.
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Depending on what site you read, you get a different perspective. For instance iMore is largely dismissing the issue outright, Rene Ritchie on one of the latest MacBreak Weekly podcasts (I forget if it was last week's or the week before), stated that keyboard failure rate is no different then pre-2016 keyboard failures. Where as we see a high occurance of people posting about their failure rate here at MR. I actually saw someone post in the iMore forum that he doesn't believe that the keyboard has any issues or failures what so ever. I'm not sure how he/she can state that when the thread was about someone getting rid of the MBP because his keyboard failed multiple times and there's now a class action suit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Unfortunately, not a single one of the reviews and opinions I've read has engaged in (what I would consider) a rigorous statistical analysis. Either the metrics have been screwy, and/or there's been significant selection bias.

 

[jpep]

Dont think they redesigned the keyboard for the new laptops being released in a few months, It's unfortunate as I am in the market to buy a laptop.

 

[maflynn]

a rigorous statistical analysis.

That's because Apple has not released specific sales of the MBP (I don't beleive they split out MBP sales from the other models), and we have no hard numbers on failures. The class action suit may bring some clarity in how expansive the issue is

 

[BigMcGuire]

As for looking toward the future, there's a fine line between building toward the future and leaving current uses in a bit of a bind. And, as noted, the issue really is that it's a choice that didn't have to be made. Skip the drive toward thinner and lighter, and everyone could have had their cake and had it too.

Is that avatar Terry Tate? Hah. Loved those videos!

Would have paid more for a thicker chasis, longer battery life, and no problem keyboard most definitely! Agreed.

 

[john123]

Is that avatar Terry Tate? Hah. Loved those videos!

Would have paid more for a thicker chasis, longer battery life, and no problem keyboard most definitely! Agreed.

YES!!!!! No one ever recognizes it! This makes me so happy, especially on a Monday morning. You kill the joe, you make some mo! That ain't new, baby!

And yeah, we're on the same page. Oh well. Coulda woulda shoulda, right?

That's because Apple has not released specific sales of the MBP (I don't beleive they split out MBP sales from the other models), and we have no hard numbers on failures. The class action suit may bring some clarity in how expansive the issue is

While Apple's usual tight-lipped nature does make...well, everything...more challenging, it's not a difficult or even uncommon exercise, assuming the failure rate is non-trivial as many claim. It's just a bit labor intensive. All that's required is to recruit and then follow a cohort of purchasers over time. Undoubtedly this kind of systematic analysis (and more) is exactly what some of these law firms will be paying analytics firms to do.

 

[sputnikBA]

To be fair, it’s not just an Apple secrecy thing.

I don’t think there is any major company that will willingly give out those numbers unless compelled to by law. Even if they were leaked by a whistleblower to WSJ or NYT or something, the most they would say is that they won’t comment on them because it’s commercially sensitive followed up by how high their customer SAT is.

 

[TC_GoldRush]

I might have literally spoken too soon as I finished typing that last paragraph my space bar started becoming inconsistent. Blew around the keys and it's become stuck on the right side a bit and it's harder to press down. I already have Apple sending me a box to have the computer sent it. My warranty expires in two weeks.

Well I haven't noticed any issues with the keys so far since I blew around them but I'm still going to send it in and see what happens. I also had them note a random screen flicker I've had that only appeared recently.

All these issues with the keyboard on these newer Apple Laptop models! Really makes me not want to purchase a new apple laptop.
I cannot believe that Apple of all companies would release such a faulty keyboard system!
Kinda reminds me of the Poly-carbonate Apple Laptops with their cracking/chipping issue... Apple changed their design flaws there, shouldn't be any different with these.

 

[john123]

All these issues with the keyboard on these newer Apple Laptop models! Really makes me not want to purchase a new apple laptop.
I cannot believe that Apple of all companies would release such a faulty keyboard system!
Kinda reminds me of the Poly-carbonate Apple Laptops with their cracking/chipping issue... Apple changed their design flaws there, shouldn't be any different with these.

Hey hey hey. Don’t be dissing my G3 Pismo!

 

[jerryk]

Depending on what site you read, you get a different perspective. For instance iMore is largely dismissing the issue outright, Rene Ritchie on one of the latest MacBreak Weekly podcasts (I forget if it was last week's or the week before), stated that keyboard failure rate is no different then pre-2016 keyboard failures. Where as we see a high occurance of people posting about their failure rate here at MR. I actually saw someone post in the iMore forum that he doesn't believe that the keyboard has any issues or failures what so ever. I'm not sure how he/she can state that when the thread was about someone getting rid of the MBP because his keyboard failed multiple times and there's now a class action suit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

IMHO, iMore and Rene in particular, is blind to anything negative about Apple.

 

[maflynn]

IMHO, iMore and Rene in particular, is blind to anything negative about Apple.

No question, I enjoy the podcast, and in many cases Rene's insights, but when the topic is about an issue, he can really do some logical backbends to justify apple