That's you buddy, just dropping those truthbombs all day long.
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MBP keyboard article
- Thread starter maflynn
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That's you buddy, just dropping those truthbombs all day long.
Only truth here is that these keyboards are a complete mess. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm the one that loves typing on them, and I really do enjoy the 'feel' of it. Much more then I enjoyed those on previous MBPs.
But in reality, they aren't reliable at all. I also dislike gimmicky touchbar, but because I love MacOS I'm even willing to put up with it. But keyboard is my main tool (developer), and if keyboard isn't reliable, well....
I'm also waiting for new MBP.
Currently on P51s Lenovo, great machine all around. And keyboard is the best you can get on any laptop. Period.
But Windows 10 is a mess when compared to MacOS.
So if they can fix the keyboard, I'm back. If not, then really it's time for me to give up on Apple, since I use iMac Pro, MB 12, etc. It's hard to combine that with Windows, since I'm a heavy keyboard shortcut users. So when I return to Windows 10, I tend to use Mac shortcuts for some time, and those fail on Windows of course. Soon I switch my brain to Windows thinking of things, but then I return to Mac...
Well, it's a mess. If new MBP fails, iMac Pro is going to my work mate, I'm gonna go for Corsair One Elite. And P51s will stay until Lenovo updates their P line of workstations, and MB is gonna be replaced with Lenovo X1 Carbon.
But I really do hope that Apple makes a effort this time and fixes this idiocy that they've made.
I'm the one that loves typing on them, and I really do enjoy the 'feel' of it. Much more then I enjoyed those on previous MBPs.
But in reality, they aren't reliable at all. I also dislike gimmicky touchbar, but because I love MacOS I'm even willing to put up with it. But keyboard is my main tool (developer), and if keyboard isn't reliable, well....
I'm also waiting for new MBP.
Currently on P51s Lenovo, great machine all around. And keyboard is the best you can get on any laptop. Period.
But Windows 10 is a mess when compared to MacOS.
So if they can fix the keyboard, I'm back. If not, then really it's time for me to give up on Apple, since I use iMac Pro, MB 12, etc. It's hard to combine that with Windows, since I'm a heavy keyboard shortcut users. So when I return to Windows 10, I tend to use Mac shortcuts for some time, and those fail on Windows of course. Soon I switch my brain to Windows thinking of things, but then I return to Mac...
Well, it's a mess. If new MBP fails, iMac Pro is going to my work mate, I'm gonna go for Corsair One Elite. And P51s will stay until Lenovo updates their P line of workstations, and MB is gonna be replaced with Lenovo X1 Carbon.
But I really do hope that Apple makes a effort this time and fixes this idiocy that they've made.
I tried the 2016 keyboard, and thought it horrible.
I then tried the 2017 keyboard - and liked it.
I think both the 2017 keyboard, and the 2015 keyboard, are bad designs. Because neither has water resistance. My wife's HP Elite notebook can take a cup of coffee spilt onto it. Mac's keyboards cannot. That to me, is a more serious fault than a percentage of keyboards failing.
Certainly un-reliability is not good enough and it seems that the new design is not as reliable as the old one. I assume Apple will get it right eventually, but for me, the biggest failure in both designs is the intolerance of a water spill.
As far as the thin form factor - Apple tried this thin format years ago, with the Titanium. I had one of those, and it was a crap design - there wasn't enough titanium, so the unit flexed over the CD drive which stopped working properly. Then it split on the corner near the screen hinges.
So then Apple went to Aluminum or aluminium Alloy, and made it thicker. Those were much better. And the machines grew in size.
Now my 2017 is a powerhouse unit that doesn't feel much bigger than my 13" Air. I really value the Air's size and the 2015 were clunky compared to the Air. So I really value the size and weight of the new form factor, and I also think the USB 3.1 and T3 ports are totally awesome. I don't want to broadcast that I am carrying a powerful computer, and the thin design means I can squeeze the unit into a leather thin carry I use that fitted the Air.
I think its a dream to put in the long throw old keyboard and still keep the current thinner form factor. But sure - if Apple could do it, go for it ... but, please make it take a water spill. That is more critical than a failed keyboard IMO, because water will fry the whole computer and its your fault. With a keyboard, its not your fault and also, it doesn't wreck the rest of the computer.
So Apple - bring out a better keyboard, and make it take a coffee spill.
And if your in a country that will not protect you from a keyboard faulty design - then get the keyboard insured. Build that extra cost into your decision making when considering an Apple notebook.
incidentally I am brutal to my keyboards - I do push ups on my stubby fingers, can still do that despite my extra weight being 64 years old. But I wreck keyboards, I hit them too hard it seems. But no problems for me with mine that I've had for 9 months I think ... and I don't even clean the keyboard. I guess I should really ...
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So you have a 2017 MBP 13' for 9 months and have been typing on it really hard? I'm a speed typist and I wreck keyboards as well (heavy usage) and am wondering if I'm taking it too easy on this keyboard (I also have a 2017 MBP TB 13'). I bought this laptop to use it, not baby it, but with all the press of keyboard failures, I've been using external keyboards when I can (the screen actually makes this possible unlike with my 11' MacBook Air). Really liking this Anker bluetooth keyboard (white).
Thanks for taking the time to write out your post - it was a good read.
I've replaced many Dell laptop keyboards from coffee spills
in my previous job in IT (I've never spilled water/coffee on a keyboard yet myself). One thing Dell did well - it was easy and cheap to replace laptop keyboards back in the day (10+ years ago).
Got my MacBook Pro back today. I have received the new keyboard with symbols on the control and option keys.
Thanks for your post.
I just posted to say that my notebook is the 15" one, with the Radeon Pro 560 GPU.
I don't think the keyboard is much different to yours.
A good idea about the external keyboard though I guess ... I need a new one for my Classic Mac Pro 2010 5.1 twin CPU. Its on to its third keyboard ... the Apple ones keep failing for me ... I think I have to get an Apple one, because the 3rd party ones don't allow the option key and some other keys to alter the start up disk options. Some keyboards have track pads on them now too - I like that idea.
Just look at the 2011 15" MBP dGPU fiasco, I even fiercely defended Apple myself
Q-6
Yep - I bought an Early 2011 MBP 15" the day they were released, and my GPU lasted until May of 2016. The last week, it's started to show signs of failing on the replacement board, which, of course, is now out of warranty. Otherwise the machine is great.
I'm very torn - when it dies, I did plan to replace it with another MBP, but between the high price of the 15" units, and the horrible keyboard, I don't want to get another machine that's a ticking time bomb. And with no ability to upgrade, I would have to buy a 1TB drive out of the gate, which is way overpriced.
Apple is making it hard to stick with them.
I know how you feel, I'm in a similar boat. I'm looking to replace my aging 2012 machine. Myself and my kids are deeply enmeshed in the Apple ecosystem and so getting a MBP is almost a no brainer. Yet the fact that keyboard is what it is.
I run hot and cold on the upgradeability of a laptop. On paper, I see the advantages, in real life I've never upgrade a laptop, yet not able to upgrade ram or storage can be a major factor.
I like the Dell XPS 15". It's priced a lot cheaper then the MBP, and its upgradeable. I've seen reports about inferior customer support, and coming from apple, that's something that concerns me. I'm ok with Windows, as I feel it offers more customization and flexibility, but on the downside, I lose out on the shared ecosystem, for instance I use iMessage all the time on my Mac to send messages. Usuing a different product isn't feasible, so its imessage or nothing it seems.
Dell support isn't bad. I've been using Dell for the last 15+ years.
Recently (few months ago), my little brother ordered an XPS 13. Arrived in a thin box that had obviously been abused by the shipping company. Took two+ weeks to get to him after ordering it so he was really looking forward to it -- only to have the screen shattered thanks to shipping.
He contacted Dell support and it took quite a bit of work to get them to see it wasn't HIM that cracked the screen, it came that way from shipping. After several "investigations" that took a few days, they agreed to send him a replacement - that took another 2.5 weeks but started the counter for him to "return" the old device right away.
He contacted Dell again only to have them say there was no record of the transaction after not getting anything in the mail for a week. After handfuls of additional contacts over several days, they finally found his return order, sent a new return box, and everything worked out - but within DAYS of the deadline to return the broken laptop.
They could barely speak English (it was all done through typing) and their reluctance was alarming.
Dell has been good to me personally. I have a heavy past in IT and using Dell. Their on site support contracts are great. Once you get to know these guys they trust you and take your word for it when you say something is broken - I've had them send me CPUs, motherboards, hard drives without question - but this is at the small business level.
Recently (few months ago), my little brother ordered an XPS 13. Arrived in a thin box that had obviously been abused by the shipping company. Took two+ weeks to get to him after ordering it so he was really looking forward to it -- only to have the screen shattered thanks to shipping.
He contacted Dell support and it took quite a bit of work to get them to see it wasn't HIM that cracked the screen, it came that way from shipping. After several "investigations" that took a few days, they agreed to send him a replacement - that took another 2.5 weeks but started the counter for him to "return" the old device right away.
He contacted Dell again only to have them say there was no record of the transaction after not getting anything in the mail for a week. After handfuls of additional contacts over several days, they finally found his return order, sent a new return box, and everything worked out - but within DAYS of the deadline to return the broken laptop.
They could barely speak English (it was all done through typing) and their reluctance was alarming.
Dell has been good to me personally. I have a heavy past in IT and using Dell. Their on site support contracts are great. Once you get to know these guys they trust you and take your word for it when you say something is broken - I've had them send me CPUs, motherboards, hard drives without question - but this is at the small business level.
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I read an article the other day that said Microsoft is working to bring iMessage to Windows. But it was not sure Apple was willing to let them do that.
I have actually had nothing but positive customer support experiences from Dell. I upgraded the Bios a few years ago and it quit halfway through and bricked my system. I called, they had me open it up and do some troubleshooting over he phone, then had me send it in fro repair and it had a quick turn around time. No hassle whatsoever.
My daughter's Dell had the hard drive go and they sent me a replacement hard drive no questions asked. And I was able to swap it myself in about 5 minutes.
My daughter's Dell had the hard drive go and they sent me a replacement hard drive no questions asked. And I was able to swap it myself in about 5 minutes.
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Many people want to bring iMessage over, but since its proprietary, Its up to apple to permit it, or do it themselves. I see Apple ensuring that they offer services and products that highlights the power and uniqueness of their platform and as such I'm skeptical in that we'll see this.
I'm a big fan of Lenovo laptops. My only faults with Lenovo laptops is lousy 16:9 screens, especially on P series, and those are supposed to be workstation laptops. And they are. Besides 16:9 screens.
I like where Microsoft and Huawei are going with 3:2 screens. Even better then 16:10 on macbooks.
But I simply can't justify to myself to pay 3000 euros for Surface Book when Windows 10 is such a mess. On April I had to update my p51s, and it was a nightmare. Update took more then 8 hours, and then it failed in the last step. A lot of troubleshooting hours later, I had to install that update manually.
Lost a lot of time for nothing.
If only some of the stuff I need where available on Linux, all my problems would have been solved, and I would be able to abandon MacOS forever. But as much as I love my p51s (way better hardware, ports and keyboard then on any mac), I am simply looking to get back to MacOS. That is if Apple doesn't screw up again. In that case, I will simply stick to p51s
I like where Microsoft and Huawei are going with 3:2 screens. Even better then 16:10 on macbooks.
But I simply can't justify to myself to pay 3000 euros for Surface Book when Windows 10 is such a mess. On April I had to update my p51s, and it was a nightmare. Update took more then 8 hours, and then it failed in the last step. A lot of troubleshooting hours later, I had to install that update manually.
Lost a lot of time for nothing.
If only some of the stuff I need where available on Linux, all my problems would have been solved, and I would be able to abandon MacOS forever. But as much as I love my p51s (way better hardware, ports and keyboard then on any mac), I am simply looking to get back to MacOS. That is if Apple doesn't screw up again. In that case, I will simply stick to p51s
I have tried a few times to replace my 2015. It still works perfectly, and the track record for the 2016 (especially) and the 2017 MBP line is very questionable. I'm sitting tight for now.
This seems like such good advice...
But even with AppleCare, you're without your laptop for a minimum of several days, possibly longer. What if you're traveling, or about to travel? You get my drift...
Also, FWIW, I don't really understand the recommendation to blow dust INTO the machine. My practice for many years has been to use a vacuum to suck dust OUT OF the keyboard. You do need to use proper tools. Many years ago I sucked several keys off a Dell XPS laptop, and learned a lesson that I observe carefully still today.
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I was an extremely loyal Dell owner and user on the Windows side of my life, going all the way back to their first machines. I wrote Dell off completely after a series of horrible experiences, as bad as or worse than your brother's, back in 2013/2014. I don't foresee buying another Dell, ever. Very sad...
You make a good point. But, the keyboards shouldn't be failing at all. $100 or $700 makes no difference. We pay a premium price and we expect a premium product.
Absolutely... but when the price of a keyboard replacement is more than an entire mid-class laptop, then something is definitely wrong and even the most stupid consumer and Apple fanboy (myself included) can see that.
Imagine let's say Mercedes premium cars needing a steering wheel replacement every 30.000km (15.000 miles). Material fatigue, bad design, something. **** happens. But the replacement steering wheel costing one third of a new car, because the entire passenger cabin (seats, dashboard, floor) needs to be replaced as well - just because of that steering wheen failure.
Don't get me wrong, if the keyboard replacement was $100, it would still be a huge FAIL. But it would hurt much, much less.
Imagine let's say Mercedes premium cars needing a steering wheel replacement every 30.000km (15.000 miles). Material fatigue, bad design, something. **** happens. But the replacement steering wheel costing one third of a new car, because the entire passenger cabin (seats, dashboard, floor) needs to be replaced as well - just because of that steering wheen failure.
Don't get me wrong, if the keyboard replacement was $100, it would still be a huge FAIL. But it would hurt much, much less.
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You are right, but look at the bright side. If this continues, soon a day will come when the smallest of failures will get us a brand new laptop and possibly an upgraded version, because nothing is serviceable and everything needs to be replaced.
I can't believe that to replace JUST the keyboard, Apple will also replace the touch bar and the trackpad and the battery! Talk about a green company producing so much unnecessary waste?
You need to think carefully about this part of your post: "JUST the keyboard"
Not JUST they keyboard, but if only ONE key fails, they need to replace everything you already mentioned!
Think differently
100% with you on that, the squarer aspect ratios are so much nicer to work on. I even find 15.6” 16:9 screens to be vertically lacking (usable but not as comfortable) one of the biggest downsides to a lot of windows MacBook alternatives!
But they have that super efficient robot that recycles everything...Apple is the greenest ... Apple is the bestest...
I'm not sure why you and HenryDJP with his "liking" of every single post of yours continue to attack Q-6. I think he makes reasonable points. The conclusions he draws from his points don't agree with yours, but because you keep insisting that your own viewpoint is reasonable and balanced, that leaves you with the conclusion—incorrectly—that he must be a biased Apple hater.
"Greed" is not a human attribute ascribed to a company. Using the Apple dictionary, it's "intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food." Companies have exactly that: an intense...desire for...wealth. That's an artifact of being a public company, which means its #1 charge is building shareholder value. Different companies have different philosophies about how best to do that (e.g., short run vs long run, customer service vs efficiency, etc.). You acknowledge this, but then you talk about other pieces (e.g., environmental and social policies) as if they are necessarily altruistic in nature. That may be the case. It may not be the case. I personally think both Facebook and Google provide a lot of social good—just not in the same proportions are areas as Apple chooses to do so. Both of those companies get terribly maligned, and I say this as someone who curses Facebook regularly for various other reasons.
You'll notice I have agreed with about 99% of your substance so far. Right? But then you conclude with, "Thinking they don't care about all of this is wrong." There's simply inadequate evidence out there to support either conclusion. Unless you have a bug in Uncle Timmy's office and the board room, you can't conclude that they "care" or "don't care." Is it all part of a coherent corporate strategy, or is it altruism? The truth is that no one ones. Heck, even they might not know. You'd be surprised how many corporate execs drink their own Kool Aid enough that they start believing it.
Q-6 tends to be a little more pessimistic than I am about Apple, and you tend to be a lot more optimistic than I am about Apple. I wish you'd both give each other a little more time to digest what the other is saying and consider the possibility that maybe--juuuuuuust maybe--they're right or at least have valid points. In his case, he wouldn't be here if he didn't care about Apple and have strong feelings based on his long time Apple experience.
You agreed with him and others on the keyboard because it matched your own personal experience. Anecdotal experience is a poor basis for drawing inferences and conclusions, and the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
in conclusion, I'll cite your most recent quote, which is what put the bee in my bonnet:
You did this a few weeks ago in a thread with me. There's a pattern. You can't simultaneously insist you're a reasonable person who continues to update their opinions as new information comes along when your mindset is that you've found "the truth." On complex real world topics, the truth is an ever-changing, ever-evolving, and usually-unknowable objective thing. The moment any of us thinks we've discovered the all-knowing truth, it's a tell-tale sign we've eaten bias for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and dessert.
(P.S. Apologies to Queen 6 if you're female. I thought about re-doing all the pronouns with s/he but that would make the above awfully difficult to read.)
Because I consider his conclusions unreasonable and unbalanced. That is all a matter of perspective.
Btw, I enjoyed the civil and rational post you made, hope we can continue this discussion with cool heads. Here's the rest of my reply:
No, I agree with you, I wrote - maybe didn't emphasize it well - that these "environmental and social policies" are also driven by profit and not altruism. What I tried to explain is that all these companies are profit motivated (or "greedy" as some people call them), but at least some have more acceptible methods, even if their motives are exactly the same.
I'll give you an example: companies that make money from user data, like Google or Facebook, do some very bad stuff in my opinion. Such is the business they are in. Now, are they worse people or don't have moral leaders - when compared to Apple or Microsoft? No. Exactly the same. However, their business is such that the end result is something that is not very ethical in many cases.
All I'm saying is that I find it funny when someone calls one company "greedy". It's misleading, because it sounds that companies are not usually greedy, but this specific one is. No, all companies are profit driven. And, as you said, their philosopies about how best to do that are what differentiate them. In my opinion, Apple has a long run philosophy that tries to present their brand as high quality, reliable and premium - and no way that they caused this keyboard issue because they were greedy. For example, that they intentionally used worse materials because theye were like "**** users, we'll save some money if we use this weaker metal" - this would be something very bad for their business. They are not stupid and they know that. This keyboard issue is costing them a lot. Perhaps they don't know how to deal with it, perhaps they are doing a bad job - but they do care about their customer's perception of their products. Very much so.
Queen6 keeps claiming the opposite: how Apple now only cares for some short-term profits. I think this is an emotionally driven, short-sided view that is wrong.
True, but as I said - just looking at how they position their products on the market, I think it's fair to say that the public perception of their product quality is very much a part of their business strategy. Do you disagree?
I am not saying they care in a sense that they put their customer's interest ahead of profit - no company does that. I'm saying that I strongly believe that their business model is based on their users trust, and that they would never endanger this trust just to save a couple of dollars, because that is very bad business for them long term (they did endanger this trust, but I believe it's because they got overconfident in their production capabilities). That is why I think they 'care'. I think they really, honestly thought that this new keyboard would be great. And now it's possibly too late to make major fixes, who knows, but I do think they care about this stuff, because it brings them money.
I seriously doubt it's altruism. I don't think Tim Cook or Sundar Pichai are necessarily bad persons, and I don't think Apple and Google would, I don't know, cross certain lines, but more or less, everything they do is just business.
I keep repeating that he made some valid points. It's the fact that he stopped making any points at all and is now just repeating "Apple is a greedy company that doesn't give a **** about customers" wherever he can is what is annoying.
No, actually, I agree with him that the keyboard needs to be reliable. As @maflynn keeps repeating - we don't really know what the actual numbers are. These forums do attract people with issues mostly. I am aware that my personal experiences are anecdotal and nothing more. But, either way, keyboards need to be reliable - because it is possible to make them reliable.
I hope I clarified my views a bit. To me, it looks like Queen6 and people like him are not here to discuss things, just to repeat how Apple sucks now and we should all abandon it. I would very much like to have a conversation about competing keyboards, how Apple could potentially solve these issues, what is the cause of these issues, etc. etc. But people don't do that - it's usually just "Apple is a greedy company and if you like their products, you're just stupid". Kinda annoying.
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iMessage is one of their selling points for iOS devices so I don't think they would ever allow for people to use them without Apple hardware. However, maaaaaybe they would consider letting Windows PCs use iPhones to send and receive iMessages, something like remotes (the same way you send SMS on your Mac or iPad via the iPhone).
I doubt it, though. A shame. I wish I could use iMessage with people that have PCs. I find it the best way to send images, attachments, links etc between people, but of course, only those that have Apple devices. We use Hangouts at work, mostly, which is annoying to me because there is no standalone desktop app - you have to use Chrome for it. I guess, Google's logic here is the same as Apple's - we want you to use our product if you want to get our features.
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No way - iMessage is one of the strongest and most pervasive eco system lock-in advantages they have.
There is no reason I can think of for Apple to offer this on other platforms as it's not a paid service.