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I really can't get people complaining about specs. All professionals who are in demand of power, have a desktop connected to a big screen, there is no alternative, there never has been. Look at the fans and metal required to cool those big rigs, and you will see that the MacBook Pros are very sufficient for their form factor. I am not a fan of cooling noise either, and the MacBook Pro seems to be one of the few offerings out there, that actually address this.

VMs with video, and exporting video is the only time I hear the fans on my 2016 15", even though I have them connected to a 4K external monitor. Wasn't the case with 2015 and M370X, which would ramp up with some light Photoshopping and a 4K YouTube video when it was hooked up to an external screen.

Storage is much better to have on network drives that mirror themselves than to have them physically in your computer. OS and actual project in the works usually fits on a 256GB SSD. Now just waiting for an unlimited data offering on 5G and I would not care how much space my internal storage holds. Both in terms of cost and maintenance this is what you would want.
 
Dell XPS 13 or 15, etc
On paper the Dell XPS 15 is an awesome machine, but I saw one in person, and to be honest it felt like a tank, large and heavy. Last year I was close to buying a XPS, but I'm so used to the elegent size (and weight) of the MBP, I think it would be a step down. I get what Apple is doing, and while I think they took the obession of thinness to far with the 2016/2017 models. It is a beautifully light machine with one of the fastest if not fastest SSDs on the market.
 
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On paper the Dell XPS 15 is an awesome machine, but I saw one in person, and to be honest it felt like a tank, large and heavy. Last year I was close to buying a XPS, but I'm so used to the elegent size (and weight) of the MBP, I think it would be a step down. I get what Apple is doing, and while I think they took the obession of thinness to far with the 2016/2017 models. It is a beautifully light machine with one of the fastest if not fastest SSDs on the market.
I’m interested to see the XPS 2 in 1 running the intel G series GPUs in person for this reason. I’ve honestly never thought the XPS design was all that attractive and it seems quite chunky for what it is, but the 2 in 1 looks a lot more svelte (you do have to go all USB C for it though).
 
I’m interested to see the XPS 2 in 1 running the intel G series GPUs in person for this reason. I’ve honestly never thought the XPS design was all that attractive and it seems quite chunky for what it is, but the 2 in 1 looks a lot more svelte (you do have to go all USB C for it though).
I thought it was more svelte based on reviews, I popped into a Microsoft store and was surprised to see the XPS line (they had the inspirion line there previously). It wasn't a bad laptop, don't get me wrong, but I thought it was going to be lighter.

I think Dell and others are positioned to steal marketshare from Apple just because of the missteps by apple. While Apple has only small percentage of computer sales as compared to others, thye do have the premium laptop line well in hand. Others are now producing similar type machines, but with better keyboards.
 
On paper the Dell XPS 15 is an awesome machine, but I saw one in person, and to be honest it felt like a tank, large and heavy. Last year I was close to buying a XPS, but I'm so used to the elegent size (and weight) of the MBP, I think it would be a step down. I get what Apple is doing, and while I think they took the obession of thinness to far with the 2016/2017 models. It is a beautifully light machine with one of the fastest if not fastest SSDs on the market.
that's it right there. You would rather prefer the thin and light of the new MBP but I prefer the 'thin and light' of the 2015 MBP or even the 'thin and light' of the Thinkpad T/P series. The reason my preference is so is because of easier repairability, sustained power, nice keyboard, and battery backup even though I like to carry thin and light laptops around. The problem right now, IMO, is that Apple is targeting to appease ONLY the thin and light crowd leaving people like me in the lurch.

The XPS to me is a bit too thin as well cause it is known that it does throttle fairly quickly. To its credit, it does have a fairly powerful GPU as well. The right amount of 'thinness' in my view is what I see with the Thinkpad P series. Big battery, quad core and plenty of room to dissipate heat to sustain processor speeds for long durations. More importantly, there are fewer long term reliability issues cause heat is better managed, unlike Apple's MacBook pros, which from the last 8-9 years, have all been some form of warranty time bombs!
 
LG Gram, Dell XPS 13 or 15, etc. I absolutely love that the LG Gram has not just one but TWO SSD blades.

Dell XPS has similar size and similar internals. I really don’t see how it is vastly better. And I also don’t like the aspect ratio of their screen (they are smaller than MBP screens, even though the diagonal is the same), I think they have worse build quality, they also have worse battery life. They are great laptops, but are far from “vastly” better.

LG gram I’ve never heard of before, but I see it has a non-retina screen and no dedicated gpu on their 15”. I don’t see how it’s vastly better, in fact the MBP seems like a better computer to me.

So, no, these examples are not vastly better. They seem like nice computers, so if you prefer them to the MBP, it’s good they exist.
 
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My brother dumped $2k on an XPS 13. It looks like a nice laptop but definitely no way better than a MBP. The carbon fiber wrist rest looks cool but everything else is really plastic like. The keyboard looks like it should last awhile and may be easy to replace and the monitor isn't terrible. I still don't think it is anywhere near MBP quality. --- My comments are observation only, not actual user experience.
 
Dell XPS has similar size and similar internals. I really don’t see how it is vastly better.
The fact that you can replace the battery, storage and ram is something that makes it superior.

For 2,000 dollars (top level selection of the XPS), its stil cheaper then base 15" MBP
You get 16GB of ram (upgradeable to 32GB). The MBP is limited to 16GB
512GB SSD vs. 256SSD (yes Apple's is much faster)
Nvidia GPU with 4GB of ram vs AMD's with 2GB
4k display vs. retina
More ports

The XPS is not without its issues, and many people complain about Dell's customer support and quality. I'm also not a fan of how the carbon fiber feels or the location of the camera. The keyboard is definitely an improvement over the MBPs.

The MBP has a more premium feel, OSX works a lot better and if you have an iPhone the integration of the apple ecosystem is a huge plus.
 
The fact that you can replace the battery, storage and ram is something that makes it superior.

For 2,000 dollars (top level selection of the XPS), its stil cheaper then base 15" MBP
You get 16GB of ram (upgradeable to 32GB). The MBP is limited to 16GB
512GB SSD vs. 256SSD (yes Apple's is much faster)
Nvidia GPU with 4GB of ram vs AMD's with 2GB
4k display vs. retina
More ports

The XPS is not without its issues, and many people complain about Dell's customer support and quality. I'm also not a fan of how the carbon fiber feels or the location of the camera. The keyboard is definitely an improvement over the MBPs.

The MBP has a more premium feel, OSX works a lot better and if you have an iPhone the integration of the apple ecosystem is a huge plus.

And, <ding ding ding> --- replacing the keyboard on youtube is a 10 min video. Wow! :p
 
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After being a very happy owner of numerous Apple products since 2003, buying a 2016 MBP has been a real disappointment.

I’ve not had an issue with the keyboard but I’ve had an issue with a static popping sound from underneath the speaker grilles - I’m on my second replacement unit and this is still happening.

Previous to this I owned a late 2009 iMac that worked flawlessly - and still works - for the 7 years that I used it as my main machine.

This can’t be a coincidence - there’s obviously significant flaws with the 2016-2017 MPBs in multiple areas.

And it all seems to stem from Apple wanting to make the MBP as thin as possible.

I suspect that packing together PC components so tightly has caused several issues issues, plus of course resulting in a deeply flawed keyboard design.

I think that this year is going to be a crunch one for Apple. Apart from the MBP issue, they are having problems executing on the software front too.

I can’t put my finger on it but something doesn’t seem right with them at the moment. They seem to be making poor decisions across the board.

I’m not ready to jump ship just yet but I’m certainly not buying a new Mac anytime soon. Nor am I going to invest in the latest and greatest iPhone either.

I have lost trust in them being able to launch fully thought out and functional products.

They launch things before they are ready (HomePod) and shoot themselves in the foot by pre-announcing things that are evidently not ready yet (HomePod again, messages in the cloud)

This trend seems to stem from them no longer ‘skating to where the puck is going to be’ but entering product categories so late that they are playing catch up (HomePod) and feel the need to pre-announce products to prevent purchases of those of their competitors.

Their services, you wouldn’t describe as best in class at all.

The Mac seems to have been criminally neglected. The Mac Pro and Mac mini are simply products that a) should not be on sale with their current specs and b) certainly not at the prices that they’re at. It’s insulting to consumers that they keep ageing products for sale for so long.

To be fair to them, AirPods are great. It’s not all bad.

However, I wonder if we’re seeing finally an Apple without the influence of the product roadmap inherited by Jobs.

Their decisions seem to be purely number driven ones ie:

‘Why invest in the Mac with these numbers, iOS is the future. Oh hang on, we’ve realised that iOS won’t get to be a Mac replacement for years and movie, music and AR content creators are leaving us, quick we’d better start investing in the Mac again’.

Apple needs to start showing again thst it has the vision that Jobs had. It’s not just about the numbers. And they need to pull up their socks and start executing properly.
 
We have a couple of XPS 15s. The keyboard is good, feels like the older 2011 non-retina MacBook Pros. The optional 4K screen is amazing. Probably the best looking of any laptop. And the thin bezels make it look huge. It also means the unit is closer in size to a 14 inch. The worse thing is the web cam placement at the bottom of the screen. It's a chin cam.

Inside the great thing is you can upgrade it yourself. Want more memory, swap in a bigger module you got on Amazon. Want a bigger drive, swap in a new stick, you picked up at BestBuy. Every time I have opened one up, I look at my 2015 MBP and say "WTF Apple"
 
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I have an HP Spectre x360 that I bought to use the pen with photo editing. It's every bit as thin as my 2016 MBP, has a great battery and a wonderful keyboard.

My MBP is one on the recall list with the potentially swollen battery issue. When I was reading about the battery issue I came across a number of posts about owners complaining about how many times they've had their keyboards replaced and it made me wonder how much of an issue this really is and whether Apple is going to address, i.e., change the keyboard. I remember Timmy Cook saying the reason for the butterfly keyboard was so they could make the Pro thinner. Yet, my Spectre is every bit as thin and has a traditional keyboard. Seems to me Apple could use another keyboard design if they wanted to, but my guess is changing keyboards was just another cost cutting move by Cook.
 
Dell XPS has similar size and similar internals. I really don’t see how it is vastly better. And I also don’t like the aspect ratio of their screen (they are smaller than MBP screens, even though the diagonal is the same), I think they have worse build quality, they also have worse battery life. They are great laptops, but are far from “vastly” better.

LG gram I’ve never heard of before, but I see it has a non-retina screen and no dedicated gpu on their 15”. I don’t see how it’s vastly better, in fact the MBP seems like a better computer to me.

So, no, these examples are not vastly better. They seem like nice computers, so if you prefer them to the MBP, it’s good they exist.
The Dell has “worse” build quality maybe. Depends how you look at it. I have seen them left open outside in the rain over night and still be working in the morning. I am mostly talking about internals. These were examples of computers with similar form factors that manage to continue to offer modular internals that are easily replaced, and comparable if not better battery life (and again, modular and easily replaced battery). The LG is especially remarkable because it has far better battery life AND two modular NVM.e slots. I believe the 15” can be BTO with higher resolution display. Again, the point here is that Apple could and should design with modular components, make devices that can be easily serviced, and with at least some liquid resistance. A keyboard replacement should not require a total tear down and cost $400.
 
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The XPS 15 is interesting system. With Costco (US) selling the XPS 15 with the 4K Ultra HD display, 32GB of ram for those that need it, 1TB SSD, and 4GB GTX 1050 graphics for $1899. And they give you the second year warranty at no charge.

If you can remove the Windows trash talk from conversations, which should be done, this is a stout system at an incredible price.
 
The XPS 15 is interesting system. With Costco (US) selling the XPS 15 with the 4K Ultra HD display, 32GB of ram for those that need it, 1TB SSD, and 4GB GTX 1050 graphics for $1899. And they give you the second year warranty at no charge.

If you can remove the Windows trash talk from conversations, which should be done, this is a stout system at an incredible price.


Wow!
 
Wow is right considering Dell.com has half those stats for same price for the XPS 13. Go Costco! I used to have a membership there but when it's just my wife and I... we couldn't really make it work. Doesn't help it's a 20 min drive too.

But 32GB Ram, 4k UHD, 1TB SSD, a dedicated GPU for under $2k? DANG.
 
I thought it was more svelte based on reviews, I popped into a Microsoft store and was surprised to see the XPS line (they had the inspirion line there previously). It wasn't a bad laptop, don't get me wrong, but I thought it was going to be lighter.

I think Dell and others are positioned to steal marketshare from Apple just because of the missteps by apple. While Apple has only small percentage of computer sales as compared to others, thye do have the premium laptop line well in hand. Others are now producing similar type machines, but with better keyboards.
Certainly not a bad computer by any means, but you do look at it compared to a 2015 MacBook Pro and it really leaves something to be desired in terms of dimensions. Of course the 2015 body actually dates from 2012 which makes it all the more impressive - and all the sadder it’s on it’s way out.

I’m kind of conflicted on the design of the 2016-(2019?) MBP. On the one hand, I’m really impressed with how much more portable over the previous generation it is - and I was definitely a skeptic when I first saw the 2015 and 2016 compared, I though the difference looked minimal at best. Really though it’s not exaggerating at all to say the 15” is pretty well as portable as a 13” Air. I’m also coming to terms with USB C as I don’t plug all that much into my computer generally anyway, a couple of adapters, cables and new thumb drives will pretty much set me up. I don’t relish the change but I think it’s doable. I don’t like the keyboard, even aside from the reliability issues - and that is a borderline dealbreaker, and a definite dealbreaker when reliability is considered. I also felt the overall build quality was lower in terms of robustness if not fit and finish (the screen feels a lot more flimsy than on the previous design for example). I have to say I didn’t personally find the large trackpad an issue, even doing a lot of typing though I also wouldn’t mind seeing the trackpad from the 13” used for the 15”, seems like more of a sweet spot and might address the issues some have experienced.
 
I don't think its as bad as the 2011 GPU issue, where nearly every GPU is going to fail.

I don't have an answer as to why these fail for some but not others, but I suspect that the key mechinism is much more delicate then prior generations and is more susceptible to failure.

I know people with the 2011 17" MacBook Pro, one is working just fine. Another did die but the repair cost on something that is way out of even AppleCare warranty is now getting to the point where a new motherboard is beyond economic repair.

The fact that the CPU was Sandy Bridge generation i7 speaks volumes to how good those were in that they aren't miles worse in benchmarks than todays quad cores.

The price of the 2016 MacBook Pro (made worse by the 20% price hike in the aftermath of the Brexit vote) discouraged me from buying one in winter 2016, then later the long-term reviews of these models began showing up the keyboard issues. By the time we reach the 2017 model with Kaby Lake CPU only 9 months later - the CPU I believe that Apple were in fact waiting for in the 2016 but had to settle for the Skylake - AND the less sophisticated battery - due to needing to have a product at market to hit the October 2016 deadline.

I then read that there engineering tweaks for 2017 model keyboards consisting of shims and that people who had warranty work done on their keyboards required an expensive top case replacement which included the battery. That's fine under warranty but imagine the cost of repairing one out of warranty. And I heard about the popping speakers - that's just another bad mark against Apple.

After all that, I've continually noticed some amazing deals for the 2016 model at third party retailers while the 2017 model had been the current model for several months. This is something that has happened with regularity in mainstream retailers in the US. Where do these 3rd dealers get supply (or ability to discount so heavily) without the tacit approval of Apple?

It's perfectly possible for Apple to have swept these issues under the carpet to get the most possible out of the design - a third (2018) generation of the 2016/2017 design would be an obvious move for Apple to have done this year to spread the cost of their investment in the touch bar out but let's bear these facts out:

1. Apple have had 2 years now to correct the battery part that failed a key test and was swept away from the 2016 model. Ironically the 2016 MacBook Pro non touch bar model has been recalled due to swelling battery. I wonder if Apple have fixed the battery issue as the main point with terracing appears to be to carve out more room for battery inside a small case.

2. Keyboard issues are significant and seemingly non-mitigable with 'normal' use in dusty environments or where users eat at their desk. The 2017 models may reduce the effect for dust/crumbs introduced from outside the laptop but with the battery so closely aligned with the top case any swelling or excess heat from being caned by sustained video editing (for example) could also affect the keys too (in a permanent sense).

3. The Touchbar itself has raised the cost of buying the MacBook Pro out of the reach of many. What used to be a £1,999 top SKU 2015 15" MacBook Pro in early October 2016 became a £2,799 top SKU overnight (UK prices include tax) in part due to currency issues but putting an ARM CPU into Macs with the touch bar - essentially an Apple Watch - bumps the price no matter how you skew it. No wonder people who may have bought the higher end 13" models dropped down to the MacBook Air which itself received a price bump in the UK. Keyboard reasoning may also have driven many potential buyers of the 13" downwards while lack of ports with the non touch bar model can't have helped either.

4. Intel's Coffee Lake CPUs offer a raw performance increase for people who have multithreaded work flows. If you take into account that this year's Polaris-based AMD GPUs are going to be rebadges of last years models with only slight speed bumps then Apple probably have to go big on the extra cores where possible.

It's an opportunity for Apple to draw a line under the 2016/17 models and 'hide' the failures of their 13" and 15" behind larger screened 14" and 16" models - perhaps a redesign that has been in the making for a while with Intel's roadmap stretching out into the distance (we won't talk about the ARM CPU in Macs rumours).

a. Super Retina Screen (1600p on 14", 4k on 16" for example).
b. Longer battery life (bigger battery to drive the bigger screen) - or just call it quits with the usual 10 hours on wifi.
c. More cores thanks to Intel Coffee Lake (or if Kaby Lake Refresh G, better battery life!)
d. Touch Bar an option - not mandatory - allowing for cheaper SKUs.
e. Better keyboard and trackpad (no need to mention why they are better)

Behind the scenes the re-engineering might help reduce repair costs too which surely Apple have noticed through AppleCare analysis. 2016 users still have upwards of another year or so before they're on their own.

Phil Schiller doesn't have to talk about how these laptops are thinner year on year - this year at least(!). He's even allowed to say how Apple pack 4-6 cores into the Mac with more battery life than ever before if Apple move the goal posts with higher density Super Retina displays (yes, the name has already been introduced into the iPhone X).

He won't have to mention the keyboard (give it an extra mm of travel in the larger case), the touch bar could become optional, and they can go on about how recycled Aluminium from iPhones is being used now.

The 12" MacBook doesn't currently have Y series Intel CPUs out at the moment but there's been talk of an updated MacBook Air recently. There's still no Iris Graphics powered 15w Intel CPU to go into the non touch bar 13" model which as we know has been hit by battery recall issues recently for the 2016 edition.

The non touch bar model is still a bit of a problem, having just 2 ports, and Apple may even deem the performance of the Iris Graphics 640 series incapable of delivering a decent experience in a super retina display. Perhaps there they would offer a lower density original retina display or 1080p IPS display in a revamped MacBook Air with all the old ports but including Thunderbolt 3?

Coming back on topic right at the end - As this thread is about the keyboard I'll expand a little more on my take. I'm not overly impressed by the feel of the 2016/17 keyboards on the few times I've tried them out in the Apple Store. I'm sure I could have become accustomed to typing on them but what is unforgivable is the apparent design issue which seemingly doesn't account for dust or crumbs from outside and paper thin tolerances of the battery and heat by the system from within.

Aside from the price, this keyboard lottery is something I can't participate in and why I'll keep using my 2013 Retina MacBook Pro and will continue to monitor the situation with headless Macs for desktop. I keep an eye on the MacBook Pro as a modern alternative to a Mac Mini which is a fossil by comparison.
 

Inevitable as there's a blatant and obvious design flaw Apple will just hold off as long as it possibly can before issuing an extended warranty on the afflicted models.

"This keyboard has to be one of the biggest design screwups in Apple history. Everyone who buys a MacBook depends upon the keyboard and this keyboard is undependable."

Q-6
[doublepost=1524878967][/doublepost]
I think if Apple just put out Coffee Lake 6 core CPUs into the 2017 model for 2018 and call it quits for this year without addressing the keyboard at all because they are going to see to it in 2019 or 2020 (not that they would tell us) there will be a few unhappy folks.

I have little doubt that's Apple's plan, just as spec bump and business as usual. I'm sure that Apple will also go further to mitigate failure of the keyboard's before it blows up. Personally I would like to see Apple "break the mould" actually "Think Different" in 2018 drop the gimmick's and deliver a killer MBP or bring back the PowerBook and make a really performance orientated notebook focused on usability not being endlessly thinner.

Back to reality CPU upgrade and rebadged dGPU, with Apple working on line-up's where it can add margin for those extra cores :p

Q-6
 
Inevitable as there's a blatant and obvious design flaw Apple will just hold off as long as it possibly can before issuing an extended warranty on the afflicted models.

"This keyboard has to be one of the biggest design screwups in Apple history. Everyone who buys a MacBook depends upon the keyboard and this keyboard is undependable."

Q-6
[doublepost=1524878967][/doublepost]

I have little doubt that's Apple's plan, just as spec bump and business as usual. I'm sure that Apple will also go further to mitigate failure of the keyboard's before it blows up. Personally I would like to see Apple "break the mould" actually "Think Different" in 2018 drop the gimmick's and deliver a killer MBP or bring back the PowerBook and make a really performance orientated notebook focused on usability not being endlessly thinner.

Back to reality CPU upgrade and rebadged dGPU, with Apple working on line-up's where it can add margin for those extra cores :p

Q-6
You wish!:D
I am pretty sure post WWDC, you and I will be here ranting about this.
Today's Apple is extremely spiteful IMO. Else they would not have embarked upon this path. I can vouch that the executives knew that there will be dissatisfaction amongst the populace with the riveted keyboard and the touch bar. But, they must have thought, people who want to buy will buy...else tough titties.
 
You wish!:D
I am pretty sure post WWDC, you and I will be here ranting about this.
Today's Apple is extremely spiteful IMO. Else they would not have embarked upon this path. I can vouch that the executives knew that there will be dissatisfaction amongst the populace with the riveted keyboard and the touch bar. But, they must have thought, people who want to buy will buy...else tough titties.

Very much agree, said for year's now "best thing Apple sells is Apple", don't even waste my time watching the Keynotes these days. Just empty promises, with the only interest in the customer being an many $$$$ they can extract for the least possible effort.

Mostly just curious these days already dumped Apple for work purpose, considering an 8 Core monster, equally my current W10 primary notebook is no slouch crushing everything I throw at it, never running out of resources. There's always the remote chance (in the extreme) that someone in Apple wakes up and asks "where's all the Pro's gone" ;) more chance of Apple selling shoes & handbags, a lot more :p

Apple hasn't go the balls for it any more simple as that, safe, dull and utterly boring, and when they do have an occasional brainwave they just tend to **** it up anyways ...:(

Q-6
 
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The thing that bothers me the most right now is, given Apple's silense on this matter, coupled with the rumor of the moving to ARM, I'm concerned that they'll just "gut it out" with this design and have a fully redesigned laptop in 2020.

I know I'm jumping to conclusions, and that concern has no basis in reality but you cannot dismiss the fact that apple has not said much on this topic or has addressed affected owners
 
The thing that bothers me the most right now is, given Apple's silense on this matter, coupled with the rumor of the moving to ARM, I'm concerned that they'll just "gut it out" with this design and have a fully redesigned laptop in 2020.

I know I'm jumping to conclusions, and that concern has no basis in reality but you cannot dismiss the fact that apple has not said much on this topic or has addressed affected owners

Apple rarely does, so it's business as usual. Until a court of law or real and present negativity rises within the general public Apple will likely remain silent, as it has done on numerous occasions in the past. Just look how long it took Apple to recognise the 2011 dGPU issue, and that was evident to all for literally years before Apple acknowledged anything.

Reality is you purchase a 2016/2017 you get to roll the dice on the keyboards reliability, once outside of warranty your on your own. 2018 MBP let's see, I'm certain Apple are working on the keyboards reliability, equally Apple may just have painted itself into yet another corner and happily ride the storm until the next cycle, then it magically goes away...

Q-6
 
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