MBP keyboard article

[macjunk(ie)]

The thing that bothers me the most right now is, given Apple's silense on this matter, coupled with the rumor of the moving to ARM, I'm concerned that they'll just "gut it out" with this design and have a fully redesigned laptop in 2020.

I know I'm jumping to conclusions, and that concern has no basis in reality but you cannot dismiss the fact that apple has not said much on this topic or has addressed affected owners

Well Apple did post the compressed air article for the keyboard. So not completely quiet.
Today, a bunch of my classmates having the 2016/2017 decided to invest in a community compressed air can they can keep in the common locker so that they do not have to carry one in the bag everyday. I can't help but feel really smug about the fact that I returned my warranty time bomb

I am so looking forward to building a 'golden' hackintosh build. This will give me OSX (the only thing I value in Apple's ecosystem) on hardware I control. But moving to ARM will kill the hackintosh community. If the state of Apple's hardware remains the same as it is, then I am done with Apple for good. I will not be herded into a dictatorial Apple-proprietary isolated island.

 

[Sam Luis Obispo]

Well Apple did post the compressed air article for the keyboard. So not completely quiet.
Today, a bunch of my classmates having the 2016/2017 decided to invest in a community compressed air can they can keep in the common locker so that they do not have to carry one in the bag everyday. I can't help but feel really smug about the fact that I returned my warranty time bomb

I am so looking forward to building a 'golden' hackintosh build. This will give me OSX (the only thing I value in Apple's ecosystem) on hardware I control. But moving to ARM will kill the hackintosh community. If the state of Apple's hardware remains the same as it is, then I am done with Apple for good. I will not be herded into a dictatorial Apple-proprietary isolated island.

Let's say you build your hackintosh this year. Are you talking about desktop system or laptop? And if you are talking about a laptop, can we here a few more details?

 

[doitdada]

The last year in Hackintosh has been miserable. A lot of the hacks break every other update, Nvidia support and AMD support is there, but not optimal. Sierra was the last fault free Hackintosh. Have tried numerous configurations, and I am back with a MBP 2016 15". Small differences that missing hardware acceleration, random boots etc. Not worth it in my opinion. You better off buying a iMac in the end. Some times it work, some times it don't, you don't have any control over it and nobody else has either.

Had a golden build with 4790k, 760 GTX card and third party wifi adapter, but I got tired of it. You have to wait for community releases of kexts, efi and other hacks, then maybe a new feature will be supported three or four months down the road, then it will vanish in another three of four months, so my experience with it is ... buy a real mac if you don't already have a PC that is compatible and then maybe, then maybe, you can try a dual boot. In the end, don't buy a dedicated system for a Hackintosh. If you have a gaming rig that can run macOS, then good, but never make it your daily driver. You will get upset by the little things.

On PC I would always run Windows, on a Mac always macOS...on a server maybe Linux.

 

[aevan]

Very much agree, said for year's now "best thing Apple sells is Apple", don't even waste my time watching the Keynotes these days. Just empty promises, with the only interest in the customer being an many $$$$ they can extract for the least possible effort.



Q-6

Look, man, you seem like a rational guy and I don’t fault your thought process, but the sheer amount of Apple bashing you do recently doesn’t make you seem objective. It’s one thing to criticize a MBP you don’t like, but your recent comments are just hating Apple on all levels, and I think you’re just expressing some personal frustration.

First of all, their keynotes are among the best in the biz, they still announce (and deliver) great stuff, they make one of the best phones, the absolute best tablets, the best all-in-one desktops, the best bluetooth headphones, etc.

Even their MacBook Pro - fine, you don’t like it, you prefer Surface or Dell or whatever. That is good, a great choice for a lot of people. But let’s not use this keyboard problem as proof that Apple needs some drastic change here. The MBP is, for a lot of us here, simply the best laptop on the market. In my opinion, all they need to do is 1. Ensure the keyboard (and anything else) is reliable, 2. Keep updating the internals with current hardware.

Continue to criticize what you dislike about these computers, but if you want a normal discussion, perhaps stop with all the bashing. You don’t like Apple now, we get it. Let’s stick to the subject.

 

[giggles]

I wonder if keyboard covers (TPU, silicone, skins, etc.) could be a temporary solution.

Also this makes a good argument for “next gen” (touch with bumpy haptic feedback?) unconventional keyboards with no seams. The touchbar could be a testing ground for a whole touchscreen keyboard. (I’m sure someone is reading this in horror but try to imagine they made it sci-fi good, with the haptic bumpiness being activated by proximity just before the fingers actually touch the keyboard-screen, and successfully trick the brain into feeling a long key travel just like the home button does on iphone 7/8)

 

[BigMcGuire]

I wonder if keyboard covers (TPU, silicone, skins, etc.) could be a temporary solution.

Also this makes a good argument for “next gen” (touch with bumpy haptic feedback?) unconventional keyboards with no seams. The touchbar could be a testing ground for a whole touchscreen keyboard. (I’m sure someone is reading this in horror but try to imagine they made it sci-fi good, with the haptic bumpiness being activated by proximity just before the fingers actually touch the keyboard-screen, and successfully trick the brain into feeling a long key travel just like the home button does on iphone 7/8)

Always wondered how Star Trek did it. I couldn't imagine typing on a glass like that with an incline like that for hours and hours on end, especially rapidly... Data was a childhood hero of mine - I spent hours on Mavis Beacon learning to type as fast as I could for years so that I could be just like Data. I can easily keep 155+wpm for long periods of time but this usually results in keyboards getting destroyed (I can do 186wpm+ for short bursts).

So hearing how the Mac keyboard was susceptible to problems made me freak out bad (I purchased one online last week, will be delivered next week). However, now that I've spent many hours reading as much as I could about it - looks like dust and particles cause the butterfly switch from working right - 2017 model (unconfirmed) has a gasket around the keys helping reduce this issue - blowing air usually fixes it.

If I'm paying $3k for a system, it better sure as hell give me good usage for many years. I didn't buy a $3k system to baby it and treat it like thin piece of glass. There are posters out there who say they program on their 2016-2017 models for 12+ hours a day for years, so ... we'll see.


While I have gotten used to chicklet keys and short travel distances, I always liked the mechanical keyboards more. I could type high speed on those for hours. But now that I've gotten used to laptop keyboards I type slower and wear out very quickly on the true mechanical (brown/cherry/black switches) keyboards that I've saved - but I can really go to town speed wise on those things. They just make the ears bleed with the noise level... A plate of glass? no way. :/

But you have a point, my 8+'s "button" sure feels like a button and I really like it.

 

[Altis]

Always wondered how Star Trek did it. I couldn't imagine typing on a glass like that with an incline like that for hours and hours on end, especially rapidly... Data was a childhood hero of mine - I spent hours on Mavis Beacon learning to type as fast as I could for years so that I could be just like Data. I can easily keep 155+wpm for long periods of time but this usually results in keyboards getting destroyed (I can do 186wpm+ for short bursts).

So hearing how the Mac keyboard was susceptible to problems made me freak out bad (I purchased one online last week, will be delivered next week). However, now that I've spent many hours reading as much as I could about it - looks like dust and particles cause the butterfly switch from working right - 2017 model (unconfirmed) has a gasket around the keys helping reduce this issue - blowing air usually fixes it.

If I'm paying $3k for a system, it better sure as hell give me good usage for many years. I didn't buy a $3k system to baby it and treat it like thin piece of glass. There are posters out there who say they program on their 2016-2017 models for 12+ hours a day for years, so ... we'll see.


While I have gotten used to chicklet keys and short travel distances, I always liked the mechanical keyboards more. I could type high speed on those for hours. But now that I've gotten used to laptop keyboards I type slower and wear out very quickly on the true mechanical (brown/cherry/black switches) keyboards that I've saved - but I can really go to town speed wise on those things. They just make the ears bleed with the noise level... A plate of glass? no way. :/

But you have a point, my 8+'s "button" sure feels like a button and I really like it.

I just picked up a 2-month old Lenovo Thinkpad. User-upgradable RAM (8GB DDR4), user-upgradable SSD (128 GB came with it), 1080p IPS display, and quite possibly the best laptop keyboard you can get. Still has 10 months of warranty, has two batteries, external one can be hot-swapped and gets about 15 hours of run-time (20 if I swap with the smaller one). Has all the ports I need, including USB 3.1 ports, miniDP, and an SD card reader (full size cards get fully-recessed).

Know what I paid? $291 all-in USD (it was actually $375 Canadian dollars). The cheapest 13" MBP is about CAD$2000 here. I can afford to lose this entirely, and go buy a brand new XPS 15" or Yoga 720 15" and still not have spent as much as the base 13" Pro.

It feels refreshing to get so much for so little. I'm about as big of a keyboard snob as they come (with a collection of vintage/mechanical/Topre keyboards), but it puts the one on even the older MacBooks/Pros to shame. 45g-uniform Topre (Realforce 87U and HHKB2) is currently my favorite switch of them all, with Alps SKCM Blue being a close second.

One nice thing about this particular Thinkpad is it does not have backlit keyboard. Not only do I never use the function (in fact, most of my newer keyboards have no legends on them at all), but because they don't have backlighting, the keycap tops are quite texturized, like a gritty surface instead of glossy. When they do backlit, the legends are part of the surface plastic, so they have to make them smooth to get clear legends. Feels much better to me this way.

Anyways, it certainly is not a good feeling to have something with a known flaw, because it's sticks in your mind as a concern. That was why I got the 2010 17" MBP instead of the 2011, which are considerably better in every way except that they have a widespread dGPU issue causing complete logic board failure. It's too bad.

 

[aevan]

I just picked up a 2-month old Lenovo Thinkpad. User-upgradable RAM (8GB DDR4), user-upgradable SSD (128 GB came with it), 1080p IPS display, and quite possibly the best laptop keyboard you can get. Still has 10 months of warranty, has two batteries, external one can be hot-swapped and gets about 15 hours of run-time (20 if I swap with the smaller one). Has all the ports I need, including USB 3.1 ports, miniDP, and an SD card reader (full size cards get fully-recessed).

It seems to me you found a laptop that you really like for a price that is really great. Good for you. But you are comparing things that don't matter to everyone. Some people are willing to pay more for certain things. For example, I want a Retina screen with wide-color gamut, I want a premium build, I want macOS, I want 4 TB3 ports, I want a large, Apple-quality trackpad with Force touch, I want that insanely fast SSD, etc. These things don't matter to you? Not willing to pay a premium for them? Great, there are alternatives, as you yourself said.

But I just don't understand people coming here and comparing certain things and then citing a much lower price like that means something. Imagine me going to a Lamborghini forum and saying things like "I just got a Fiat - it has four doors, it has wheels, gets great mileage, comfortable seats - and all it cost was 20k!".

It all just comes down to what you're willing to pay for.

 

[Altis]

It seems to me you found a laptop that you really like for a price that is really great. Good for you. But you are comparing things that don't matter to everyone. Some people are willing to pay more for certain things. For example, I want a Retina screen with wide-color gamut, I want a premium build, I want macOS, I want 4 TB3 ports, I want a large, Apple-quality trackpad with Force touch, I want that insanely fast SSD, etc. These things don't matter to you? Not willing to pay a premium for them? Great, there are alternatives, as you yourself said.

But I just don't understand people coming here and comparing certain things and then citing a much lower price like that means something. Imagine me going to a Lamborghini forum and saying things like "I just got a Fiat - it has four doors, it has wheels, gets great mileage, comfortable seats - and all it cost was 20k!".

It all just comes down to what you're willing to pay for.

Not that I was responding to you, but anyways, my point was that the keyboard is incredibly good on these machines -- not just a sacrifice to shave every micrometer of thickness. I'm not trying to say it's all around a better machine than a MBP, even if there are many benefits to me.

In any case, Apple's prices are steep in Canada. CAD $2000 for a base model 13" MBP, $3200 for the base 15"... Can get an XPS 15" with similar speed SSD, even better 4K display, and enough TB3 ports/lanes (do you really need 4 if they're such miracle ports, anyways?), and a similar build quality for like 60-70% of the price.

You may be convinced that because it's a higher price, it's somehow more "premium" and actually worth more. With the problems of High Sierra and keyboard failures becoming a major issue that costs more than half the price of the laptop again to repair, I'm not so sure. Certainly the attitude of some around here is that it's above everything else and cannot be compared with anything. It's a computer, not a timeless gem.

I get what you're saying about value. I mean, you could be willing to pay $50,000 for a base 13" MBP because value is subjectively whatever it's worth to you. But people can have conversations about what something is worth compared with other products.

 

[DjanSeriyAnaplian]

Look, man, you seem like a rational guy and I don’t fault your thought process, but the sheer amount of Apple bashing you do recently doesn’t make you seem objective. It’s one thing to criticize a MBP you don’t like, but your recent comments are just hating Apple on all levels, and I think you’re just expressing some personal frustration.

First of all, their keynotes are among the best in the biz, they still announce (and deliver) great stuff, they make one of the best phones, the absolute best tablets, the best all-in-one desktops, the best bluetooth headphones, etc.

Even their MacBook Pro - fine, you don’t like it, you prefer Surface or Dell or whatever. That is good, a great choice for a lot of people. But let’s not use this keyboard problem as proof that Apple needs some drastic change here. The MBP is, for a lot of us here, simply the best laptop on the market. In my opinion, all they need to do is 1. Ensure the keyboard (and anything else) is reliable, 2. Keep updating the internals with current hardware.

Continue to criticize what you dislike about these computers, but if you want a normal discussion, perhaps stop with all the bashing. You don’t like Apple now, we get it. Let’s stick to the subject.

'Oh look he's dissenting!'

'The audacity!'

'How dare he stray from the groupthink! Tar and feather him!'


*roll

 

[Falhófnir]

I wonder if keyboard covers (TPU, silicone, skins, etc.) could be a temporary solution.

Also this makes a good argument for “next gen” (touch with bumpy haptic feedback?) unconventional keyboards with no seams. The touchbar could be a testing ground for a whole touchscreen keyboard. (I’m sure someone is reading this in horror but try to imagine they made it sci-fi good, with the haptic bumpiness being activated by proximity just before the fingers actually touch the keyboard-screen, and successfully trick the brain into feeling a long key travel just like the home button does on iphone 7/8)

Think the gap between screen and keyboard rules a cover out - certainly if you want to close the machine without risking damage to the screen.

Yep, I just don't think I could manage typing on a flat glass surface for several hours per day - it's not just how feels, it's how it makes your fingertips feel after extended typing sessions - I found in my test run on a borrowed 2016 that my fingertips were already beginning to feel sore after just a day of, granted pretty intensive usage. Even though I wasn't hammering away by any means, just typing with what felt like appropriate pressure, I think it must be down to the little/ no dampening due to the extremely short travel - the keys are of course going to bottom out almost immediately. In the case of typing on, effectively a built in iPad screen, haptics or no that's going to worsen this effect further.

 

[sputnikBA]

While do think Queen-6 might benefit from walking away from apple for a while, I don’t think any of us can deny that this keyboard issue is pretty bad for a variety of reasons. A top end 15” MBP in 2015 cost just under £2k, a high price - but one people paid knowing they were getting quality & reliable hardware... yet now (for varying reasons) that equivalent spec is about £2,900... and even after spending all of that you can’t be sure that you won’t need an additional fee to resolve the keyboard issue (in the form buying Apple Care or having to pay for an OOW repair).

If you are someone who hasn’t needed to pay then that’s great, but for all the people that have, I just don’t think it’s acceptable.

Apple putting up that compressed air support doc means that they know there is an issue, so I hope they do the right thing and provide some kind of extended warranty program for the MB & MBP keyboards... and if they don’t, I hope that there’s legal action / consumer watchdog that forces them to refund anyone who has had to pay to fix Apple’s mistakes.

 

[aevan]

'Oh look he's dissenting!'

'The audacity!'

'How dare he stray from the groupthink! Tar and feather him!'


*roll

Did you even read what I wrote, or do you just generally attack people who disagree with you?

 

[DjanSeriyAnaplian]

Did you even read what I wrote, or do you just generally attack people who disagree with you?

Evidently I read it.

I do wish people would see Apple for what it is: an extremely large public company beholden to investors - not an oracular tech fountain of youth.

 

[Koh Phi Phi]

Right now, I have a late 2016 MBP 15" TouchBar sitting in a closet because the "b" letter stopped functioning 2 months ago, and I refuse to pay Apple $700 plus tax to fix ONE SINGLE KEY!

The laptop is otherwise in mint condition, and because of that damn letter, it will probably not be used again.

Enfurated, I went out and bought a premium Windows laptop. After having been an Apple advocate for a decade, Im a happy camper on the PC side again.

Sorry Apple, but your new keyboards are a fiasco, and your repair prices/policies are absurd.

You lost me as a customer.

 

[BigMcGuire]

Right now, I have a late 2016 MBP 15" TouchBar sitting in a closet because the "b" letter stopped functioning 2 months ago, and I refuse to pay Apple $700 plus tax to fix ONE SINGLE KEY!

The laptop is otherwise in mint condition, and because of that damn letter, it will probably not be used again.

Enfurated, I went out and bought a premium Windows laptop. After having been an Apple advocate for a decade, Im a happy camper on the PC side again.

Sorry Apple, but your new keyboards suck, and your repair prices are absurd. You lost me as a customer.

At least set it up as a desktop with an external mouse/keyboard/monitor?!
[doublepost=1524966648][/doublepost]

I just picked up a 2-month old Lenovo Thinkpad. User-upgradable RAM (8GB DDR4), user-upgradable SSD (128 GB came with it), 1080p IPS display, and quite possibly the best laptop keyboard you can get. Still has 10 months of warranty, has two batteries, external one can be hot-swapped and gets about 15 hours of run-time (20 if I swap with the smaller one). Has all the ports I need, including USB 3.1 ports, miniDP, and an SD card reader (full size cards get fully-recessed).

Know what I paid? $291 all-in USD (it was actually $375 Canadian dollars). The cheapest 13" MBP is about CAD$2000 here. I can afford to lose this entirely, and go buy a brand new XPS 15" or Yoga 720 15" and still not have spent as much as the base 13" Pro.

It feels refreshing to get so much for so little. I'm about as big of a keyboard snob as they come (with a collection of vintage/mechanical/Topre keyboards), but it puts the one on even the older MacBooks/Pros to shame. 45g-uniform Topre (Realforce 87U and HHKB2) is currently my favorite switch of them all, with Alps SKCM Blue being a close second.

One nice thing about this particular Thinkpad is it does not have backlit keyboard. Not only do I never use the function (in fact, most of my newer keyboards have no legends on them at all), but because they don't have backlighting, the keycap tops are quite texturized, like a gritty surface instead of glossy. When they do backlit, the legends are part of the surface plastic, so they have to make them smooth to get clear legends. Feels much better to me this way.

Anyways, it certainly is not a good feeling to have something with a known flaw, because it's sticks in your mind as a concern. That was why I got the 2010 17" MBP instead of the 2011, which are considerably better in every way except that they have a widespread dGPU issue causing complete logic board failure. It's too bad.

Oh I hear you - I've been living off of Chromebooks, gifted ancient PCs that ran Windows XP that I made last years and years, and now that I saved up for my first ever PC > $1500, I'm looking forward to my first Macbook Pro. My $750 Macbook Air has treated me well and I got $330 for it. This keyboard thing definitely doesn't have me happy. I demand a lot from my computers. Can't say I'm 100% certain about this either - cuz I've lived off of handmedown PCs for 15 years.

Heck, I'm typing this on a 2011 Mac Mini that I got from my boss for $200 (upgraded the ram/hd to SSD myself).

[doublepost=1524966769][/doublepost]

It seems to me you found a laptop that you really like for a price that is really great. Good for you. But you are comparing things that don't matter to everyone. Some people are willing to pay more for certain things. For example, I want a Retina screen with wide-color gamut, I want a premium build, I want macOS, I want 4 TB3 ports, I want a large, Apple-quality trackpad with Force touch, I want that insanely fast SSD, etc. These things don't matter to you? Not willing to pay a premium for them? Great, there are alternatives, as you yourself said.

But I just don't understand people coming here and comparing certain things and then citing a much lower price like that means something. Imagine me going to a Lamborghini forum and saying things like "I just got a Fiat - it has four doors, it has wheels, gets great mileage, comfortable seats - and all it cost was 20k!".

It all just comes down to what you're willing to pay for.

This sums it up very nicely. I could definitely have gotten a PC for half the cost with specs that are near the Macbook Pro but I wanted a beautiful machine that works with my iPhone and has a design that makes it easy/simple/pleasant to use. I'm looking forward to my 2017 Macbook Pro TB.

 

[Queen6]

It seems to me you found a laptop that you really like for a price that is really great. Good for you. But you are comparing things that don't matter to everyone. Some people are willing to pay more for certain things. For example, I want a Retina screen with wide-color gamut, I want a premium build, I want macOS, I want 4 TB3 ports, I want a large, Apple-quality trackpad with Force touch, I want that insanely fast SSD, etc. These things don't matter to you? Not willing to pay a premium for them? Great, there are alternatives, as you yourself said.

But I just don't understand people coming here and comparing certain things and then citing a much lower price like that means something. Imagine me going to a Lamborghini forum and saying things like "I just got a Fiat - it has four doors, it has wheels, gets great mileage, comfortable seats - and all it cost was 20k!".

It all just comes down to what you're willing to pay for.

What utter condescending Apple elitist snobbery; ThinkPad's can easily meet and exceed the cost of a Mac, nor is the MacBook Pro such an expensive purchase in the wider realm of notebook computers, just more than the average consumer notebook, certainly now lacking much of their previous intrinsic value. Not willing to pay a premium hilarious.

Frankly there would be far less decent if Apple stopped producing such poor value appliances, that serve Apple first and foremost and their customers very much second. It does indeed come down to what your willing to pay for. I and many others are not willing to pay for Apple's current poorly designed unreliable notebooks due to the appalling keyboard and other factors. Thing is some of us expect more of Apple and don't buy into their BS so readily. We know what we want and don't just accept what we're given, so naturally we're going to talk about it...

Q-6

 

[aevan]

Evidently I read it.

I do wish people would see Apple for what it is: an extremely large public company beholden to investors - not an oracular tech fountain of youth.

Reading and comprehending are two different things, then.

And “oracular tech fountain of youth”? Jeez. You must be fun at parties. Who said anything even close to that? I just ****ing like their products. Boy, you and Queen6 sure are full of hyperboles.
[doublepost=1524984682][/doublepost]

What utter condescending Apple elitist snobbery; ThinkPad's can easily meet and exceed the cost of a Mac, nor is the MacBook Pro such an expensive purchase in the wider realm of notebook computers, just more than the average consumer notebook, certainly now lacking much of their previous intrinsic value. Not willing to pay a premium hilarious.

Frankly there would be far less decent if Apple stopped producing such poor value appliances, that serve Apple first and foremost and their customers very much second. It does indeed come down to what your willing to pay for. I and many others are not willing to pay for Apple's current poorly designed unreliable notebooks due to the appalling keyboard and other factors. Thing is some of us expect more of Apple and don't buy into their BS so readily. We know what we want and don't just accept what we're given, so naturally we're going to talk about it...

Q-6

Well, dude, to quote the movie: that’s just, like, your opinion. Their “appliances” serve me very well.

Quite a few people here are very calmly explaining to you that, with all their faults, some of us just like these products, even though there are some very nice and affordable alternatives. And you’re zealously trying to convince others to change their views in a very preachy way. And not just you, a lot of people here seem to be having a hard time accepting that others may be different, value different things and have different needs. Sure, everyone needs a reliable keyboard, I give you that, but beyond that fact, there is a lot to love about Apple products, for a lot of people. You don’t seem to be one of those people, you’ve moved on, set out on a different path, you explained why - maybe it’s time to accept the fact that not everyone is coming along with you.

....or you could just continue calling people with different opinions “condescending Apple snobs”.

 

[Queen6]

Reading and comprehending are two different things, then.

And “oracular tech fountain of youth”? Jeez. You must be fun at parties. Who said anything even close to that? I just ****ing like their products. Boy, you and Queen6 sure are full of hyperboles.
[doublepost=1524984682][/doublepost]

Well, dude, to quote the movie: that’s just, like, your opinion. Their “appliances” serve me very well.

Quite a few people here are very calmly explaining to you that, with all their faults, some of us just like these products, even though there are some very nice and affordable alternatives. And you’re zealously trying to convince others to change their views in a very preachy way. And not just you, a lot of people here seem to be having a hard time accepting that others may be different, value different things and have different needs. Sure, everyone needs a reliable keyboard, I give you that, but beyond that fact, there is a lot to love about Apple products, for a lot of people. You don’t seem to be one of those people, you’ve moved on, set out on a different path, you explained why - maybe it’s time to accept the fact that not everyone is coming along with you.

....or you could just continue calling people with different opinions “condescending Apple snobs”.

Difference is your inferring that just because your willing to pay more, by default you have a better more "premium" notebook and that is being condescending. You don't even have any understanding of the members usage or needs, equally you wont be so superior if that keyboard fails again For many people reliable keyboards, battery life and ports that work in the real world, without the necessitation for dongles and adaptors for basic connectivity does actually matter a lot...

You don't like the comment now, just wait until more need to pay out their own pocket for Apple's negligence in not qualifying a keyboard design adequately with an obvious design flaw that costs as much $700 to replace Even some of Apples most fervent supporters are stating to stay clear of this current rubbish.

Source Daring Fireball:

"This keyboard has to be one of the biggest design screwups in Apple history. Everyone who buys a MacBook depends upon the keyboard and this keyboard is undependable."

"I know that we Apple-watchers sit around wondering if Apple will release new laptops with new keyboards that don’t have these issues, but Apple’s relative silence on this issue for existing customers is deafening. If these problems are remotely as common as they seem to be, this is an altogether defective product that should be recalled."

Like I said, I expect more, pity more don't...

Q-6

 

[sublunar]

Always wondered how Star Trek did it. I couldn't imagine typing on a glass like that with an incline like that for hours and hours on end, especially rapidly... Data was a childhood hero of mine - I spent hours on Mavis Beacon learning to type as fast as I could for years so that I could be just like Data. I can easily keep 155+wpm for long periods of time but this usually results in keyboards getting destroyed (I can do 186wpm+ for short bursts).

So hearing how the Mac keyboard was susceptible to problems made me freak out bad (I purchased one online last week, will be delivered next week). However, now that I've spent many hours reading as much as I could about it - looks like dust and particles cause the butterfly switch from working right - 2017 model (unconfirmed) has a gasket around the keys helping reduce this issue - blowing air usually fixes it.

If I'm paying $3k for a system, it better sure as hell give me good usage for many years. I didn't buy a $3k system to baby it and treat it like thin piece of glass. There are posters out there who say they program on their 2016-2017 models for 12+ hours a day for years, so ... we'll see.


While I have gotten used to chicklet keys and short travel distances, I always liked the mechanical keyboards more. I could type high speed on those for hours. But now that I've gotten used to laptop keyboards I type slower and wear out very quickly on the true mechanical (brown/cherry/black switches) keyboards that I've saved - but I can really go to town speed wise on those things. They just make the ears bleed with the noise level... A plate of glass? no way. :/

But you have a point, my 8+'s "button" sure feels like a button and I really like it.

The official compressed air article could end up being Apple's bloody minded 'fix' for the 2018 model which could well go on largely unchanged into a third iteration...

I'll probably need to point out that there's no evidence of anything as drastic as gaskets on the 2017 keyboards compared to the 2016. There's been a few mentions of a 'shim kit' to fit under keys and I have seen posts here about 2016 users getting 2017 keyboards as part of a warranty repair - easy to spot because the keyboard markings differ between 2017 and 2016 models.

Here's a source from the MR forum - plenty more out there if you look.

Apple can't go back to the old keyboards - that would surely be an admission that there was something wrong. Perhaps they are looking into replacements quicker than the original plan though:

OLED keyboard for MacBook or iPad (on Patently Apple). They can explain that the touch bar was so successful they are going ahead with making the entire keyboard out of it

eINK keyboards for MacBooks (collated nicely in The Verge). The Retina MacBook has had the butterfly switch keyboard since 2015 (and got the second generation one recently too). The 2017 model was the 3rd generation so it would be fair to say that a form factor change would not be too early. The only issue at the moment is that the MacBook currently doesn't have new Intel 5w Y series (aka M series) 8th generation CPUs to use.

Or as I mentioned elsewhere, re-engineer a larger case to allow a longer travel for a 3rd generation of the butterfly keyboard.

 

[aevan]

Difference is your inferring that just because your willing to pay more, by default you have a better more "premium" notebook and that is being condescending. You don't even have any understanding of the members usage or needs, equally you wont be so superior if that keyboard fails again For many people reliable keyboards, battery life and ports that work in the real world, without the necessitation for dongles and adaptors for basic connectivity does actually matter a lot...

You don't like the comment now, just wait until more need to pay out their own pocket for Apple's negligence in not qualifying a keyboard design adequately with an obvious design flaw that costs as much $700 to replace Even some of Apples most fervent supporters are stating to stay clear of this current rubbish.

Source Daring Fireball:

"This keyboard has to be one of the biggest design screwups in Apple history. Everyone who buys a MacBook depends upon the keyboard and this keyboard is undependable."

"I know that we Apple-watchers sit around wondering if Apple will release new laptops with new keyboards that don’t have these issues, but Apple’s relative silence on this issue for existing customers is deafening. If these problems are remotely as common as they seem to be, this is an altogether defective product that should be recalled."

Like I said, I expect more, pity more don't...

Q-6

I agree about the keyboard. I disagree with pretty much everything else.

First of all, how I came out acting "superior" in this discussion, I have no idea - I've been trying to be very respectful. I'm not the one calling people elitist snobs here. Second, I do hate the fact that my keyboard did fail and can fail again. I do hope Apple does something for their current customers - and I do expect more out of them in that area.

Everything else you mention are just your subjective views. The way I see it: it's not the MBP that is rubbish, it's the way you talk about it. "Ports that work in the real world"? Well, my work quite great, I can finally attach 4 USB devices without relying on hubs and that is a real world advantage. You just don't like this laptop - many do. Is that so hard to accept?

See, I don't think any company in the world puts anything before profit - but in the world of Facebook and Google - yes, I think Apple is actually quite ok when it comes to caring about their customers.

Again - the keyboard is a real issue. I do hope they end up doing something for existing customers, and they did screw up. But due to the fact everything else about this laptop and their entire product line is - in my opinion - very good, I will give them one pass and hope for the best. You won't, and that's ok. As I keep saying: you moved on, and that's great. Not all of us are coming along - and that's great too.

 

[macintoshmac]

I have no idea if apple will change the keyboard in the 2018 model, I really hope they do, as we have two years of evidence that the butterfly keyboard performs worse then the prior design.

And offer the previous owners a 50% discount to get the new keyboard in the 2016-2017 notebooks.

 

[swerve147]

Ultimately can we agree that the 2016-2017 macbook keyboard is generally thought of as "passable" to "terrible", definitely more prone to failure than any laptop keyboard before it, is a nightmare to repair both for Apple and 3rd party service providers (I still can't believe that someone actually green-lighted riveting the keyboard assembly to the chassis), and as a manufactured part extremely consumer averse (i.e what other keyboard will self destruct if you, God forbid, eat a potato chip then use it)?

If so then this needs to be fixed. As good as Apple Support is, not having these issues to begin with is obviously better for Apple and the consumer.

 

[Maxx Power]

Most recently (~4 days ago), John Gruber has voiced his opinion about these keyboards, adding to the pool of notable people who have concerns with Apple's butterfly keybords:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Curre...ds-lambasted-by-Apple-community.301414.0.html

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/04/25/johnston-mbp-keyboard

Apple aficionado John Gruber, who runs the well-respected Apple blog Daring Fireball, has joined the chorus of critics lambasting the new MacBook Pro keyboard. “This keyboard has to be one of the biggest design screwups in Apple history,” says Gruber.

“Everyone who buys a MacBook depends upon the keyboard and this keyboard is unreliable.” Casey Johnson writing for The Outline writes that “my one-year-old MacBook Pro’s keyboard stopped working if a single piece of dust slipped under there.”

Former Macworld Senior Editor Jason Snell adds that “if these problems are remotely as common as they seem to be, this is an altogether defective product that should be recalled.

 

[DjanSeriyAnaplian]

I find it absolutely incredible that the most valuable company in the world is given a pass by people over anything, frankly.
It is inconceivable that, with their cash pile, they aren't able to r&d a solution which works for all - it's not even conspiratorial greed, it's just lazy.