MBP keyboard article

[macjunk(ie)]

I find it absolutely incredible that the most valuable company in the world is given a pass by people over anything, frankly.
It is inconceivable that, with their cash pile, they aren't able to r&d a solution which works for all - it's not even conspiratorial greed, it's just lazy.

Yup. That is what surprises me the most. Some folks on this forum still talk about Apple as if they can do no wrong, compare it to sports cars and what not despite the atrocious keyboard, the primary source of input.

It simply is a reminder on how people’s perceptions are so vastly different. Unfortunately, that feeds Apple’s bad behaviour.

 

[BigMcGuire]

Again playing the devils advocate here so feel free to pick it apart harshly but... if this were such a big problem, don't you think there would be a LOT more people complaining about it? I mean, I was not easy or kind to my Macbook Air keyboard and I know most people aren't either. A lot of people eat at their desk and Macs or use their Macs outside when it's dusty / windy. If the Mac Pro's keyboard is this susceptible you'd think there would be a *LOT* more people complaining about it.

What hits me is the massive $500-$700 repair bills - the only way they'd do that is if they couldn't fix the problem in store right? I mean, I assume blowing air, slightly lifting the key with a knife and blowing air was tried? Or is Apple just sending these off and billing $700 for them? There are a fair number of users saying that blowing air fixes the stuck key problem.

I find it absolutely incredible that the most valuable company in the world is given a pass by people over anything, frankly.
It is inconceivable that, with their cash pile, they aren't able to r&d a solution which works for all - it's not even conspiratorial greed, it's just lazy.

Profit has become the ultimate priority amongst all other things. Quality takes a back seat to "new" and features that can sell because they look good. I see it all over even where I work. It's sad. No one realizes that there's value to keeping a customer with good quality items vs making the board / investors happy by coming out with new features every few months (of course all the quality developers fired because they cost too much).


I know these forums tend to be very hard on Apple. When the 8+ was released you had the crackling speaker problem - it got to be a huge thread and people were bashing Apple left and right for lack of quality --- all while I was awaiting my pre-ordered 8+. When I got mine, no problems - but up until I got mine, reading all the negativity was just a kill joy. The thread made it seem like EVERYONE was having this problem and quality was just completely down the tubes. My 8+ is flawless 6 mo later and my favorite iPhone to date.

But yeah, the trend to go for features/show over quality/longevity has me upset. Sadly, I put in my order over a week ago and my wife REALLY wants a Macbook Pro (I do too). We'll get AppleCare+ and for the price we paid we better get damn good usage out of these things.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

Again playing the devils advocate here so feel free to pick it apart harshly but... if this were such a big problem, don't you think there would be a LOT more people complaining about it? I mean, I was not easy or kind to my Macbook Air keyboard and I know most people aren't either. A lot of people eat at their desk and Macs or use their Macs outside when it's dusty / windy. If the Mac Pro's keyboard is this susceptible you'd think there would be a *LOT* more people complaining about it.

What hits me is the massive $500-$700 repair bills - the only way they'd do that is if they couldn't fix the problem in store right? I mean, I assume blowing air, slightly lifting the key with a knife and blowing air was tried? Or is Apple just sending these off and billing $700 for them? There are a fair number of users saying that blowing air fixes the stuck key problem.



Profit has become the ultimate priority amongst all other things. Quality takes a back seat to "new" and features that can sell because they look good. I see it all over even where I work. It's sad. No one realizes that there's value to keeping a customer with good quality items vs making the board / investors happy by coming out with new features every few months (of course all the quality developers fired because they cost too much).


I know these forums tend to be very hard on Apple. When the 8+ was released you had the crackling speaker problem - it got to be a huge thread and people were bashing Apple left and right for lack of quality --- all while I was awaiting my pre-ordered 8+. When I got mine, no problems - but up until I got mine, reading all the negativity was just a kill joy. The thread made it seem like EVERYONE was having this problem and quality was just completely down the tubes. My 8+ is flawless 6 mo later and my favorite iPhone to date.

But yeah, the trend to go for features/show over quality/longevity has me upset. Sadly, I put in my order over a week ago and my wife REALLY wants a Macbook Pro (I do too). We'll get AppleCare+ and for the price we paid we better get damn good usage out of these things.

Well it depends on who your ‘people’ are. In my circle of developers, people are ranting all over cause of the keyboard reliability and the wastefulness of the touch bar. It is on personal blogs, twitter, the water cooler and the occasional swearing and banging the tables in my office

For all you know, your keyboard might last a while without you ever experiencing any problem. To me though, the reliability surprise is detrimental to my career. My 2011 crashed on me (GPU failure) while I was programming for a job interview! After that, i have sweared off devices that throw reliability surprises. Why would anyone deserve that treatment after paying top dollar?

 

[profH]

Well it depends on who your ‘people’ are. In my circle of developers, people are ranting all over cause of the keyboard reliability and the wastefulness of the touch bar. It is on personal blogs, twitter, the water cooler and the occasional swearing and banging the tables in my office

For all you know, your keyboard might last a while without you ever experiencing any problem. To me though, the reliability surprise is detrimental to my career. My 2011 crashed on me (GPU failure) while I was programming for a job interview! After that, i have sweared off devices that throw reliability surprises. Why would anyone deserve that treatment after paying top dollar?

I know a lot of professionals that own these laptops (including myself) - not a single one really likes them. The entire product line is a big fail, surviving on the fact that we are all too invested in the Mac ecosphere at this point to switch given that we have many other things occupying our attention.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Anybody here ever pop by a store and use a ThinkPad keyboard?

I've done this a couple times over the last few months and I just can't believe how wonderful they feel to type on!!

Shame on Apple for being in this situation.

Nothing about the keyboard needing to be thin necessitates the meh key feel/travel and God awful reliability of what they put out here… This is all on them and they are alone with this problem
[doublepost=1525021086][/doublepost]

I know a lot of professionals that own these laptops (including myself) - not a single one really likes them. The entire product line is a big fail, surviving on the fact that we are all too invested in the Mac ecosphere at this point to switch given that we have many other things occupying our attention.

Me too… Everybody I know that has one just tolerates it.
That is not good for long-term

 

[Queen6]

Yup. That is what surprises me the most. Some folks on this forum still talk about Apple as if they can do no wrong, compare it to sports cars and what not despite the atrocious keyboard, the primary source of input.

It simply is a reminder on how people’s perceptions are so vastly different. Unfortunately, that feeds Apple’s bad behaviour.

Exactly the more that blindly buy, the more that excuse & exonerate Apple, the more that deify Apple, the more likely Apple will continue to dilute and produce ever more time limited hardware with shoddy software.

Given Apple's extensive margins and self-proclaimed superiority we should all be holding Apple to a higher standard and the current MBP falls very short indeed for many...

Q-6

 

[Falhófnir]

Most recently (~4 days ago), John Gruber has voiced his opinion about these keyboards, adding to the pool of notable people who have concerns with Apple's butterfly keybords:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Curre...ds-lambasted-by-Apple-community.301414.0.html

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/04/25/johnston-mbp-keyboard

It’s taken a while but looks like the backlash is finally building momentum - hopefully Apple have a solution we’ll on its way to completion and haven’t just been in reaction mode over this, because once it reaches critical mass they could end up with serious egg on their faces and another black mark even their superlative PR department can’t erase...

 

[turbineseaplane]

It’s taken a while but looks like the backlash is finally building momentum - hopefully Apple have a solution we’ll on its way to completion and haven’t just been in reaction mode over this, because once it reaches critical mass they could end up with serious egg on their faces and another black mark even their superlative PR department can’t erase...

You know it's widespread and a problem if even Gruber mentions it.
He is normally so far in the bag for Apple he can't see the daylight outside.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy listening to and reading him but I keep in mind what I'm reading and what to expect.

He is somewhat dependent on access with Apple and he also has now gotten the taste of having Apple execs on his live show every year so you know he doesn't want to irritate or piss them off…

..So him mentioning it really is a big deal

 

[BigMcGuire]

Anybody here ever pop by a store and use a ThinkPad keyboard?

I've done this a couple times over the last few months and I just can't believe how wonderful they feel to type on!!

One of the first laptops my dad let me use (~1997?) - an IBM Thinkpad 365xd. Had a beautiful keyboard that was so nice to type on. <cough>. Thing handled drops like they never happened. . I didn't take really good care of it.
[doublepost=1525022108][/doublepost]

You know it's widespread and a problem if even Gruber mentions it.
He is normally so far in the bag for Apple he can't see the daylight outside.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy listening to and reading him but I keep in mind what I'm reading and what to expect.

He is somewhat dependent on access with Apple and he also has now gotten the taste of having Apple execs on his live show every year so you know he doesn't want to irritate or piss them off…

..So him mentioning it really is a big deal

Sucks, of course this all happens RIGHT when I can buy a Macbook Pro. lol

 

[turbineseaplane]

Wow! LOOK at those wonderful arrow keys!!!!
I will bet that was freaking amazing to type on

 

[Queen6]

Most recently (~4 days ago), John Gruber has voiced his opinion about these keyboards, adding to the pool of notable people who have concerns with Apple's butterfly keybords:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Curre...ds-lambasted-by-Apple-community.301414.0.html

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/04/25/johnston-mbp-keyboard

Another very public statement, just exactly when will Apple react and stop treating it's customers with such disdain...

Forbes:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2018/04/26/apple-macbook-pro-keyboard-fault-oline-opinion/

Q-6

 

[BigMcGuire]

Wow! LOOK at those wonderful arrow keys!!!!
I will bet that was freaking amazing to type on

Sure was. I could go full speed and even with all the dust on it, it never flinched once. It was faithful till the end.

 

[Falhófnir]

Sucks, of course this all happens RIGHT when I can buy a Macbook Pro. lol

I guess at least if it prompts a response from Apple you'll likely benefit from it in terms of reassurance it will be sorted if you do experience a problem

 

[maflynn]

And offer the previous owners a 50% discount to get the new keyboard in the 2016-2017 notebooks.

That will never happen, Apple never admits to defects, they dance around them, such as providing repair programs, but they'll not wholesale discounts like that. I'm not saying its a bad idea, just one that is highly unlikely even if a class action suit was filed and won.

 

[Fishrrman]

maflynn wrote:
"I'm not saying its a bad idea, just one that is highly unlikely even if a class action suit was filed and won."

I don't believe there have been any class action suits regarding KeyGate™ yet.

That will happen after enough warranties have "run out" and Apple starts presenting folks with bills for the full cost of the keyboard replacements...

 

[aevan]

Yup. That is what surprises me the most. Some folks on this forum still talk about Apple as if they can do no wrong,

Who are these people? Seriously? Everyone here is critical of the keyboard issue, I haven’t seen one post where people are acting like Apple is perfect. This is a false narrative that some of you here are spreading because people are not fully agreeing with you, always talking about some blind loyalists who ignore your righteous calls to abandon Apple.

Just because people are not jumping ship, doesn’t mean they are religious zealots you make them out to be.

Seriously, find me one post here in this topic where anyone is claiming “Apple can do no wrong”. Just one!

 

[macintoshmac]

That will never happen, Apple never admits to defects, they dance around them, such as providing repair programs, but they'll not wholesale discounts like that. I'm not saying its a bad idea, just one that is highly unlikely even if a class action suit was filed and won.

True! They'd never do that ever.

 

[MacFather]

Deleted.

 

[Sam Luis Obispo]

The 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard is failing twice as often in the first year of use as the 2014 or 2015 MacBook Pro models, and the 2017 is better, but not by a lot.

source: http://appleinsider.com/articles/18...s-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models

It makes you wonder if the anything can be pulled from the total number of service tickets. Pulling from the article:
2014 MBP = 2120 service events in the first year (118 keyboards)
2015 MBP = 1904 service events [presumably from the first year of service] (114 keyboards)
2016 MBP = 1402 Warranty events inn the first year of service (165 keyboards)

In the first year of service, does the 2016 MBP have lower overall problems than the previous year (despite the larger number and percentage of keyboard problems)?

 

[impulse462]

It makes you wonder if the anything can be pulled from the total number of service tickets. Pulling from the article:
2014 MBP = 2120 service events in the first year (118 keyboards)
2015 MBP = 1904 service events [presumably from the first year of service] (114 keyboards)
2016 MBP = 1402 Warranty events inn the first year of service (165 keyboards)

In the first year of service, does the 2016 MBP have lower overall problems than the previous year (despite the larger number and percentage of keyboard problems)?

if anything this suggests that the computers are doing better in all other areas and the keyboards do have more of a problem (about 2x more keyboard related problems) compared to 2014 & 2015

 

[Altis]

Anybody here ever pop by a store and use a ThinkPad keyboard?

I've done this a couple times over the last few months and I just can't believe how wonderful they feel to type on!

I just picked up a ThinkPad, almost brand-new, with i5, 8 GB DDR4, SSD, 1080p IPS, fingerprint scanner, and all the ports I actually use, and with all user-replaceable/upgradeable parts -- with almost a year of warranty still........ for $290 (CAD$375) all-in -- 1/6 the cost of a new 13" MacBook Pro Non-TB.

The keyboard is second to none, as far as laptops go. Dedicated home/end/pg up/pg down/forward delete/printscreen keys, ~2.0mm of key travel, textured keycaps, nearly full-size arrow keys, and nicely weighted. It's hard to think of how it could be improved without going full Topre switches.

Check out the key relief:

It gets the job done for me. I like that it has two batteries, one external that can be hotswapped. For $290 all-in, it's far beyond what I could expect.

 

[macintoshmac]

I just picked up a ThinkPad, almost brand-new, with i5, 8 GB DDR4, SSD, 1080p IPS, fingerprint scanner, and all the ports I actually use, and with all user-replaceable/upgradeable parts -- with almost a year of warranty still........ for $290 (CAD$375) all-in -- 1/6 the cost of a new 13" MacBook Pro Non-TB.

The keyboard is second to none, as far as laptops go. Dedicated home/end/pg up/pg down/forward delete/printscreen keys, ~2.0mm of key travel, textured keycaps, nearly full-size arrow keys, and nicely weighted. It's hard to think of how it could be improved without going full Topre switches.

Check out the key relief:

It's gets the job done for me. I like that it has two batteries, one external that can be hotswapped. For $290 all-in, it's far beyond what I could expect.

For that price, the hardware is second to none in terms of what's offered. Quality and reliability I can't say as I do not know.

 

[doitdada]

It makes you wonder if the anything can be pulled from the total number of service tickets. Pulling from the article:
2014 MBP = 2120 service events in the first year (118 keyboards)
2015 MBP = 1904 service events [presumably from the first year of service] (114 keyboards)
2016 MBP = 1402 Warranty events inn the first year of service (165 keyboards)

In the first year of service, does the 2016 MBP have lower overall problems than the previous year (despite the larger number and percentage of keyboard problems)?

It's actually only a 45% increase in keyboard events from 2015 to 2016. You may have to take account for that this was a redesign, a new release, and more computers may have been sold than in 2014 and 2015, which didn't offer any worthy upgrades except for ticks in clock speed, force touch and faster SSD.

 

[allonym]

The 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard is failing twice as often in the first year of use as the 2014 or 2015 MacBook Pro models, and the 2017 is better, but not by a lot.

source: http://appleinsider.com/articles/18...s-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models

Not 'failing twice as often' exactly, more like 'twice as likely that a failure is due to the keyboard'. That's different, but still misses the big picture (IMO).

2014 MBP = 2120 service events, 118 keyboard
2015 MBP = 1904 service events, 114 keyboard
2016 MBP = 1402 service events, 165 keyboard
2017 MBP = 1161 service events, 94 keyboard

Ratio non-keyboard:keyboard service events:

17.0:1
15.7:1
7.5:1
11.4:1

So with the current model, it's >10x more likely that something other than the keyboard will need fixing.

 

[aevan]

Not 'failing twice as often' exactly, more like 'twice as likely that a failure is due to the keyboard'. That's different, but still misses the big picture (IMO).

2014 MBP = 2120 service events, 118 keyboard
2015 MBP = 1904 service events, 114 keyboard
2016 MBP = 1402 service events, 165 keyboard
2017 MBP = 1161 service events, 94 keyboard

Ratio non-keyboard:keyboard service events:

17.0:1
15.7:1
7.5:1
11.4:1

So with the current model, it's >10x more likely that something other than the keyboard will need fixing.

Ok, so not defending Apple here, but I'm trying to figure this out. If this data is correct, it seems that 2017 actually had less reported issues with the keyboard than 2014 and 2015 - and that other service events have reduced more, therefore the larger percentage of keyboard issues in the number of total repairs.

Again, this is not me saying "see, you see, the keyboard issue is blown out of proportion" - but the article is not clear to me.

Because what it says is that Apple actually made a keyboard (the 2017 revision) that is just as reliable (there were actually less keyboard service events for the latest MBP than with 2014 and 2015 models) while the number of every other issue with the laptop is now smaller (so the percentage of the keyboard issues is higher).

What I'm saying is this: imagine you get 8 throat pains and 2 headaches every year. Then, you find medicine that cuts those throat pains and now you have only 2 of them every year, so 2 throat pains and 2 headaches. You could say that while in the previous years, headaches were only 20% of your total medical issues, this last year they were HALF of your issues! Technically, you are right, but it sounds like things are getting worse, while they are, in fact, getting better.

This is what the article looks like to me. Am I missing something here?