Miami building collapsed.

[Huntn]

June 2021 Miami Condo collapses- Eye opener.

Shocking video shows moment condo near Miami Beach collapses

Shocking video shows the moment a wing of a Miami condo complex collapsed – killing at least one person and leaving several others injured.

nypost.com

 

[Herdfan]

😥 😥 😥

An absolutely horrible tragedy.

 

[GermanSuplex]

How on earth do ocean-front properties only get inspected properly for structural integrity once every four decades? A lot can happen in a half a lifetime.

 

[Crowbot]

How on earth do ocean-front properties only get inspected properly for structural integrity once every four decades? A lot can happen in a half a lifetime.

They are on a building boom down there. Every open space is being built on. Also, regulation is a bit more lax so things like inspections get more flexible.

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

Building tall buildings on what is a very narrow sand spit, with water on both sides (and presumably seeping under the foundations) seems to be, now what's the word here?, unwise, silly, Absolutely Stupid.

Not to mention sea level rise, stronger hurricanes and other weather events, building warping due to average increase in temperature.

Sadly, I think that this is just going to be the first of many building failures along that strip of sand.

 

[jbarley]

Just watched a TV documentry the other night about SinkHoles.
Seems that Florida is near the top of the list on places to stay away from.

 

[lostngone]

Building tall buildings on what is a very narrow sand spit, with water on both sides (and presumably seeping under the foundations) seems to be, now what's the word here?, unwise, silly, Absolutely Stupid.

Not to mention sea level rise, stronger hurricanes and other weather events, building warping due to average increase in temperature.

Sadly, I think that this is just going to be the first of many building failures along that strip of sand.

I don’t think we have any clues yet on cause? It could have just as easily been some unlicensed contractor that was remodeling and decided to “open things up” a bit and removed a Load-bearing support/wall

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

I don’t think we have any clues yet on cause? It could have just as easily been some unlicensed contractor that was remodeling and decided to “open things up” a bit and removed a Load-bearing support/wall

I was thinking about that.
However, we have had a number of buildings in Sydney built and/or modified by shonky/incompetent builders*. These have all given indication of possible collapse by lots of creaking, groaning and large cracks showing in walls, floors and ceilings. I believe that the shopping centre in China that collapsed also gave warning, allowing evacuation, before collapsing.
Generally buildings that collapse without warning do so because of problems with the ground underneath them, either moving (earthquakes) or subsidence.

This is, of course, my own unguided opinion, unsupported by any real professional knowledge in building or geology.


* Our Government has regulations for these things, but believes in Self-Regulation, with a minimal of Inspection.

 

[A.Goldberg]

How on earth do ocean-front properties only get inspected properly for structural integrity once every four decades? A lot can happen in a half a lifetime.

Yeah, it’s quite crazy that’s the inspection interval for a residential building that large located directly on the water. My parents own a summer home on the water and I can say with experience everything falls apart very quickly due to salt and humidity.

I saw on the news reportedly the building was built in 1981 but in the early 90’s there were concerns it was sinking into the ground.

Up until 1930’s much of Florida, particularly
south FL, was an uninhabited swamp land that was unable to support human residence. In the 20’s a railroad was built to bring beach tourism and investment, and then everything got destroyed in a couple hurricanes and thousands of people died. So the Army Corp of Engineers built thousands of miles of levies and canals to actually make the land usable for agriculture and constructing buildings. In other words, if not for that decision FL might still largely be a most uninhabited marshland.

I know nothing of the geology of Miami, but generally speaking beaches aren’t great places to build tall buildings because you dig down 6ft and you’re in water. New York happens to be on bedrock which is why they can get away with so many tall buildings. Boston on the other hand is not and explains why there are conparitively far less super sky scrapers.


———

Back to the main topic, what a sickening tragedy. A building in America should not naturally implode like that. I can’t help being reminded of 9/11 watching the buildings collapse and for days watching on TV as firefighters pulled out trapped victims from the rubble. I hope they find survivors, but it doesn’t seem like they’ve made much progress. At least there is some comfort in knowing this happened at 1:30AM and a lot of people were probably sleeping and were unable to experience the terror.

I can’t wait for the conspiracy theorists to start claiming this was an “inside job”.

.

 

[pshufd]

Building tall buildings on what is a very narrow sand spit, with water on both sides (and presumably seeping under the foundations) seems to be, now what's the word here?, unwise, silly, Absolutely Ukingfay Stupid.

Not to mention sea level rise, stronger hurricanes and other weather events, building warping due to average increase in temperature.

Sadly, I think that this is just going to be the first of many building failures along that strip of sand.

My son used to live in a tower in Boston that was 40 stories high with a fair amount of water around the Boston area. His office is in this building now. It was built in the 1970s and they did routine maintenance while he was living there. And sometimes it was annoying. Massachusetts is a highly-regulated state and Boston is a highly-regulated city. I have no doubt that people are sometimes paid to look the other way but I think that the presence of a ton of regulation means that at least some of it will get done. The other thing is that the building is owned by one of the big property management company that specializes in high-end properties and they wouldn't want their reputation stained by something like this; along with the resulting financial repercussions.

I can not recall something like this happening before in the United States. Our HOA inspects our buildings annually and schedules maintenance in the Spring, Summer and Fall. Every year. I am thinking some combination of inspection and engineering issues when it was built and lack of annual inspections over a long period of time. I just do not see how this could happen if you're doing maintenance correctly unless a bunch of people were paid to look the other way.

 

[pshufd]

Yeah, it’s quite crazy that’s the inspection interval for a residential building that large located directly on the water. My parents own a summer home on the water and I can say with experience everything falls apart very quickly due to salt and humidity.

I saw on the news reportedly the building was built in 1981 but in the early 90’s there were concerns it was sinking into the ground.

Up until 1930’s much of Florida, particularly
south FL, was an uninhabited swamp land that was unable to support human residence. In the 20’s a railroad was built to bring beach tourism and investment, and then everything got destroyed in a couple hurricanes and thousands of people died. So the Army Corp of Engineers built thousands of miles of levies and canals to actually make the land usable for agriculture and constructing buildings. In other words, if not for that decision FL might still largely be a most uninhabited marshland.

I know nothing of the geology of Miami, but generally speaking beaches aren’t great places to build tall buildings because you dig down 6ft and you’re in water. New York happens to be on bedrock which is why they can get away with so many tall buildings. Boston on the other hand is not and explains why there are conparitively far less super sky scrapers.


———

Back to the main topic, what a sickening tragedy. A building in America should not naturally implode like that. I can’t help being reminded of 9/11 watching the buildings collapse and for days watching on TV as firefighters pulled out trapped victims from the rubble. I hope they find survivors, but it doesn’t seem like they’ve made much progress. At least there is some comfort in knowing this happened at 1:30AM and a lot of people were probably sleeping and were unable to experience the terror.

I can’t wait for the conspiracy theorists to start claiming this was an “inside job”.

.

What I want to know is why building management wasn't inspecting this every year.

 

[pshufd]

I read a WSJ article and it looks like the condo owners formed the association so they had a standard owner-governance model. It's similar to town management - if management is incompetent (the are just elected owners to manage it), you can get disasters, just like towns, cities, states and countries.

 

[Crowbot]

Yeah, it’s quite crazy that’s the inspection interval for a residential building that large located directly on the water. My parents own a summer home on the water and I can say with experience everything falls apart very quickly due to salt and humidity.

I saw on the news reportedly the building was built in 1981 but in the early 90’s there were concerns it was sinking into the ground.

Up until 1930’s much of Florida, particularly
south FL, was an uninhabited swamp land that was unable to support human residence. In the 20’s a railroad was built to bring beach tourism and investment, and then everything got destroyed in a couple hurricanes and thousands of people died. So the Army Corp of Engineers built thousands of miles of levies and canals to actually make the land usable for agriculture and constructing buildings. In other words, if not for that decision FL might still largely be a most uninhabited marshland.

I know nothing of the geology of Miami, but generally speaking beaches aren’t great places to build tall buildings because you dig down 6ft and you’re in water. New York happens to be on bedrock which is why they can get away with so many tall buildings. Boston on the other hand is not and explains why there are conparitively far less super sky scrapers.


———

Back to the main topic, what a sickening tragedy. A building in America should not naturally implode like that. I can’t help being reminded of 9/11 watching the buildings collapse and for days watching on TV as firefighters pulled out trapped victims from the rubble. I hope they find survivors, but it doesn’t seem like they’ve made much progress. At least there is some comfort in knowing this happened at 1:30AM and a lot of people were probably sleeping and were unable to experience the terror.

I can’t wait for the conspiracy theorists to start claiming this was an “inside job”.

.

Manhattan, in NY, is a mix. Midtown and the southern end are mostly solid bedrock so you can have buildings like the Empire State and World Trade Center. In between it's dirt. So in a major earthquake midtown would be fine but my building would sink into the ground due to liquefaction.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Manhattan, in NY, is a mix. Midtown and the southern end are mostly solid bedrock so you can have buildings like the Empire State and World Trade Center. In between it's dirt. So in a major earthquake midtown would be fine but my building would sink into the ground due to liquefaction.

Haha, we’ll I hope that doesn’t happen. Much of downtown Boston aka Back Bay used to be a tidal bay in the Charles River that got filled in because of a failed mill/dam project they built. So they decided to fill in the reservoir they created so they could sell the land.

You can tell the ground isn’t the most stable looking at old brownstones buildings that are totally crooked. It’s also why there’s essentially only two skyscrapers (if you consider a “skyscraper” ~50+ floors) in that part of the city and not particularly tall- the Pru is ~52 floors and I believe Hancock Tower is 60-something. The next tallest building there is significantly shorter.

I can’t think of any other place in the US where they build towering apartmentright on the beach other than Florida. Maybe parts of Texas and other Gulf States? That’s definitely something you don’t see around here.

After I posted my last post I was watching ABC news and they were interviewing a local architect. Apparently those buildings are just auger shafts into the ground. I suppose that’s the standard building procedure. I wouldn’t think concrete buildings like that handle shifting of the soft ground below them that well. They mentioned that the building’s integrity must have been compromised but the weight on the roof from on-going construction may have been a factor.

If I lived in that area, especially in similarly aged buildings, I would be pretty concerned that my home was about to implode.

 

[pshufd]

The two Longfellow Towers near MGH are 36 floors and a couple of parking levels underneath.

I have read that many buildings in Beacon Hill have sinking issues. Many were built in the early 1800s. Something that property owners have to manage.

I can’t recall these kinds of problems in New Hampshire outside of oceanfront property.

It’s called The Granite State for a reason.

 

[Crowbot]

Haha, we’ll I hope that doesn’t happen. Much of downtown Boston aka Back Bay used to be a tidal bay in the Charles River that got filled in because of a failed mill/dam project they built. So they decided to fill in the reservoir they created so they could sell the land.

You can tell the ground isn’t the most stable looking at old brownstones buildings that are totally crooked. It’s also why there’s essentially only two skyscrapers (if you consider a “skyscraper” ~50+ floors) in that part of the city and not particularly tall- the Pru is ~52 floors and I believe Hancock Tower is 60-something. The next tallest building there is significantly shorter.

I can’t think of any other place in the US where they build towering apartmentright on the beach other than Florida. Maybe parts of Texas and other Gulf States? That’s definitely something you don’t see around here.

After I posted my last post I was watching ABC news and they were interviewing a local architect. Apparently those buildings are just auger shafts into the ground. I suppose that’s the standard building procedure. I wouldn’t think concrete buildings like that handle shifting of the soft ground below them that well. They mentioned that the building’s integrity must have been compromised but the weight on the roof from on-going construction may have been a factor.

If I lived in that area, especially in similarly aged buildings, I would be pretty concerned that my home was about to implode.

Thanks.
I lived in Back Bay when I was at BU. So I traded one sinkhole for another? Great!

 

[Huntn]

I don’t think we have any clues yet on cause? It could have just as easily been some unlicensed contractor that was remodeling and decided to “open things up” a bit and removed a Load-bearing support/wall

This was a known issue apparently the building was settling and someone involved in building safety in Miami new about it. Word is, it was not considered an immediate issue. 👀

Mom of Rescued Teen ID’d as First Victim of Miami Condo Collapse, 159 Still Missing

Stacie Fang, whose 15-year-old son Jonah was dramatically rescued from the rubble, is the first person to be identified as a victim of the horrifying condo collapse.

www.thedailybeast.com

It remains unclear what caused the collapse, but the Champlain Towers complex in Surfside has been suffering from structural issues for years. One expert said the complex had been slowly sinking into the earth for decades, and it’s known to have been the subject of at least one lawsuit over the upkeep of the structure’s outer walls. The building had also been undergoing some roof repair at the time of the collapse.

Miami building collapse: Possible causes explained by area expert

A condominium collapse in Surfside, Florida, on Thursday morning has left many wondering what caused the massive implosion.

www.foxbusiness.com

 

[Huntn]

What I want to know is why building management wasn't inspecting this every year.

I wonder how hard it is to inspect, and wonder how they determine a building is sinking gradually.

 

[pshufd]

I wonder how hard it is to inspect, and wonder how they determine a building is sinking gradually.

I think that military-grade GPS would be able to tell you if it's shrinking or otherwise moving. Drones are used to visually inspect buildings these days so that's a lot easier.

 

[Huntn]

Building tall buildings on what is a very narrow sand spit, with water on both sides (and presumably seeping under the foundations) seems to be, now what's the word here?, unwise, silly, Absolutely Ukingfay Stupid.

Not to mention sea level rise, stronger hurricanes and other weather events, building warping due to average increase in temperature.

Sadly, I think that this is just going to be the first of many building failures along that strip of sand.

I always thought foundations of large buildings had to go into rock, otherwise they would settle, but I’m no engineer.

 

[pshufd]

I always thought foundations had to go into rock.

Those buildings may become very hard to insure.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I always thought foundations of large buildings had to go into rock, otherwise they would settle, but I’m no engineer.

My father is an civil engineer, and I grew up learning about building/bridge design. I started out Civil engineering in undergrad but enjoyed software engineering more so I switched majors.

There are many areas where rock may not be available, they use a series of reinforced concrete piles burred by pile drivers to reinforce the foundation. It can go into firmer soil or if it is available rock.

Pile Foundations | Types of Piles | Cassions

This page explains pile foundations and how they work in buildings.

www.understandconstruction.com

Inspections typically are cut back just like everything else, reducing taxes. Just like everything else, you don't need government regulations, until you do...

 

[pshufd]

Inspections typically are cut back just like everything else, reducing taxes. Just like everything else, you don't need government regulations, until you do...

You get what you pay for.

The government may have been lax in regulations but there was nothing preventing the condo association from doing them.

 

[JT2002TJ]

You get what you pay for.

The government may have been lax in regulations but there was nothing preventing the condo association from doing them.

To me, public safety issues should not be left to private companies. They have a mandate to make money, or to cut expenses. When something goes horrifically wrong like this, it is a public safety issue, not just a condo association issue.

Now, if there were supposed to be inspections, and they were paid for and not performed, heads will role (as they should).

 

[pshufd]

To me, public safety issues should not be left to private companies. They have a mandate to make money, or to cut expenses. When something goes horrifically wrong like this, it is a public safety issue, not just a condo association issue.

Now, if there were supposed to be inspections, and they were paid for and not performed, heads will role (as they should).

The Condo Association is the owners themselves. They elect a Board of Directors and the BoD either hires contractors to do work or they hire a management company to oversee and hire contractors to do the work. There isn't necessarily any company involved. This building has a history of maintenance complaints so it might have been a condo setup where the owners were cheap and didn't want to spend.

You have some that are proactive about maintenance and improvement and some where most of the owners want to spend as little as possible. My view is that the latter group wind up spending more in the long run because stuff breaks at inconvenient times instead of maintenance to keep everything in good, working order.