Miami building collapsed.

[sevoneone]

Before building collapse, $9M+ in repairs needed

Owners of units in a collapsed Florida oceanfront condo building were just days away from starting to pay for more than $9 million in major repairs that were recommended three years ago

abcnews.go.com

Sounds like the association has been trying to figure out how to pay for the repairs for 3-years. There were 136 units and owners were getting stuck splitting the bill:

Owners at Champlain Towers South were facing payments of anywhere from $80,000 for a one-bedroom unit to $330,000 or so for a penthouse, to be paid all at once or in installments. Their first deadline was July 1.

I can't imagine the backlash and BS that had to be cut through to get to the point where every resident was, willing or not, basically forced to pay an additional house payment for their home to have any value at all. I'm sure it took 3 years just to get through any legal challenges and bs fro residents trying to get out of it. What does someone with poor credit even do in that situation? Someone that was retired and thought they were set for the rest of their life? Sucks. Not as bad as the disaster that has resulted from the delay, but it still sucks.

 

[R.T.J.]

Before building collapse, $9M+ in repairs needed

Owners of units in a collapsed Florida oceanfront condo building were just days away from starting to pay for more than $9 million in major repairs that were recommended three years ago

abcnews.go.com

Sounds like the association has been trying to figure out how to pay for the repairs for 3-years. There were 136 units and owners were getting stuck splitting the bill:



I can't imagine the backlash and BS that had to be cut through to get to the point where every resident was, willing or not, basically forced to pay an additional house payment for their home to have any value at all. I'm sure it took 3 years just to get through any legal challenges and bs fro residents trying to get out of it. What does someone with poor credit even do in that situation? Someone that was retired and thought they were set for the rest of their life? Sucks. Not as bad as the disaster that has resulted from the delay, but it still sucks.

I never heard of a disaster like this with such a high price where the people were sitting just fine until the building collapsed. I mean... if the situation was actually as bad, they would have been evacuated. There is way more to the story. And else, if the pool was filtering water, that would make the pool collapse, not the entire building.

 

[VulchR]

The area to the right of the pool is an elevated deck, possibly storage or parking beneath.

AH. Just so. Yet it collapsed without any debris falling directly on it. It was cited in the 40-year inspection as an area that had improper water drainage and thus has damage to the concrete. I suppose it will take some time to sort out the chain of events that led to this, but in general it is a foolish man who builds his home on the sand.

 

[VulchR]

Look at this picture. In any normal city, everybody jumps to remove the rubble when a building collapses... except in Miami. What better example of the lack of everything that city has? No one is on the pile doing a search, they are waiting for some "ultrasound equipment" to do the job. By that time they could have removed half of the debris and fins survivor or bodies. But 3 days have passed already and the pile still intact.

Now... do you really think people are following codes? All those buildings are rotting, this one is the first one falling. If you do not touch them, in 20 years they all will fall. Is that serious.

View attachment 1797956

I also wonder about where the crowds of people combing the rubble were. I seem to recall in some disasters in Turkey and other countries the whole community coming out to remove rubble, including the construction industry. Mind you the site seems wholly unsafe to me, so maybe it is better to leave it to the professionals.

 

[Expos of 1969]

What a tragic situation. I purchased a condo a few years ago, lived in it for three years and then sold it. Never again. Too much conflict between the management company and owners, between various owners, between resident owners and renters etc. Some owners wanted to spend lavishly, some didn't want to spend 5 cents and on and on.

 

[VulchR]

What a tragic situation. I purchased a condo a few years ago, lived in it for three years and then sold it. Never again. Too much conflict between the management company and owners, between various owners, between resident owners and renters etc. Some owners wanted to spend lavishly, some didn't want to spend 5 cents and on and on.

Well the Condominium Owner's Association at the last place I owned in the US were a bunch of dictators. They objected to my putting up a bird feeder because - wait for it - it attracted birds. Now before some bright spark brings up bird poop and rodents attracted by seed, my condo was on the ground floor and the feeder was by a fence, some 10 yards from the building. Meanwhile, the trees on the site that were used for landscaping attracted robins, blue jays, mocking birds (damned aggressive ones at that), etc.

 

[SactoGuy18]

You wonder were there corners cut during the original construction and it made the concrete and structural metal rebar HIGHLY vulnerable to damage from ocean air exposure.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Look at this picture. In any normal city, everybody jumps to remove the rubble when a building collapses... except in Miami. What better example of the lack of everything that city has? No one is on the pile doing a search, they are waiting for some "ultrasound equipment" to do the job. By that time they could have removed half of the debris and fins survivor or bodies. But 3 days have passed already and the pile still intact.

Now... do you really think people are following codes? All those buildings are rotting, this one is the first one falling. If you do not touch them, in 20 years they all will fall. Is that serious.

View attachment 1797956

The other part of the building could collapse at any moment. There could also be gas leaks, and the possibility of a sinkhole. The LAST thing you want is a bunch of untrained citizens to be on the rubble in such an unsafe location.

 

[R.T.J.]

I also wonder about where the crowds of people combing the rubble were. I seem to recall in some disasters in Turkey and other countries the whole community coming out to remove rubble, including the construction industry. Mind you the site seems wholly unsafe to me, so maybe it is better to leave it to the professionals.

Yes, in any country except in the U.S. I remember when I moved to this country I got a job at the Hyatt hotel. an old lady fell to the floor and I went to help her stand and my manager told me "not to touch her" because she could have had something broken and I was not a paramedic... WHAT? The lack of social skills is abysmal! In the U.S. NO ONE is going to help you, that is why everybody if they need company, get a pet.

The other part of the building could collapse at any moment. There could also be gas leaks, and the possibility of a sinkhole. The LAST thing you want is a bunch of untrained citizens to be on the rubble in such an unsafe location.

Dude, rescuing is not for you.

 

[44267547]

The other part of the building could collapse at any moment. There could also be gas leaks, and the possibility of a sinkhole. The LAST thing you want is a bunch of untrained citizens to be on the rubble in such an unsafe location.

Exactly. It’s a totally different spectrum from utilizing a bunch of randomized people into the woods looking for a missing individual with little to no posing hazards —versus— sending a group of untrained/unskilled people to a mass destruction site with loads of potential hazards to search for people not even knowing what to look for. For a catastrophe as large as this building is, you need an incident command post, recruiting special teams across the country that are trained in these types of events, not randomized people off the street that have no idea what they’re doing, that would only exacerbate to the problem.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Yes, in any country except in the U.S. I remember when I moved to this country I got a job at the Hyatt hotel. an old lady fell to the floor and I went to help her stand and my manager told me "not to touch her" because she could have had something broken and I was not a paramedic... WHAT? The lack of social skills is abysmal! In the U.S. NO ONE is going to help you, that is why everybody if they need company, get a pet.

Well, you'd be both right depending on the circumstances. A hard fall in which a bone (or worse, hips) could be broken? yep, I wouldn't touch or help (meant as help to stand up or move) because it's very easy to make thing worse especially with elderly individuals. A simple slip and fall? I would help. A lot depends on the injured person's reaction which is usually very telling. Actually it happened to me last week during a martial arts workout. Kid fell bad on his leg during some kicking drill, as I and a couple of other students automatically went to help him (he was screaming in pain) another adult student that is an MD yelled at us "do not touch him" and then proceeded to help. As far as I know it ended up being just a badly sprained ankle and nothing broken.

Dude, rescuing is not for you.

Depends. I would've helped in the immediate, but once the pros arrive and say "do not do it" I do not do it. Rule #1 in rescue: don't play the stupid hero.

 

[44267547]

Including myself, I don’t think people realize how large of a scale that rubble is. And I admit, I’m not trained for any type of special response in terms of mass hazards like that, but by no means, this has nothing to do with being ‘daring or fearless’ recruiting randomized people off the street with no formal training or business to be there. Those specialized people that are assisting Miami, are recruited from across the United States, and some from my very own state are there right now. And all of those people have extensive training to respond.

Aside from all the search and rescue, I can’t even begin to imagine what it’s like to be an incident commander at a site like that. To delegate the entire task force of assigning roles and responsibilities to all the mutual aid from agencies across the nation. Really, it’s insane to think about how big of a project this really is to do so in a timely fashion, but keep everybody safe at the same time, all in a 24 hour operation.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Including myself, I don’t think people realize how large of a scale that rubble is. And I admit, I’m not trained for any type of special response in terms of mass hazards like that, but by no means, this has nothing to do with being ‘daring or fearless’ recruiting randomized people off the street with no formal training or business to be there. Those specialized people that are assisting Miami, are recruited from across the United States, and some from my very own state are there right now. And all of those people have extensive training to respond.

Aside from all the search and rescue, I can’t even begin to imagine what it’s like to be an incident commander at a site like that. To delegate the entire task force of assigning roles and responsibilities to all the mutual aid from agencies across the nation. Really, it’s insane to think about how big of a project this really is to do so in a timely fashion, but keep everybody safe at the same time, all in a 24 hour operation.

Precisely. This disaster is big and of a very difficult nature with many unknowns (air pockets? sinkholes? structural damage? flammables? corrosion?) that need to be dealt with. I am sure that the EOC is working day and night, probably on just a few hours of sleep as this requires coordination with several different teams with different skillsets and different hierarchies, all of this with the knowledge that finding any survivor would be close to a miracle. This scenario is a nightmare scenario under all circumstances.

this has nothing to do with being ‘daring or fearless’

I am sure that like many special response teams the last thing they need is someone daring and fearless. They need cold heads that are able to work despite their fear. And certainly they don't need anyone "daring" which would put everyone else at risk. It kind of brings to my mind what one of the Band of Brothers survivors (the actual guy, not the fictional one) said, something like: "we were all afraid, but our hard training allowed to be functional despite our fear, and that's what allowed us to survive".

 

[TheIntruder]

I'm guessing so. As it's a condo. Is there even a building owner or is it just owned the condominium association?

If the association is at fault for not doing repairs. That's got to be a legal quagmire. I'd think that all owners, including those who perished, would be guilty in any lawsuit or criminal liability. As I'd think some repair this big would have been put to a vote.

Plus if they didn't do the recommended repairs. Will the insurers have to pay anything? As the condo owners were notified of an issue and took no action.

This piece should answer your questions.

A common area like that building's pool deck, or garage, which have been reported to need major repair, are certainly collectively owned by the residents.

These concepts can also apply outside of a condo, or townhouse-style building where units are attached.

A development with single-family homes on separate lots can also include common areas, both undeveloped, or developed like a pool, tennis courts, or club house, which are governed by the HOA.

If any potential properly purchase involves an HOA, examining the CC&Rs is part of the buyer's due diligence.

(And in this case, the condition of the building, and the major repairs needed are (were) required disclosures to prospective buyers.)

 

[sevoneone]

I never heard of a disaster like this with such a high price where the people were sitting just fine until the building collapsed. I mean... if the situation was actually as bad, they would have been evacuated. There is way more to the story. And else, if the pool was filtering water, that would make the pool collapse, not the entire building.

This was an obvious problem of contractors being negligent and city officials being bribed.

By all accounts, it sounds like they were told there was no immediate risk, just that there were $9m in repairs to be done 3 years ago. That doesn’t eliminate the possibility of negligence. Clearly, someone or something was severely negligent. Doesn’t mean it was malicious or purposeful though.

Collecting that much money from the residents is no cakewalk and bound to be a nightmare of red tape.

I don’t know much about Florida, was there supposed to be a local or state safety net to assist or ensure repairs could have started while residents secured funding for their portion of the costs?

Was there any corruption internally or externally? Did some shady stuff go down to prevent public funds from being diverted for an emergency repair? Or, was there nothing but regular people and an association backed into a corner tragically taking to long to explore any options they had before having to make the inconvenient choice?

My point is this seems like it was a financial disaster everyone was ignoring long before it was a physical one. Asking 136 middle income individuals/families to basically loose everything they’ve worked for to avoid losing everything they’ve worked for is a major society fail that was begging to end in catastrophe.

 

[hallux]

@R.T.J. As soon as the site came under the control of a fire department or other public entity they want nothing more than to prevent being sued by someone climbing on the rubble, even if they were there volunteering. Just look at what happened after 9/11 - all those people digging through that pile, none wearing filtration masks (which ARE being worn by the teams in Miami) and now all suffering from diseases as a result, and suing for recovery of healthcare costs related (which are now being covered). Once the scene is controlled by a public entity - they want only authorized people there in order to reduce the risk of litigation. Just look how quickly temporary perimeter fencing went up around the site!

 

[dogslobber]

I'm holding out hope they pull people alive. When similar tragedies occur in other countries then you often get somebody pulled a week or two after the event. Fingers crossed as this story needs some positive news.

 

[NoBoMac]

Moderator Note:

Posts have been deleted or edited. Avoid political or societal comments.

 

[SuperMatt]

Are other buildings in the area endangered too?

Sea level rise due to climate change eyed as contributing factor in Miami-area building collapse

As the search for survivors of the collapse of a 12-story beachfront condo in Surfside, Fla., continued Friday, building experts began looking at the possibility that sea level rise caused by climate change may have contributed to the disaster that has left at least four people dead and 159 missing.

news.yahoo.com

The city is trying to plan for it:

https://www.miamigov.com/files/assets/public/document-resources/pdf-docs/capital-improvements/miami-stormwater-mp_es.pdf

 

[R.T.J.]

I'm holding out hope they pull people alive. When similar tragedies occur in other countries then you often get somebody pulled a week or two after the event. Fingers crossed as this story needs some positive news.

Nah, impossible. Get a car jack, pull up your car, remove the two tires on that side, get under the car and kick the car jack. Be sure to be on a dirt road. Now try to spend a week like that.

Back in the Mexico earthquake in 1985, they realize that most of the survivors were people who were inside or close to the bathroom. Bathrooms have plumbing and hard tiles and the bathtub that made this structure stronger AND they had water.

The fact that there has been raining in Miami is very helpful but by seen the size of the pile and how compact is, I doubt anybody survived. That is why is crucial the first 24 hours because imagine spending time with your broken legs and harms, how long can you survive like that? your body created blood clots from the injures.

Back in Venezuela on December 1999, we had a huge tragedy. We were having a lot of rain for 3 months and one day in December all the mountains toward the coast started to slide. About 30 thousand people were covered by debris, rocks and mud over two days. And that type of dirt when dry is like concrete. It was like the tsunami in Japan.

My brother and I got together and drove in our motorcycles from Caracas to the coastal city 30 minutes away. We got our backpacks with medicine and water, front and back and started to travel on top of the debris to take basic supplies to the people. We were about 100 motorcyclists at first and then we were more than a thousand volunteers.

My father was already retired but he started to make phone calls checking here and there.

The number of bodies, misery, everything! vandalism, robberies. I remember a man halfway the dirt dead as if he was holding his kids buried. I saw a woman crying holding the body of his toddler son and the head. A guy on top of a house trying to get his girlfriend (the house are made of concrete there). We spent 3 days until the military took over.

The pictures I am attaching are just one tiny part, everything along the coast for about 300 miles was like that.

 

[thekev]

The general response seems to be "Yes, We knew the building has been sinking, but let's not jump to conclusions of what made it collapse." That feels like a collective search for cover to me. Someone knew what was happening. I will not be shocked if the fact that that the surrounding area is becoming dangerous due to sea level rise/climate change has been swept under the rug or ignored.



Allow me to introduce you to the 58-story 1.2m SQFT Millennium Tower in downtown San Francisco. Built on sixty 90-foot piles through mud and bay "fill" and into sand. Two years after completion everyone was shocked to discover one corner of the building had sunk 16-inches. By 2018 it was 18-inches and the top of the building was leaning over 14-inches. The current working solution has been to drill 52 new 250-foot piles in the surrounding sidewalk and streets that will reach the bedrock and be tied to the original slab. The hope is that the building will even itself out over the next 10 years...

I was going to post that one. How do they build something like that without drilling straight into bedrock? That building as it is should probably be condemned, given California's history of earthquakes. I mean, would you want to live in or near something like this?

As of 2018 the sinking had increased to 18 inches with a lean of 14 inches.

Then came the cracking.

Residents reported hearing various "creaking sounds," and then a "popping sound" at around 2:30 a.m. on the morning of Sept. 8, 2018.

The following day, a resident living in a corner unit on the 36th floor found a cracked window across glass that was rated to withstand hurricane-force winds. Concerns that the creaking, popping and cracking were another symptom of the structural failure grew. A report conducted on behalf of the tower’s managers, blamed the crack on an “exterior impact,” but gave no indication as to what might have struck the window.

 

[steve123]

Has anyone else noticed that the widely viewed surveillance video of the collapse appears as if it was captured with a handheld camera? The view of the camera definitely pans left to right and there is a lot of stutter.

 

[nicho]

Has anyone else noticed that the widely viewed surveillance video of the collapse appears as if it was captured with a handheld camera? The view of the camera definitely pans left to right and there is a lot of stutter.

Haven't seen it since it first was released and don't really have the urge to go back and find it but...

Most leaked surveillance images are captured by someone pointing a mobile phone at a monitor, rather than actually exported from the CCTV equipment.

 

[sevoneone]

Haven't seen it since it first was released and don't really have the urge to go back and find it but...

Most leaked surveillance images are captured by someone pointing a mobile phone at a monitor, rather than actually exported from the CCTV equipment.

Yeah, its someone using their phone to record the screen of a security camera NVR/DVR. You can see the window border on the left and the top of the image if you look closely. Most of the time it isn't even someone trying to leak the video, its just people having no idea how to anything except scrub the video on their NVR.

 

[R.T.J.]

I saw that video, I mean... way too many things need to go wrong to end up losing the entire building like that. All the columns collapsed! That means that all of them had problems to give in like that. A design problem regarding how weight should be distributed, the load capacity of each column and the materials used. Those 3 factors failed.