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Miami building collapsed.
- Thread starter Huntn
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there's been a fair bit of commentary about the problems with the flat slab of the pool deck, the failure of its waterproofing and the visible damage done to the concrete structure below in the parking garage as a result.......here's a graphic from an article from BBC that shows the extent of the garage and its relation to the apartment towers. The slab extends over all of the parking garage and its connection to the structure of the towers has been suggested as potentially a source of trouble
I read this morning that they have to stop working because the other tower is likely to collapse any minute.
www.miamiherald.com
Rescue work resumes ‘in areas that are safe’ at condo site as Biden leaves South Florida
After a 15-hour hiatus, the search-and-rescue effort at Champlain Towers South Condo resumed Thursday evening, just as President Joe Biden boarded a plane and concluded his visit to South Florida.
www.miamiherald.com
Edit: Didn’t see the mod note on the previous page.
I guess I’ll just say that this was obviously a preventable tragedy, and like so many canaries in the coal mine of recent years once the cameras leave we will have learned a lot, and done nothing at all.
I guess I’ll just say that this was obviously a preventable tragedy, and like so many canaries in the coal mine of recent years once the cameras leave we will have learned a lot, and done nothing at all.
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To fix so many things requires a lot of work, creates too many enemies. At the end is inevitable to cover up and keep walking and let the issue fall onto someone else's lap.
Don't the condo owners each own a share of the building? That is the tragedy of this. How are lay people in an owner's association supposed to decipher complex engineering reports? Still, the condition of the building looked fairly awful. You'd think cracks, rust, and deterioration of the concrete would have prompted some action. Perhaps the fact that this hasn't really happened before in the US made people complacent. Such an awful event...
Don't the condo owners each own a share of the building? That is the tragedy of this. How are lay people in an owner's association supposed to decipher complex engineering reports? Still, the condition of the building looked fairly awful. You'd think cracks, rust, and deterioration of the concrete would have prompted some action. Perhaps the fact that this hasn't really happened before in the US made people complacent. Such an awful event...
yes......and they had started the process of raising the money to pay for necessary repairs. From a CNN report;
"Condo owners in the South Florida tower that collapsed last week were facing assessments for millions of dollars worth of repairs -- with payments set to begin a week after the building's deadly fall.
The Champlain Towers South condo association approved a $15 million assessment in April to complete repairs required under the county's 40-year recertification process, according to documents obtained by CNN. ..."
"...Owners would have to pay assessments ranging from $80,190 for one-bedroom units to $336,135 for the owner of the building's four-bedroom penthouse, a document sent to the building's residents said. The deadline to pay upfront or choose paying a monthly fee lasting 15 years was July 1...."
there's been a fair bit of commentary about the problems with the flat slab of the pool deck, the failure of its waterproofing and the visible damage done to the concrete structure below in the parking garage as a result.......here's a graphic from an article from BBC that shows the extent of the garage and its relation to the apartment towers. The slab extends over all of the parking garage and its connection to the structure of the towers has been suggested as potentially a source of trouble
Just to clarify regarding the reference of slabs. Slabs aren't support. Below columns and support walls will be significantly deeper poured reinforced concrete. Slab is (I believe) only 6 to 8" thick or around that depth. Support(foundation) goes several to multiple feet deep with compacting the ground given 'extra'.
Damage to the slab doesn't per se mean there's damage to the support walls and columns. But! if there is damage to the slab it is important to see if this damage extends to the support. In Florida it's extra important as slab damage (which slight damage is not uncommon) that also extends to support wall/column damage very likely means the ground is settling or most important there is a sinkhole.
In the case here, if it was significant settling before collapse, I'm surprised more homeowners wouldn't have seen their floors becoming slanted, maybe windows/doors that don't open easily anymore. Otherwise unless it was a sudden sinkhole this appears to be support column/wall degradation that progressed beyond the point of failure.
actually slabs do provide support....to everything that's directly on top of it including interior walls, furniture, appliances, people, and so on. Those loads are transferred to beams and beam loads are transferred to columns or load bearing walls, and ultimately the total load is transferred to a foundation....slabs also provide support to resist horizontal loads, like hurricane winds......"support' is a total system of various parts.
You're right about the potential for settling or sink holes to cause a problem, but as you said, one would expect to hear that there had been complaints. No doubt this will be something that's considered during the upcoming investigations.
But water penetration in slabs, beams and columns was reported in the engineer's investigation in 2018. Since the garage below the condos extends beyond the area of the condo towers above, any failure of the waterproofing of the garage "roof" slab provides easy routes for water penetration of all of the structural elements below.......since this was already observed, no doubt it'll be a focus of investigation too
Correct on the clarification. Slabs do support, for lack of a better phrase, items for living. But the support for the building's support skeleton(as I'll call it) wouldn't be in conjunction with a slab. Horizontal(shear stress) support is not part of the building I had built. I could have lived on the dirt inside
but I'd prefer the slab for a flat dry clean place to lay carpets cabinets appliances etc.No doubt the support columns seam to have decay if reports are correct, and seem to be. But likely a lot of buildings will have decay especially humid climates and near the beach. This collapse is extremely rare.
For the building to come almost straight down it isn't likely to be shear stress, it would have to be a failure in multiple areas of the vertical support skeleton (else we'd see a bit more of a outward fall).
Fyi, I'm not an expert and this isn't necessarily spot on information. I've worked with building homes and with shear stress factors for walls. I may be wrong about this building's collapse but it's near vertical collapse should have been less vertical. Something in the lowest part of the building had major failure on multiple sides.
We have had owner/occupiers moved out of, or stopped from moving into, a number of buildings in Sydney.
Here are three cases amongst several --
Sydney Opal Tower
Castle Hill Tower
Parramatta
There are building regulations, but until recently the gummint thought that 'Self-Regulation' would be sufficient. The builders had to submit building inspections, but were able to appoint their own inspectors, and paid them for the inspection. Guess how well that has been going...
Here are three cases amongst several --
Sydney Opal Tower
Castle Hill Tower
Parramatta
There are building regulations, but until recently the gummint thought that 'Self-Regulation' would be sufficient. The builders had to submit building inspections, but were able to appoint their own inspectors, and paid them for the inspection. Guess how well that has been going...
Correct on the clarification. Slabs do support, for lack of a better phrase, items for living. But the support for the building's support skeleton(as I'll call it) wouldn't be in conjunction with a slab. Horizontal(shear stress) support is not part of the building I had built. I could have lived on the dirt inside
No doubt the support columns seam to have decay if reports are correct, and seem to be. But likely a lot of buildings will have decay especially humid climates and near the beach. This collapse is extremely rare.
For the building to come almost straight down it isn't likely to be shear stress, it would have to be a failure in multiple areas of the vertical support skeleton (else we'd see a bit more of a outward fall).
Fyi, I'm not an expert and this isn't necessarily spot on information. I've worked with building homes and with shear stress factors for walls. I may be wrong about this building's collapse but it's near vertical collapse should have been less vertical. Something in the lowest part of the building had major failure on multiple sides.
I'm pretty sure all of us would prefer something other than a dirt floor! 😁
You said you've worked with home building so I'd guess you're unlikely to have had the need to become familiar with some types of reinforced concrete construction that don't use a post and beam type of skeleton.
So for your fyi and entertainment.......here are some photos that show what's called flat plate reinforced concrete construction. As you'll see, no beams at all, just columns and slabs. In many areas, it's a quite common construction type for mid-rise residential and office buildings....and I have no idea if this is how the collapsed building in Miami was built....it's just a side point in the discussion
I'm pretty sure all of us would prefer something other than a dirt floor! 😁
You said you've worked with home building so I'd guess you're unlikely to have had the need to become familiar with some types of reinforced concrete construction that don't use a post and beam type of skeleton.
So for your fyi and entertainment.......here are some photos that show what's called flat plate reinforced concrete construction. As you'll see, no beams at all, just columns and slabs. In many areas, it's a quite common construction type for mid-rise residential and office buildings....and I have no idea if this is how the collapsed building in Miami was built....it's just a side point in the discussion
LOL, yea I can do without the 1800s dirt floor
.Yes, the tallest I dealt with was two story, block constructed, floating foundation houses. I did deal with some multi story construction (steel) but not in its building, just in some sheer calculations for non load bearing walls. Thanks for the great info. I can see from the pics the support skeleton of this build is relying on upper floor slabs for sheer strength(I didn't realize there're were multi multi story building that didn't use steel).
Not questioning if it is or isn't in these higher buildings, but I though foundation was strictly ground 'firmness' survey and proper depth of foundation based on the load above (assuming the Miami tragedy was a failure at the foundational level). For example the big city high rise will see some very serious depth of foundation (and interestingly this can rest on massive coils for back-forth 'give').
The slabs are structural, supporting the live load.
The slab weight is also part of the dead load supported by beams, columns, and the foundation.
Well, at least your government didn't put flammable cladding on the sides of buildings...
Grenfell tower fire, London - 72 dead 74 hospitalised. Source: link
Given the high density of people in these towers I hope governments take a good hard look at safety. Collapses and deadly fires can kill a large number of people, so any inspection or building process that entails conflict of interest should be checked by an independent body with enforcement powers. If any good comes out of the collapse of the building in Miami, I hope it is that people are no longer complacent.
Well, at least your government didn't put flammable cladding on the sides of buildings...
Grenfell tower fire, London - 72 dead 74 hospitalised. Source: link
Given the high density of people in these towers I hope governments take a good hard look at safety. Collapses and deadly fires can kill a large number of people, so any inspection or building process that entails conflict of interest should be checked by an independent body with enforcement powers. If any good comes out of the collapse of the building in Miami, I hope it is that people are no longer complacent.
We did, actually. See here.
Fortunately no casualties.
However, now there is a project on to get all these building re-clad. And guess who has to pay -- the residents.
In many cases the original building company has disappeared, so there is nobody left to sue.
A lot of construction entities are short-lived LLCs and if they screw things up, good luck getting a dime back from them. I remember seeing a story about this on the PBS NewsHour years ago. They interviewed a guy who readily admitted he would set up an LLC for a project, then shut it down and make a new one for the next project. It made it nearly impossible for anybody to be compensated if he screwed things up.
Wow ...
It's been observed at this point that a number of occupants that have covered their smoke alarms with plastic in order to stop their fire alarms from activating," Mr Curtin said.
"It's my understanding occupants have taken plastic and wrapped it around the smoke alarm to stop it activating in the case of cooking or other products of combustion in an apartment."
He said other "building management issues" which were affecting the emergency response included residents who refused to leave despite repeated pleas from firefighters.
Trey took the rest of the building down, my impression is because of an approaching storm.
www.msn.com
Remainder of Florida condo building demolished
At the time of the demolition, the remains of 24 people had been recovered and 121 people were still missing.
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Try took the rest of the building down, my impression is because of an approaching storm.
Remainder of Florida condo building demolished
At the time of the demolition, the remains of 24 people had been recovered and 121 people were still missing.
I just can’t stop watching the demolition of the section that was still standing. It seem so unreal seeing that empty space.
Approaching storm and for the safety of the rescue crews.Trey took the rest of the building down, my impression is because of an approaching storm.
Remainder of Florida condo building demolished
At the time of the demolition, the remains of 24 people had been recovered and 121 people were still missing.
Yes and it fell down just the way they wanted it to. It made me want to watch more demolition videos. I wished and hoped they would’ve been able to extract some of the remaining alive or their bodies and have the residents of the remaining portion able to get their belongings.