Miami building collapsed.

[VulchR]

Sad for all the people who lost lives, homes, and belongings.

I guess we'll have to wait for a proper investigation, but any lessons about this that can be learned should be acted on. I do wonder if this was a sinkhole due to a rising water table as the sea level has risen. Look to the right of the pool - it looks like the ground collapsed.

In any case i think the emergency workers deserve medals - look at the 7 horizontal cracks in the concrete in the vertical wall at lower right. What's left of that building can't be stable, and the bravery required for rescue workers to be anywhere near it, let alone working in the debris, is amazing.

Image source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57606232

 

[webbuzz]

Sad for all the people who lost lives, homes, and belongings.

I guess we'll have to wait for a proper investigation, but any lessons about this that can be learned should be acted on. I do wonder if this was a sinkhole due to a rising water table as the sea level has risen. Look to the right of the pool - it looks like the ground collapsed.

In any case i think the emergency workers deserve medals - look at the 7 horizontal cracks in the concrete in the vertical wall at lower right. What's left of that building can't be stable, and the bravery required for rescue workers to be anywhere near it, let alone working in the debris, is amazing.

Image source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57606232

The area to the right of the pool is an elevated deck, possibly storage or parking beneath.

 

[GermanSuplex]

This is so scary. All the uprooted lives caused by one, single building.

I don't know jack-**** about structural integrity, but I know for the most part, tall buildings and sky scrapers are pretty darn safe and it takes quite a bit to bring one down. There are how many buildings the size of this condo and bigger across the world, and how many of them come down? I suppose its bound to happen, but when I heard the building was opened in 1981 and is just now getting an inspection around the time of the collapse, its like... "how does this happen?"

You would assume that large buildings along the coast, of all places, would be inspected routinely for integrity.

 

[pshufd]

This is so scary. All the uprooted lives caused by one, single building.

I don't know jack-**** about structural integrity, but I know for the most part, tall buildings and sky scrapers are pretty darn safe and it takes quite a bit to bring one down. There are how many buildings the size of this condo and bigger across the world, and how many of them come down? I suppose its bound to happen, but when I heard the building was opened in 1981 and is just now getting an inspection around the time of the collapse, its like... "how does this happen?"

You would assume that large buildings along the coast, of all places, would be inspected routinely for integrity.

A lot of condo associations are run by amateurs. I had a coworker and he bought a condex (two-owner condo). My coworker was into maintenance and doing PMs and improvements. The other owner was not. What do you do as both of you have one vote and you have to have agreement to get anything done. Not really a problem is a condex as structural issues are very unlikely. But any owner can run for the board and you often have a hard time meeting quorum so the board has to go around begging for people to vote or submit ballots early or else you have to hold multiple elections.

No different from having someone with no Government experience elected as president.

 

[Huntn]

My father is an civil engineer, and I grew up learning about building/bridge design. I started out Civil engineering in undergrad but enjoyed software engineering more so I switched majors.

There are many areas where rock may not be available, they use a series of reinforced concrete piles burred by pile drivers to reinforce the foundation. It can go into firmer soil or if it is available rock.

Pile Foundations | Types of Piles | Cassions

This page explains pile foundations and how they work in buildings.

www.understandconstruction.com

Inspections typically are cut back just like everything else, reducing taxes. Just like everything else, you don't need government regulations, until you do...

When you think of a concrete pile onto, into rock, this seems superior to one even if it is set in 30-50' of dirt, the weight of the building could slowly press it down. I mean how far can dirt go down before you hit something substantial?

Now houses, much less in the way of mass, are good when their foundation goes below the frost line. They are riding on the dirt.

 

[R.T.J.]

I live in Miami, my father was an architect and an expert in security and a fireman. He used to go to every single earthquake and disaster to rescue people and make assessments. I remember well when the earthquake in Mexico City in 1985, the magnitude was just 6.3 on the scale but everything came down because the city was built on a lake and with any tremor, the grown liquefies.

The building that collapsed was obviously for problems with the pillars and that problem just got exposed and is opening a Pandoras Box. The "cancer" with all those buildings is that the pillars underground are in contact with salty water,
1. the land has water from both sides.
2. the groundwater level is probably 6 feet
3. the land used to be a swamp and then covered with sand

So... what can go wrong? The only way for any building to survive is by having very long and wide pillars underground basically made out of plastic or a very solid type of concrete.

The current problem with the pillars of all the buildings is that no matter how deep or wide, what matters is the material as well. When salty water penetrates the concrete and reaches the steel bars, by oxidation, the steel breaks and expand, breaking the concrete and letting more water in. In a matter of time the pillar will give in and the structure will collapse.

As of right now, all those buildings are going to start asking for assessments. Imagine the value of all those apartments how they are going to drop. If there is some sort of negligence and the inspections reveal that the new buildings are at risk as well... there are going to be a load of class actions suits against the city of Miami Beach.

Things are going to turn ugly and fast in this city.

 

[velocityg4]

I'm sure there'll be a thorough investigation. What I'm most curious about is if it was just a poor choice of materials or if the builder cut corners with substandard materials or it wasn't built to code.

 

[sevoneone]

The general response seems to be "Yes, We knew the building has been sinking, but let's not jump to conclusions of what made it collapse." That feels like a collective search for cover to me. Someone knew what was happening. I will not be shocked if the fact that that the surrounding area is becoming dangerous due to sea level rise/climate change has been swept under the rug or ignored.

When you think of a concrete pile onto of rock, this seems superior to one even if it is set in 30-50'' of dirt, if the weight of the building could slowly press it down. I mean how far can dirt go down before you hit something substantial?

Allow me to introduce you to the 58-story 1.2m SQFT Millennium Tower in downtown San Francisco. Built on sixty 90-foot piles through mud and bay "fill" and into sand. Two years after completion everyone was shocked to discover one corner of the building had sunk 16-inches. By 2018 it was 18-inches and the top of the building was leaning over 14-inches. The current working solution has been to drill 52 new 250-foot piles in the surrounding sidewalk and streets that will reach the bedrock and be tied to the original slab. The hope is that the building will even itself out over the next 10 years...

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

This article from Australia's ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) is an interesting read

Miami Building Collapse

I hope it is available outside of Australia.

 

[sgtaylor5]

Thanks for the map! Very informative. It’s only three short blocks wide where the building was. Hard to keep saltwater infiltration away from that area no matter what you do.

 

[R.T.J.]

I'm sure there'll be a thorough investigation. What I'm most curious about is if it was just a poor choice of materials or if the builder cut corners with substandard materials or it wasn't built to code.

Look at this picture. In any normal city, everybody jumps to remove the rubble when a building collapses... except in Miami. What better example of the lack of everything that city has? No one is on the pile doing a search, they are waiting for some "ultrasound equipment" to do the job. By that time they could have removed half of the debris and fins survivor or bodies. But 3 days have passed already and the pile still intact.

Now... do you really think people are following codes? All those buildings are rotting, this one is the first one falling. If you do not touch them, in 20 years they all will fall. Is that serious.

 

[R.T.J.]

I just came from the area.

The problem is going to be way bigger, we may end up with a new housing crisis by the end of the year as a consequence.

Every single building in Miami Beach and on the east and west coast of Florida is going to start in no time to do inspections. At least in Miami, is obvious no one is going to rent or buy properties in the coastal area and current residents will look into moving out. That is going to generate a huge drop in value in mass, to the point where owners may stop paying to the banks and such. Imagine that ripple effects on every coast in the U.S. and in every country in the world with oceanfront.

 

[Macky-Mac]

it seems it's possible that a poorly designed waterproofing system failed to properly drain what would be primarily rain water off of the pool deck, which seems to be the "roof" of part of the parking garage. There's a report from an engineer's inspection done several years ago that's now circulating;

"..."The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas," he wrote. "Failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially."

The engineer also referred to "abundant cracking… of columns, beams and walls" in the parking garage...."

 

[Huntn]

it seems it's possible that a poorly designed waterproofing system failed to properly drain what would be primarily rain water off of the pool deck, which seems to be the "roof" of part of the parking garage. There's a report from an engineer's inspection done several years ago that's now circulating;

"..."The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas," he wrote. "Failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially."

The engineer also referred to "abundant cracking… of columns, beams and walls" in the parking garage...."

This is exactly why, the perfect example of why strenuous oversight “regulations” is a must. Besides those who hold responsibility for ownership, (home association?), the City is on the hook for enforcement of building regulations/inspections. Of course this is a form of central authority some of our esteemed citizens rail against, but is a good example of why it’s necessary. 👀

 

[44267547]

One building collapsing probably won’t be the magnitude of what we saw in 2008 with the housing market crash. If you actually research what caused the market crash for the housing structure during that time, these two things really can’t be compared based off ‘one’ building collapsing, totally two different sparks that started the housing crash.

 

[R.T.J.]

When you think of a concrete pile onto of rock, this seems superior to one even if it is set in 30-50'' of dirt, if the weight of the building could slowly press it down. I mean how far can dirt go down before you hit something substantial?

Now houses, much less in the way of mass, are good when their foundation goes below the frost line. They are riding on the dirt.

It is not about "until hitting something substantial", civil engineering it is not an empiric profession. There are a lot of studies and do's and don'ts. That is why there are underwater tunnels and such.

For a building like this to fall, several things must go wrong. In aviation, there is the swiss cheese analogy. Imagine you have different slices of swiss cheese, you can go through a hole with the first slice but the second slice does not have a hole in that position. Well, imagine the chances of going through 6 slices. For sure, in this case, they are going to find negligence and cover-ups regarding the problems with the building. Another factor could be ignorance... probably the negligent people thought "nothing is going to happen".

 

[curmudgeonette]

The area to the right of the pool is an elevated deck, possibly storage or parking beneath.

Parking. There's an image/video online showing the "surface level" parking deck collapsed into the space below. The newly exposed portions of the columns have numbers on them, i.e. parking spot numbers for the basement level parking.

 

[Mellofello808]

Every once in a while, I drink with a guy who is a geotechnical engineer out here. He will sometimes spill tea, over the issues they face.

They were tasked with building a new wing on one of our largest malls. It had to support 3 stories of mall, and potentially a high rise condos on top of that, in the future.

Problem being that the area they are building on at one point was ocean front land, before they filled in a large park across the street.

When they were pouring the giant pilings to support the structure, some went just fine filling up with a couple trucks worth of concrete. However some of them took 20 trucks, for one piling. Some they ended up having to reengineer, and move to different locations , because no matter how much they poured in, the underground cavities weren't filling up.


I purposely avoid that new side of the mall, knowing that it is built on a ton of sinkholes.

There are big high rise buildings all up and down the beach near there as well. Unfortunately this will probably happen here one day.

 

[Gregg2]

What I want to know is why building management wasn't inspecting this every year.

$$$

 

[Huntn]

It is not about "until hitting something substantial", civil engineering it is not an empiric profession. There are a lot of studies and do's and don'ts. That is why there are underwater tunnels and such.

For a building like this to fall, several things must go wrong. In aviation, there is the swiss cheese analogy. Imagine you have different slices of swiss cheese, you can go through a hole with the first slice but the second slice does not have a hole in that position. Well, imagine the chances of going through 6 slices. For sure, in this case, they are going to find negligence and cover-ups regarding the problems with the building. Another factor could be ignorance... probably the negligent people thought "nothing is going to happen".

Please describe underwater tunnels as it applies to what you are saying.

 

[Huntn]

I read a WSJ article and it looks like the condo owners formed the association so they had a standard owner-governance model. It's similar to town management - if management is incompetent (the are just elected owners to manage it), you can get disasters, just like towns, cities, states and countries.

But aren’t they still subject to city regulations and inspections?

 

[velocityg4]

Look at this picture. In any normal city, everybody jumps to remove the rubble when a building collapses... except in Miami. What better example of the lack of everything that city has? No one is on the pile doing a search, they are waiting for some "ultrasound equipment" to do the job. By that time they could have removed half of the debris and fins survivor or bodies. But 3 days have passed already and the pile still intact.

Now... do you really think people are following codes? All those buildings are rotting, this one is the first one falling. If you do not touch them, in 20 years they all will fall. Is that serious.

View attachment 1797956

There's a fire in the rubble. Hampering search and rescue efforts.

Miami-Area Rescue Effort Is Hampered by Fire as Families Cling to Hope

Town officials are inspecting the nearby sister tower of the collapsed condo tower and could determine that mandatory evacuation is necessary, the Surfside, Fla., mayor said.

www.wsj.com

But aren’t they still subject to city regulations and inspections?

The building has shown serious cracks in a 2018 engineer's report. This has been an ongoing issue. With previous repair attempts over the year also showing signs of failure.

At least 156 missing after partial building collapse near Miami: Live updates | CNN

Search and rescue efforts continue a day after a building in Surfside, Florida, partially collapsed. Follow here for the latest.

www.cnn.com

I don't know if repairs were attempted. I assume this will be investigated. Along with the competence of the 2018 inspection or competence of repairs if performed. To see if they missed signs they should have caught. Signs which would have lead to a more thorough analysis and repair.

 

[Huntn]

There's a fire in the rubble. Hampering search and rescue efforts.

Miami-Area Rescue Effort Is Hampered by Fire as Families Cling to Hope

Town officials are inspecting the nearby sister tower of the collapsed condo tower and could determine that mandatory evacuation is necessary, the Surfside, Fla., mayor said.

www.wsj.com

The building has shown serious cracks in a 2018 engineer's report. This has been an ongoing issue. With previous repair attempts over the year also showing signs of failure.

At least 156 missing after partial building collapse near Miami: Live updates | CNN

Search and rescue efforts continue a day after a building in Surfside, Florida, partially collapsed. Follow here for the latest.

www.cnn.com

I don't know if repairs were attempted. I assume this will be investigated. Along with the competence of the 2018 inspection or competence of repairs if performed. To see if they missed signs they should have caught. Signs which would have lead to a more thorough analysis and repair.

Something was said on the radio about a previous estimate made of $9M to repair which if I understand the report correctly, that was never done. 🤔

 

[velocityg4]

Something was said on the radio about a previous estimate made of $9M to repair which if I understand the report correctly, that was never done. 🤔

I'm guessing so. As it's a condo. Is there even a building owner or is it just owned the condominium association?

If the association is at fault for not doing repairs. That's got to be a legal quagmire. I'd think that all owners, including those who perished, would be guilty in any lawsuit or criminal liability. As I'd think some repair this big would have been put to a vote.

Plus if they didn't do the recommended repairs. Will the insurers have to pay anything? As the condo owners were notified of an issue and took no action.

 

[Allyance]

In the Masterpiece series "Endeavor" on PBS there was an episode in which a building collapsed in the same manner due a contractor in cahoots with major politician used unwashed sand in the concrete mix to save money, the sea salt in the sand caused the corrosion and failure of the rebar. Not saying that the sand was the cause of the Miami disaster, but weakening of the support pillars is eerily similar.