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Many of his videos through the '80s and early '90s showed him to be a master of theatrical performance to rival Queen, Elvis or Hitler; but while these three acted with the voices of cynicism and experience, Jackson's imagination produced a curiously child-like combination of yearning for adoration and positively channeled tantrum. His resounding message was the celebration of platonic love and honest expression of pain, a polar opposite to the choking hypocritical attrition of more subtle artists such as Lennon(*).


He lived and died more talented, more loved, and more rich than all his detractors, joining a very small group of artists to have enjoyed such a span of continued popularity. He attracts bitter invective because he was the performer who would not, and perhaps could not, adapt to the world. All such men are hated by those who cannot bear to accept that admitting an alternative outlook might reveal their own weaknesses.

(*) Lennon was also a great artist, but I perceive no honesty in his performance.

Have you been sleeping in Michael Jackson's oxygen tent? There was no real honesty to what Michael Jackson did, it was all plastic, manufactured pop to appeal to kids. The man had been so isolated from reality for so long, and had such a ****er for a father he lived in a dream world. I suppose thats honest if you believe that someone who is delusional actually believes they are telling the truth.

I can't think of a single band/artist that I listen to who sound even vaguely like they have been influenced by Whacko Jacko. His death is sad, just like the latter parts of his life.
 
If the authoritative opinion on one musician you enjoy is to come from another musician you enjoy, then your argument is sound. However, a man's theatrical performance is judged by his audience, not by fellow actors. A popular musician's merits are not assessed by peer review!
Great. You're actually saying that Britney Spears may actually be better than Maria Callas thanks to BS popularity with her audience. You MJ-fans are certainly bending the rules whenever it favours you.

Plus, I never said I enjoyed Elton John. Not only bending the rules, but adding some lies to the story as well. Terrific.

But look up the raving reviews of Prince Superbowl Performance, read up on the raving reviews of Prince London gigs from Brian May to Elton John and from Amy Whitehouse to Chaka Kahn. Read up on the reviews of Prince's 1987 Sign of the Times tour ('Makes MJ look nailed to the floor').

As one US music critic once said: 'MJ is for kids, Prince is for music lovers'.


And yet Prince, in life, manages to be outshone by MJ in death. So ask yourself: why is it that there has been such an outpouring of admiration for a man who has not done so much in the past decade? Given recent UK coverage of Take That (all members of which are also "still alive", sort of), should I judge that they hold a candle to MJ?

Two words. Mass hysteria.


Absolutely none of Prince's work has moved me. In quantity he's certainly outdone MJ, and he has composed more of the work he performed, but who cares? What MJ had a hand in producing, he has produced well, and when he performs another's work, he does so with unique flair.

Just an opinion. I trust the opinions of talented musicians a lot more than yours.
 
I can't believe some of the arguments I'm reading in this thread... amazing.

And regarding Prince, that dude is NUTS. You need to watch/listen to one of the evening with kevin smith dvd's, I think its the 2nd one... where he talks about doing filming for Prince. Very interesting.
 
And regarding Prince, that dude is NUTS. .

Of course, Michael Jackson was the worlds sanest man...:rolleyes:

Since when has being normal been a prerequisite for being a superstar?

All of them are mad by any quantifiable standard, it goes with the territory, the excesses that accompany huge fame and fortune warp perception, morality and desire. Why do you think so many of them end up dead too young?

Michael Jackson lived an astonishingly odd and fractured life, as does Prince, comparisons can be drawn musically and personally, one just hopes that Prince avoids an early death.
 
windywoo said:
I suppose thats honest if you believe that someone who is delusional actually believes they are telling the truth.
Honesty is to not misrepresent how you perceive reality. An honest mistake or even delusion is not dishonesty. But what's so hard to stomach about having a child-like mind and openly displaying it in your performance and lifestyle? What is so immoral about having a production team to bring out this aspect of your character?

Great. You're actually saying that Britney Spears may actually be better than Maria Callas thanks to BS popularity with her audience.
MJ and MC have stood the test of time, whereas BS is light entertainment for the moment. The audience of the former two has been maintained beyond their peak and death.

Anyway, we're discussing popular music. Coming from a family with a mother as amateur classical singer, I have grown to find opera pompous and uninspiring. Rage as opera lovers might, this is a popular opinion of the performance of opera (even if the technical talent of the singers and composers is brilliant), which is why opera will never enjoy the appeal of, say, MJ. Remember, popular music is about the /whole experience/, not a demonstration of technical ability.

Plus, I never said I enjoyed Elton John. Not only bending the rules, but adding some lies to the story as well. Terrific.
It would be odd to defend Prince's qualities by discussing his performing "with the likes of" musicians you do not enjoy. But, true, you never made a separate assertion that you liked his music.

<snip> As one US music critic once said: 'MJ is for kids, Prince is for music lovers'.
Why the stream of appeal to authority? As Bierce defines `advice': "the smallest current coin". Which makes a professional critic...?

Two words. Mass hysteria.
So the same thing will happen when Prince dies, right? or not? I mean, I had a loved one die quite recently, and I don't recall any significant global reaction. Why is this?

Just an opinion. I trust the opinions of talented musicians a lot more than yours.
If you "trust" the opinion of talented musicians more than the audience when judging the performance of a popular artist, you are completely misunderstanding the very word "popular". I don't go to the streets for a critique of the latest maths paper that crosses my desk, and I don't go to my university's art department for a critical review of the Spice Girls.
 
MJ and MC have stood the test of time, whereas BS is light entertainment for the moment. The audience of the former two has been maintained beyond their peak and death.

Anyway, we're discussing popular music. Coming from a family with a mother as amateur classical singer, I have grown to find opera pompous and uninspiring. Rage as opera lovers might, this is a popular opinion of the performance of opera (even if the technical talent of the singers and composers is brilliant), which is why opera will never enjoy the appeal of, say, MJ. Remember, popular music is about the /whole experience/, not a demonstration of technical ability.

I cannot speak intelligently about all opera, so you may have a valid point. Mind you though, one of the most popular movies in the 80s was Amadeus, who brought Mozart's music to a whole different audience (like myself when I was a kid): children in various countries were mimicing Tom Hulce's laughter. Also, Die Zauberflote has been reworked (I believe) five times in the past three decades. Bergman's version ranks high in IMDB. I don't think opera is that impopular and, although opera is often used as an omnibus definition, there is a whole range of different operas, ranging from the opera seria to the opera buffa (and probably a lot more, but as said: I cannot speak intelligently about opera). I think the popularity will also depend on the kind of opera you're refering to.


It would be odd to defend Prince's qualities by discussing his performing "with the likes of" musicians you do not enjoy. But, true, you never made a separate assertion that you liked his music.

Why the stream of appeal to authority? As Bierce defines `advice': "the smallest current coin". Which makes a professional critic...?

I cannot see what 'advice' has got to do with this issue, but their first-hand experience with Prince would make a good case. Their factual knowledge about musical ability would be up there as well. Very few little people would deny the musical abilities of Elton John, U2 (who were stunned by Prince's performance in London, March 1995), Miles Davis (who believed that the only person to take music further would be Prince: there's also a wonderful performence of Miles and Prince jamming together, you can look it up at videogoogle), Alicia Keys, and so on. I trust these opinions a whole lot more than those from the average man in the street.

Let me just add two vids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLmZKsWRL9E
Prince on guitar, blowing the likes of Tom Petty and others away. You can just see the expectation and joy from George Harrison's son at 3m27 as Prince comes on stage. This is an epic performance by any measure. And it has to be said: there are dozens of performances from Prince like this. Try to get your hands on 'Just my imagination', played by Prince in The Hague, 1988.

The second one is the Prince-Miles Davis vid: it's a bit long and over 200Mb+ but worth to watch: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1257821802261658318

So the same thing will happen when Prince dies, right? or not? I mean, I had a loved one die quite recently, and I don't recall any significant global reaction. Why is this?

My condolences.

But this comparison is a bit flawed. People die all the time and no significant global reaction follows. The two that come to my mind for comparison are the death of Princess Diana and the death of Ayrton Senna. They touched the lives of millions around the globe as well, something MJ did too (and yes, I am not denying that).

But this is not the focal point of my discussion. I feel that MJ has been overrated the past 25 years. To be very honest, I like MJ's music a lot, but not the music he made after Thriller. In fact, I'm rather disappointed to see a talent go to waste after 1984-1985. He may, and perhaps even should, have given us better stuff than he did since then.

And I'm not the only one: This is what I read in NY Times yesterday

even in his best work, Mr. Jackson relied too often on known stunts. Watch Mr. Jackson live at the Superbowl halftime show in 1993, wearing his trademark dark glasses and ponytail with loose locks falling forward over the brow, starting out in quasi-military uniform, and you see he does everything the audience wants with skill, energy, but almost no spontaneity. Even the anger seems synthetic now.

But to watch 'Don't stop till you get enough' is to be amazed at just how much charm he had and the charm gets more infectious as the dancing proceeds.

The kind of drama he puts onto the screen isn't always rescued by his skill as a performer. But the gifts were sensational, and the way he honed them at first was superb

Also, I don't know what will happen if Prince dies and I tend not to get involved in discussions about things that may have come. We'll see that when it happens (which I hope won't be happening any time soon)


If you "trust" the opinion of talented musicians more than the audience when judging the performance of a popular artist, you are completely misunderstanding the very word "popular". I don't go to the streets for a critique of the latest maths paper that crosses my desk, and I don't go to my university's art department for a critical review of the Spice Girls.

Hence my earlier comment about marketing and MJ. Marketing can make disgusting McDonald's food popular.
 
If you want to compare Prince and MJ, I was never moved by any of the Prince' songs, but I have all MJ albums to date and have couple favorites from each. I'm 27 years old, I play piano since the age of 8 and I compose orchestral music.

I'm not saying Prince' music sucks, but it just wasn't for me. I know he has a huge fan base, not as huge as Jackson though if you look at the numbers. That doesn't say MJ was a better artist, it just says he was more popular than Prince.

I'm not even going to go into all the molestation BS, it has nothing to do with the music.

To everyone who claim he never did anything decent after Thriller, that's also total BS. Bad was a great album, Dangerous and History had its moments and Invincible was weak. Just because he kept repeating the moves of the past in his more recent performances doesn't mean he was burned out. Do you actually know any other performer who came up with a new "moonwalk" for each of his/her albums? Most performers don't even have such a niche in the first place, including Prince.

It's true that Jackson worked with geniuses like QJ, that doesn't change the fact that their collaboration turned out to be more fruity than anyone else writing his/her songs.

In 2050 MJ will still be around, for sure. Thriller is from 30 years ago and is insanely popular even today.

About influences, many performers/musicians already admitted that MJ was a big inspiration for them, including Spears, Timberlake. Timberlake's first solo album is considered to be an homage to Thriller actually. You may or may not like those performers, as I generally dislike Timberlake's music, but that doesn't change the fact that those are today some of the biggest names in pop music.

But all that is pretty moot. People loved MJ's songs. His Dangerous concert tour was the biggest tour worldwide yet, only surpassed by History tour. You can easily attack the figure but you can't deny his popularity, he was by a long shot the king of pop.

I cannot see what 'advice' has got to do with this issue, but their first-hand experience with Prince would make a good case. Their factual knowledge about musical ability would be up there as well. Very few little people would deny the musical abilities of Elton John, U2 (who were stunned by Prince's performance in London, March 1995), Miles Davis (who believed that the only person to take music further would be Prince: there's also a wonderful performence of Miles and Prince jamming together, you can look it up at videogoogle), Alicia Keys, and so on. I trust these opinions a whole lot more than those from the average man in the street.

You shouldn't trust anyone's opinion, since they are in the end nothing more than an opinion. You should trust your own opinions when judging something. And you can easily find lots of famous musicians quotes stating that Jackson was the biggest inspiration in pop. So quoting U2 or Davis is really irrelevant here. Musicians have their favorites as well.
 
I cant believe all the BS people are posting about MJ, he was a genius and music represents that, the mere fact that 9 out of top 10 songs and albums are all MJ's in itunes store, the fact that he has sold 750 Million copies world wide just goes to show his genius, have a look at these videos and make sure you see the entire thing -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvhwWDCV9Bo

And Jordan Chandler is saying that he lied because of his father in 1993

http://awkwardstar.wordpress.com/2009/06/27/jordan-chandler-admits-he-lied-about-michael-jackson/

He was also aquited for all charges in the 2005 case. The video above talks about the boy Gavin who was the accuser in 2005, that he was a cancer victim and wanted to meet Michael Jackson , and that Michael actually fulfilled his wish.

His life was very different from ours, and never lived a normal life, he always felt that he dint have a normal childhood. I have a been listening to his songs since I was 11 or 12.. when the first time he was accused I had my doubts but these videos and several other interviews along with the court case verdict proves he was always innocent, and just because some people wanted to get some money out of him did what they did, as a matter of fact that family that alleged Michael in 2005 has a history of doing these such things -

Here are the proceedings from that court case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Jackson

In 2000, Jackson was listed in the book of Guinness World Records for his support of 39 charities, more than any other entertainer or personality
From wiki.

I would suggest people posting negative comments to research for themselves before judging Michael Jackson, In my opinion he was a god gifted talent, who came just to make some really good music, RIP MJ, you'll always live in our heart.
 
Honesty is to not misrepresent how you perceive reality. An honest mistake or even delusion is not dishonesty. But what's so hard to stomach about having a child-like mind and openly displaying it in your performance and lifestyle? What is so immoral about having a production team to bring out this aspect of your character?

To me, someone who is delusional knows what they are doing, they know that they are living a fantasy, but the fantasy seems more appealing than reality. If he gets to 50 and still has the mind of a child that's something else. That's a learning difficulty. The whole "child like" act was annoying to me, a refusal to recognise that you have to grow up and can't stay as a child forever. If he was "child like" that makes him even more of a disturbed and unstable figure.
 
And the difference between Prince and Michael Jackson is that Prince is calculatedly eccentric, Michael Jackson was not all there.
 
Lets bring it back to the music for a second.

Michael was the standout voice of the jackson five which can be clearly heard on "I Want You Back", "Got To Be There" and "Ben"
When they became the Jackson's, a teenage Michael showed his command of rythmn and scored several dance hits including "Blame It On The boogie" and "Shake Your Body Down To the ground".

Teaming up with Brit Songwriter Rod Temperton (Heatwave) and producer Quincy Jones for "Off The Wall" was a defining moment for his solo career. I rate this album higher than Thriller because it broke new ground. Thriller was not only a great record but with John Landis' help the music video was completely reinvented.

If this was all he did it would be enough for most musicians but Michael continued to tour, dance and release new songs - "Smooth Criminal" anyone.

So I say give him his dues and let him rest in peace. The gifts he gave to music will keep on giving.
 
Mickael Jackson sold more than 100 million copies of 'Thriller' which is the best-selling album of all time.
Billie Jean was the first song I heard from him. He had a very unusual life but I prefer to remember him as an artist.
 
Michael was great but BILLY MAYS i will miss most out of all the people that have passed away recently i mean Michael is no BILLY MAYS
 
That's a pretty hard way to get to the top of the charts!

I bought the "Beat It" music video to show to my 12-year-old daughter, and told her that's how I knew Michael Jackson. She was astonished and amazed how that guy morphed into modern-day Michael.

I explained to her that is why many people my age felt he left us many years ago.
 
So, mr expert, tell me exactly which records AFTER Thriller had that influence? I can assure you, you cannot.

And let me tell you about a show tour in London. There was an artist from MJ's generation whose 21 nights sold out instantly as well some 2 years as well.

And those concerts were given within 2.5 months. MJ booked nearly a year for twice as many records. And this other artist gave at least 10 after parties, where he jammed with the likes of Elton John and Amy Winehouse. Mind you, after he played for over 2 hours straight. And that other artist gave more concerts since 2000 than MJ would have given since 1997, including those 50 concerts.

There is a immensely more talented musical genius out there. And he's still alive. Enjoy a real musical talent instead of a marketed freakshow.

You are wrong. Maybe you are to young to have listened to MJ but he is easily the Elvis of our generation. Do not even bring up the one hit wonder Amy Winehouse in this conversation.
 
The only Michael Jackson I liked died many years before this one.

I love the guy, but to me he died 10 years ago. Last great performance was the live show at Bucharest. The performances with Timberlake and Britney Spears were a joke (compared to his previous years).

RIP MJ!
 
Well I did pick up the essential MJ for only 16.99 on iTunes this weekend; I figured for 38 songs - of which most were #1 hits - it wasn’t such a steep price to pay. Despite people’s view on his personal life, I think we can all mostly agree he was definitely a great singer and performer.
 
He was a terrific showman, his shows were sharp...in a word perfect. The man knew what he did over the stage but getting down...he became extrange and confuse.

Anyway... we should remember him because what he did over the stage...everybody has something to hide (except for me and my monkey). ;)
so in the end...the trouble man dissapeared and the legend has born.

Just a question... did he was a musician really?... never saw him with a music instrument at his hands...well...in a piano playing in some pepsi ad but thats all...why is everybody telling he was a great musician...sorry if Im saying anything stupid.

greetings from mexico city...

P.S. I only like 3 or 4 MJ songs...but I still love his videos and dancing simple spectacular.
 
Maybe not, but Elton John sure does. And here is what he has to say



As said, Prince sold out 21 nights in O2 and actually played in 02. And is still alive and performing more in a year than MJ did in the last 15 years.

MJ may have been an icon, but musically he's an infant compared to Prince, both in quantity and quality.

I've not read enough of this thread to know why we're comparing Prince to Michael Jackson (seriously!? apples and oranges here) but speaking as a musician with over 20 years of performance behind me, I find Prince absolutely BORING. I was once a GIGANTIC Prince fan. However, I've found everything past the 1992 symbol record to be awful regurgitation. In my opinion, as a recording artist he's creatively paralyzed. And his *arrogance* about how great his current work is......ugh. I admit, he frustrates me now. But only because he was once so great and full of potential.

Everyone (including the man himself) goes on and on about how prolific he is. Bragging about the hundreds of songs he's got stashed away that are brilliant. I find this interesting, considering his last three records are full of the same *sound the same crap* I've been hearing from him for a decade now. I'd take quality over quantity any day.

Yes, Prince is still a great *performer* with a strong back catalogue to pull from. That said, I'd never go to one of his shows as I have no interest in having to listen to any music he's written since 92.

In no way shape or form do I think he's the greatest performer of our time.


To "ecapdeville" above me. Michael Jackson IS a musician. He is a singer. Remember, voice *is* an instrument and he's perhaps the best child singer I've ever heard. He wrote many of his melodies and had a HEAVY hand in putting his records together. All the way down to arrangement and instrumentation.

Also his massive list of songwriting credits should answer this question for you.
 
So, mr expert, tell me exactly which records AFTER Thriller had that influence? I can assure you, you cannot.

And let me tell you about a show tour in London. There was an artist from MJ's generation whose 21 nights sold out instantly as well some 2 years as well.

And those concerts were given within 2.5 months. MJ booked nearly a year for twice as many records. And this other artist gave at least 10 after parties, where he jammed with the likes of Elton John and Amy Winehouse. Mind you, after he played for over 2 hours straight. And that other artist gave more concerts since 2000 than MJ would have given since 1997, including those 50 concerts.

There is a immensely more talented musical genius out there. And he's still alive. Enjoy a real musical talent instead of a marketed freakshow.


I thought you are referring to Keith Harris And Orville the duck.
 
Some people are so single minded about the whole pedophile thing. I'm not going to quote people because it'd rather just say what I was thinking when I was reading some of the really ignorant remarks.

Michael Jackson pretty much missed out on a childhood because his father really pushed his music career. Fair enough, you could argue why has none of the other "Jackson Five" turned out like him, but Michael made it big quickly and his father knew he was going to be huge. His father has always taken credit for Michael's success, saying along the lines of "if it wasn't for me..". Now, a childhood is what sets you up for the future - socialising, having fun, seeing what's good in life. He didn't experience a lot of that. Maybe he couldn't deal with the corrupt way of adult life. Think of this: there's nothing more innocent than a baby's laugh. It makes you smile. It's a lovely thing. Same with kids - kids go crazy with bubbles. I think MJ really wanted to just experience what kids experienced when they blew bubbles, as it was a feeling of happiness he never really got to get. So, he builds himself a theme park, controversially hangs around with kids and just enjoys having fun with them. Nothing sexual - just enjoying the beauty of the innocence in a child's mind and trying to experience that innocence.

Next thing, he's got a court case and he's accused of being a pedophile. Any parent who truly believed their kid had been indecently touched by an adult would want that adult to perish and do everything possible to make that happen. Send him to prison, get him named as a pedophile. Get him on the sex offenders register. Things like that are what the outcome would have been if MJ had been a pedophile. Instead, the parent agrees an out of court settlement worth millions of dollars.

Now, how much money would you have to get given before you'd let Michael Jackson play with your kids..? Come on, the pedophile talk was all about the money. I'm pretty sure the kid that he was meant to have indecently touched eventually said that he had never been touched by MJ.

Michael Jackson was a pop superstar - he defined an era, has had such a huge influence on artists and is basically the most successful artist ever. He had a lot of mental issues, a lot of where because of a disrupted childhood. It's a shame what he ended up doing to himself, but one thing you can't dispute is his music.

RIP.
 
An amazing artist. And you know, if I was an artist and I died, and I found my albums taking up 90% of the most popular albums in iTunes, my life would be accomplished :D
 
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