Microsoft Executive Says iPad Pro Was Apple's Response to Surface

[Syscokid]

I was going to write some snarky anti-MS response to Gavin's "We don't follow" BS, but then thought: Why bother? Redmond is always going to be convinced they have a superior product because 90% of the marketplace buys based on price alone.

I remember the sign that hung in every Baskin-Robbins store in the 1960s: People who consider price alone are MS's lawful prey. Personally, I think I've added about six years to my life expectancy because I've assiduously avoided Windows since 1996.

Wow...You seriously think that the reason that the marketplace is 90% PC is because of price? I am guessing you have not entered the workforce yet to make such a crazy statement.

It has nothing to do with price it has EVERYTHING to do with whats compatible. I know so many businesses who have wanted to go Apple but cant because the software they use to run their business wont run on OSX. Look at any major corporation all of there software only runs on Windows so they cant move to Apple, even if the president wanted to. Apple is to restrictive to be accepted in the real world.

 

[LordVic]

I again must disagree with you. They were tremendously useless, even for the time. The touch support on the OS was terrible which meant that you couldn't use Windows with the touchscreen. You really couldn't, I promise you. The odd thing it could do was drag around a window with the extremely laggy and poorly calibrated touchscreen.

Yes it was for geeks and executives, because they were the only ones who could imagine sinking such money into something that was essentially a gimmick. They had no practical purpose. Price wasn't the object because if a product's good, it'll sell. That's what it was: a gimmick. Look, I can touch the screen. Once that wore off, there was no purpose to it. Honestly I'm not misremembering this.

If we're talking about retroactively applying bias to technology in 2017, I must make the point you seem just as guilty of this with what I can only describe as a nostalgic argument. However I will give you the benefit of the doubt and do my best to look up some reviews of the time.

I can only personally assure you that I thought they were rubbish at the time once I came to use them and the "cool factor" wore off; and so did everybody else that I knew who tried to use one once they got beyond the gimmick. However currently it's two against one so I must have been doing something wrong.

I'm not sure how old you are, but back in early 2000's, and 90's, nobody outside of rich managers/executives or sales people had portable electronics.

heck, it wasn't until the iPod that consumers even knew most technology in computers existed.

I think you're misremembering things. It's easy to do 15-20 years later when technology is where it is today. which is lightyears ahead. it's crazy, just looking at my nieces and realizing they'll never grow up in a world where 90% of the world didn't use a computer outside of the office like our generation or any generation before us got.

its' just easy to look at the state of connectivity and technology in 2017 and forget how it was 15 years ago.

 

[happyprozak]

I have a 12.9" iPad and a Surface Pro 4. The Surface hardware design is superior to the iPad.

The keyboard is better and the kickstand is amazingly useful. The magnetic pen holder is also nice.

The aesthetic design is also more pleasing to me.

Where the iPad rules is in ease of use, security, and developer support. The ease of use isn't a factor for me but I know it's important for many novice users. The security I do care about, iOS devices are extremely safe. Even though I'm smart enough to stay out of trouble, I know most users aren't. Where the iPad really rules is in developer support.

The Microsoft app store is truly a sad mess and it lacks developer support. That's the reason I even have an iPad, the apps.

For professional work the Surface is superior as it runs desktop apps that are superior to iPad apps. But for someone who just wants to play, the choice is clear, the iPad rules. Lots of great apps that fall short of being professional quality but that are more affordable and a better experience for someone who just wants to play and isn't looking to make a living with it.

 

[keysofanxiety]

I'm not sure how old you are, but back in early 2000's, and 90's, nobody outside of rich managers/executives or sales people had portable electronics.

heck, it wasn't until the iPod that consumers even knew most technology in computers existed.

I think you're misremembering things. It's easy to do 15-20 years later when technology is where it is today. which is lightyears ahead. it's crazy, just looking at my nieces and realizing they'll never grow up in a world where 90% of the world didn't use a computer outside of the office like our generation or any generation before us got.

its' just easy to look at the state of connectivity and technology in 2017 and forget how it was 15 years ago.

To be honest, you sound so sure of yourself that I'm beginning to doubt myself.

I definitely appreciate a lot what you're saying. My mind still plays tricks on me whenever anybody mentions the '90s. My brain still defaults to thinking it's 10 years ago.

I really respect you taking the time to patiently (and courteously) talk me through what's what with that. Hope I didn't come across as blunt or rude! The other poster seemed to agree with you so there's a strong possibility I'm misremembering or subconsciously skewing my memory of how bad I thought those touchscreen laptops were. Of course it's equally possible I thought they were crap back then as well, but your passionate response leads me to believe that they were a bit better than I'm giving them credit for.

Have a great weekend Lord! Thanks again

 

[DNichter]

I wan't so bad to agree with you. I want stick your post in fanboy faces and yell "read this". Only issue is, they arn't close enough to be a choice. If you want to have a full onenote experience you need the Surface. If you want true sync with an iPhone you need an iPad. If you want worry free app availablity you need a surface. If you want ease of mind for getting new safe software go iPad. If you want quality demo software go Surface. If you want the same app on your computer as you do your phone, go iPad. If you want access to beta software go Surface. If you want stylus free touch go iPad. If you want to consume lots of PDFs without having to zoom in and out go Surface.

Every time you add something you want to do you increase the chances whatever you pick will not work for you. I don't think they are at the point where I can just say X is the best for for me. I can say X is better for me, but not best. Best suggests that one brand solve most problems. I feel they are spit 50-50 right now.

All fair points. Personally, I have grown to prefer an iPad as macOS and Windows 10 have both grown stale to me.

 

[gnipgnop]

C'mon, MS...the Surface started out as a muddled multi-tier product that was a kinda-sorta attempt at making an MS branded iPad, and now it's basically just a touchscreen Windows laptop in a different form factor. Just look at these forums: the people who tout the Surface always primarily focus on the fact that it runs exactly the same OS and exactly the same applications as a laptop.

 

[kruegdude]

"the iPad Pro is Apple's closest attempt at a two-in-one hybrid device."

Wow, I'm pretty sure the iPad Pro is not in any way an attempt at a two-in-one hybrid device. In fact I'm also pretty sure Apple has said as much.

Bill

 

[DNichter]

I'm not trying to say that one is better than the other. just that your comment didn't have the evidence I think you intended.

The same rule applies here as for any computer purchasing

The right tool for the right job.

the iPad and iPad pro lineup can very well be the right tool for many cases. but it's not the be all end all device that does everything perfectly.
The Surface Pro lineup can very well be the right tool for many cases, but it too is not the be all, end all device that does everything perfectly.

I'm just amused by the very bi-partisan thinking that most people in this thread have had. in their mindsets its all about #1. and whoever is #1 in their mind is the best and everything else sucks.

I constantly make this analogy whenever this sort of thread comes up.

it's like comparing two school children. one of the children gets a 96 on an exam, the next student gets a 95 on the exam. Both students are A+ students. Both are fantastically smart. and calling one "crap" over the other doesn't indicate any intelligence of the person making the claim.

I am with you, very different products in my opinion. The only thing that gets frustrating for an iPad user is saying that there is no way it can be your only computer. It's a very short sighted view and clearly isn't the case.

 

[Rogifan]

Why do people want to turn the iPad into a laptop? If you need the capabilities of macOS buy a Mac laptop.

We know why Microsoft created Surface - they had no footprint in mobile. But their latest Surface product is a standard Ultrabook style laptop. To me that's Microsoft admitting what customers really want is a laptop not some hybrid product that isn't really great as a laptop or tablet.

 

[gnipgnop]

Every time you add something you want to do you increase the chances whatever you pick will not work for you. I don't think they are at the point where I can just say X is the best for for me. I can say X is better for me, but not best. Best suggests that one brand solve most problems. I feel they are spit 50-50 right now.

Surface doesn't really compete with the iPad. It competes with Apple laptops.

 

[LordVic]

To be honest, you sound so sure of yourself that I'm beginning to doubt myself.

I definitely appreciate a lot what you're saying. My mind still plays tricks on me whenever anybody mentions the '90s. My brain still defaults to thinking it's 10 years ago.

I really respect you taking the time to patiently (and courteously) talk me through what's what with that. Hope I didn't come across as blunt or rude! The other poster seemed to agree with you so there's a strong possibility I'm misremembering or subconsciously skewing my memory of how bad I thought those touchscreen laptops were. Of course it's equally possible I thought they were crap back then as well, but your passionate response leads me to believe that they were a bit better than I'm giving them credit for.

Have a great weekend Lord! Thanks again

you too. Have a good weeeknd

and don't get me wrong, the XP based tablets definitely did not age nearly as well as modern iPad's have.

 

[DNichter]

Why do people want to turn the iPad into a laptop? If you need the capabilities of macOS buy a Mac laptop.

It's a computer, capable of doing computer tasks. There is nothing you need to do besides turn it on. macOS has become very boring (to me) and I would prefer to use an iPad moving forward.

 

[4jasontv]

Surface doesn't really compete with the iPad. It competes with Apple laptops.

Tell Apple that. As long as they are under the impression that iPads are type of computer they will be compared to them.

 

[DNichter]

What I have never really understood is what separates the Surface from any other cheap Windows 10 touchscreen laptop? It seems to me they do essentially the same thing.

 

[Syscokid]

What I have never really understood is what separates the Surface from any other cheap Windows 10 touchscreen laptop? It seems to me they do essentially the same thing.

I would have to say the quality and how thin it is.

 

[LordVic]

What I have never really understood is what separates the Surface from any other cheap Windows 10 touchscreen laptop? It seems to me they do essentially the same thing.

Which Surface? Pro? laptop? Studio? Book?

but yeah, there are far cheaper laptops in windows land that are going to do basically the same functionality as the surface laptop. Just like Apple's price points, you're paying here for the premium brand (Microsoft) and premium construction (metals instead of plastics for example)

This is similar accross the board on their devices. Yes, there are cheaper equally specced laptops/tablets/2-in-1s/all-in-ones. but the premium price is for microsoft's recent build quality and brand

but if $999 is too much for a basic windows laptop and you're fine with one of lesser build, there's thousands of options

Microsoft has essentially taken Apple's old business model for their computers. yes, there are computers out there for cheaper. you just have to understand what you're saving on and what risks might be involved by buying a cheaper product.

 

[ignatius345]

If we're gonna talk about copying, the iPhone and its App Store invented this entire paradigm. The iPad is just a specialized (larger) version of the same idea, and the iPad Pro / Surface / whatever... that's all just more refinement of that one idea.

In the end, I don't think anybody cares who was "first" -- we all just want the best product and the one that works with whatever other hardware and software we already use. If you're a Windows person, that may well be the Surface, and if you're a Mac person, it's gonna be an iPad (Pro).

 

[thekeyring]

Uh oh. Many long time MR readers heads will explode at this one. My how times have changed.

I feel this is more true now. Microsoft does seem to be running its own race, which is nice.

What's crazy though is how Apple can do something like increase a screen size and are suddenly "copying" a competitor, but competitors can clone Apple products (I'm remembering the early years of the Samsung Galaxy where they modified everything they could from the Android UI to their wall adaptors to make them more Apple-like) and that's labelled "competition".

 

[DNichter]

Which Surface? Pro? laptop? Studio? Book?

but yeah, there are far cheaper laptops in windows land that are going to do basically the same functionality as the surface laptop. Just like Apple's price points, you're paying here for the premium brand (Microsoft) and premium construction (metals instead of plastics for example)

This is similar accross the board on their devices. Yes, there are cheaper equally specced laptops/tablets/2-in-1s/all-in-ones. but the premium price is for microsoft's recent build quality and brand

but if $999 is too much for a basic windows laptop and you're fine with one of lesser build, there's thousands of options

Microsoft has essentially taken Apple's old business model for their computers. yes, there are computers out there for cheaper. you just have to understand what you're saving on and what risks might be involved by buying a cheaper product.

Sorry, I was referring to the Pro. I am just wondering if that's really a good business model. People are used to paying for the quality of Apple's products, not Windows laptops. And you can't get an Apple product anywhere else. Now I agree that what they are doing now are great quality products, but I feel that most people in that ecosystem would look at the two options and choose the cheaper the majority of the time. I think Windows is taking a good approach by giving quality options over the rest of their partners, but I am just not sure how lucrative it will be for them, or how many they will actually sell. Maybe that's just not the point though. I guess the only point is to paint themselves as a more premium brand.

 

[The Cappy]

Microsoft executive Ryan Gavin this week suggested Apple released the iPad Pro in response to its Surface devices, per Business Insider.

"When Surface initially launched, everyone was skeptical, including them," said Gavin, general manager of Surface commercial devices at Microsoft. "And then they followed, and the iPad Pro is a clear example of that."

Microsoft positions the latest Surface Pro, released on Thursday, as a "best-in-class laptop" with the "versatility of a studio and tablet."

The new Surface Pro features Intel's latest Kaby Lake processors and up to 13.5 hours of battery life on a single charge. The tablet-notebook hybrid can be configured with up to a 1TB SSD, up to 16GB RAM, and up to Intel Iris Plus 640 graphics, with a USB 3.0 port, microSD card reader, and Mini DisplayPort.

During a 2012 earnings call, when asked to comment on why the MacBook Air and iPad would not eventually converge, Apple CEO Tim Cook argued that combining the products would result in compromises.

"You can converge a toaster and a refrigerator but those won't be pleasing to the user," said Cook, a comment that Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella poked fun at four years later, alluding to the iPad Pro.

"I mean, take even Surface," said Nadella, speaking to The Australian Financial Review. "Three years ago, the two-in-one as a form factor was questioned. Does anybody need one? And now guess what, even our competition has decided that it's not a refrigerator and a toaster but it's actually a two-in-one."

While the iPad and Mac remain two fundamentally different products, the iPad Pro is Apple's closest attempt at a two-in-one hybrid device.

Apple released the original iPad Pro with a large 12.9-inch display and Smart Keyboard in November 2015, over three years after Microsoft launched its first Surface tablet with a 10.6-inch display and detachable keyboard.

In contrast, the Surface was arguably Microsoft's response to the iPad as a whole. Apple's tablet launched in early 2010, and the Surface arrived in late 2012.

Cook has said the iPad Pro is a notebook or desktop computer replacement for "many, many people," adding that "they will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones."

As for Microsoft following Apple? "We don't really look at Apple," said Gavin.

Article Link: Microsoft Executive Says iPad Pro Was Apple's Response to Surface

[doublepost=1497640333][/doublepost]The iPad Pro was Apple's response to Microsoft's response to the iPad? Well huh.

 

[4jasontv]

C'mon, MS...the Surface started out as a muddled multi-tier product that was a kinda-sorta attempt at making an MS branded iPad, and now it's basically just a touchscreen Windows laptop in a different form factor. Just look at these forums: the people who tout the Surface always primarily focus on the fact that it runs exactly the same OS and exactly the same applications as a laptop.

You're right. We do. The debate exists is because being able to write on the screen is very useful. Some of us want a computer that can do that, and Apple has decided to split that ability off from their computers. Many of us want a Touchscreen Mac. We want the power of the macOS and hardware with the added ability to use a stylus to to control it. Some people are happy with iOS. Some aren't. This leaves us with an endless debate where two products are great except that they are two different things. Sure, the iPad pro has a better touch UX than the Surface. Sure, macOS is more stable than Win10. Then again, the touchscreen on the MacBook Pro is missing, as is the flexability to do what you want with your iPad. So the argument is: ours solutions are better vs. at least my one device can do both.

So go ahead and point out that MS changed the purpose of the Surface after a few releases, but realize that Apple launches products all the time with no idea what to do with it. Look at the appleTV and apple watch. They launched these things and shrugged their usefulness off with "developers will makes apps". I don't think that was the answer to either of these things, and I don't think apps have made the apple solutions better. Eventually Apple with figure something out, and only then will they explode in the market. (And no, neither have exactly exploded in popularity. Sure, they may be top sellers, but they arn't must have devices.)

 

[thekeyring]

This is disingenuous at best.

MS would be foolish and misguided to not keep abreast of their competition. Perhaps what he intended to say, and did so quite inelegantly, was “We don’t look to apple for inspiration or follow their paths. We forge our own.”

And even then, I don’t believe that.

Agreed totally. Even Apple look at the competition. There was a story about their battery technicians taking a Galaxy Note 7 into the lab to see what the deal was with the battery, wasn't there?
[doublepost=1497640476][/doublepost]

"the iPad Pro is Apple's closest attempt at a two-in-one hybrid device."

Wow, I'm pretty sure the iPad Pro is not in any way an attempt at a two-in-one hybrid device. In fact I'm also pretty sure Apple has said as much.

Bill

And Apple has been criticised because it isn't a two-in-one device!

 

[LordVic]

Sorry, I was referring to the Pro. I am just wondering if that's really a good business model. People are used to paying for the quality of Apple's products, not Windows laptops. And you can't get an Apple product anywhere else. Now I agree that what they are doing now are great quality products, but I feel that most people in that ecosystem would look at the two options and choose the cheaper the majority of the time. I think Windows is taking a good approach by giving quality options over the rest of their partners, but I am just not sure how lucrative it will be for them, or how many they will actually sell. Maybe that's just not the point though. I guess the only point is to paint themselves as a more premium brand.

Microsoft never claimed they wanted to hit the prestige of name like Apple did with their mac lineup. the Surface lineup is meant more as a lower volume example to OEM's of what microsoft believes the "ideal" hardware for their platform is

OEM's, like always, have just been really slow at changing direction, where Microsoft, who didn't really have a hardware lineup before, was able to do so quickly.

we're starting to see in the last year, competition trying their own versions of "surface" devices, that all tend to be cheaper than Microsoft's own offering, and I think Microsoft is perfectly ok with this (remember, a windows device sold is a windows device sold, regardless of who actually makes it)

 

[4jasontv]

Sorry, I was referring to the Pro. I am just wondering if that's really a good business model. People are used to paying for the quality of Apple's products, not Windows laptops. And you can't get an Apple product anywhere else. Now I agree that what they are doing now are great quality products, but I feel that most people in that ecosystem would look at the two options and choose the cheaper the majority of the time. I think Windows is taking a good approach by giving quality options over the rest of their partners, but I am just not sure how lucrative it will be for them, or how many they will actually sell. Maybe that's just not the point though. I guess the only point is to paint themselves as a more premium brand.

I don't think Microsoft wants to be the best selling brand of laptop. I think they want to get the word out that high end Windows machines exist so that OEMs can build and sell machines that generate more revenue. This is the idea that Apple used with their iPod speaker they sold. It's existence jumpstarted demand for $100+ accessories.
[doublepost=1497640783][/doublepost]

And Apple has been criticised because it isn't a two-in-one device!

That's a much better way to say what I have been trying to say.

 

[thekeyring]

I have a 12.9" iPad and a Surface Pro 4. The Surface hardware design is superior to the iPad.

The keyboard is better and the kickstand is amazingly useful. The magnetic pen holder is also nice.

The aesthetic design is also more pleasing to me.

Where the iPad rules is in ease of use, security, and developer support. The ease of use isn't a factor for me but I know it's important for many novice users. The security I do care about, iOS devices are extremely safe. Even though I'm smart enough to stay out of trouble, I know most users aren't. Where the iPad really rules is in developer support.

The Microsoft app store is truly a sad mess and it lacks developer support. That's the reason I even have an iPad, the apps.

For professional work the Surface is superior as it runs desktop apps that are superior to iPad apps. But for someone who just wants to play, the choice is clear, the iPad rules. Lots of great apps that fall short of being professional quality but that are more affordable and a better experience for someone who just wants to play and isn't looking to make a living with it.

Surface vs iPad is the nicest competition to see - two different philosophies and great, original ideas from both sides, with superb products for users.

I'm glad that's tablet computing. It's so much nicer than the smartphone industry where - at the beginning at any rate - everyone copied Apple.