Microsoft Launches Zune HD

[whooleytoo]

For example, what does a better viewing angle really matter on a mobile device? How often are you viewing a handheld device from such angles? Likewise, the relative values of backlighting and power-consuming black pixels on a mobile device becomes painfully apparent in direct sunlight.

For an individual user, a better viewing angle isn't too important. In a more social environment (say, if you're showing people some photos or videos on your phone), the viewing angle is more important than on, say, a TV, since the screen is so small.

I'd agree, that brightness is more important; if you use your phone outside a lot.

 

[kdarling]

Nor am I on either side of OLED and LCD... although I admit to a soft spot for transflective LCDs because of their readability in sunlight.

(Whenever we order custom built handhelds, transflective is on the top of my list. So is often a display heater for winter days, to keep the display working outside. You can't get the heater in normal consumer models.)

Still, technical articles should try to give both sides.

 

[DMann]

Yes I know. That's one of the reasons why AI has gone down the toilet.

We get it - anyone who reveals valid and credible weaknesses with any of MS products, in your opinion, is toilet worthy.

For an individual user, a better viewing angle isn't too important. In a more social environment (say, if you're showing people some photos or videos on your phone), the viewing angle is more important than on, say, a TV, since the screen is so small.

I'd agree, that brightness is more important; if you use your phone outside a lot.

Now this all depends on the user. I can think of many users who would prefer to have their private information less visible peripherally, especially in public places. While viewing media, though, under ideal lighting conditions, the trade-off between having a significantly smaller screen and wider viewing angle may work for the Zune. Here's hoping that the next iteration of OLED will be able to handle direct sunlight better with quasi-transflective pixels, in combination with brighter, adjustable luminescence. This would not only benefit the Zune, but the next revision of the iPhone/iPod touch as well.

 

[CylonGlitch]

Did I mention, I'm a Linux user, almost full time (work and at home), I also have a PS3. I don't have an iPod but I absolutely love my brother's iPhone 3GS and I absolutely enjoyed the days I was messing around with OS X (hackintosh, but I have the right to say the OS is great).

I don't understand the hate either, seriously. I was a PC fan for 25+ years and switched to Mac a few years ago. Sure it works for me, and does exactly what I want it to do without some of the headaches that Windows has. But it isn't perfect, nothing is. I run Windows 7 at home on some machines, and it's a good OS. I hated Vista, but it didn't bother me, I stuck with XP. I have Windows 7 on order, no big deal.

I switch to Mac in 1988 and man did things suck back then. PC's weren't great but Macs were just horrific. Color was a new thing and the Mac II (original) what a hunk of junk. The OS was buggy and unstable; I could not take it! After 6 months I sold the pig and stayed PC for close to 20 more years.

Will there come a day when there is something better then what I have now? Maybe, I don't see why not. What will I do? Switch. I try not to stay tied to any one vendor of anything.

Sometimes I sound like a fanboy but I just enjoy what I have right now. But that doesn't make it perfect for everyone, and that doesn't mean it will last forever. Enjoy what you have, here and now. Worry about tomorrow when that happens.

Ok, but sometimes it is fun to throw stones. Zune HD, is that 1% of their 1% market share?

 

[BongoBanger]

We get it - anyone who reveals valid and credible weaknesses with any of MS products, in your opinion, is toilet worthy.

Quite incorrect. There are many, many things wrong with Microsoft and many, many people have pointed them out quite rightly. Unfortunately Dilger has lost all perspective and credibility and is little more than an embarrassment.

I think it happened when he did a 180 on third party apps on mobile platforms or maybe it was when he invented the global conspiracy that Microsoft paid Charlie Miller and the other hackers to target Apple first. Perhaps earlier, who knows? Of course you will have your own opinions - there are two sides to every story after all.

Well unless you're Daniel Eran Dilger that is.

 

[birch25]

Competition is good when the other competitor isn't an entrenched monopoly known for peddling mediocre wares. Microsoft is not a healthy competitor and I really despise this argument that Microsoft competing with Apple is a good thing for all. No it isn't.

Microsoft needs to focus on 2 things... Windows and Office. Both are their bread and butter but they keep failing their shareholders by expanding into new markets and losing a ton of cash.

Had Palm not originally taken off, there never would've been WindowsCE.

Without the iPod, there would not be a Zune.

Without the iPod Touch, there would not be the ZuneHD.

I could go on an on...

Microsoft tries to destroy open standards every chance they get. That is not fair competition. Blu-ray was nearly undone by Microsoft propping up Toshiba's HD DVD merely in an effort to defeat the launch of the Playstation 3. Is that healthy competition? No.

What we are truly missing in MP3 player competition is a healthy Sony taking on Apple. I would love to see the market split between Apple and Sony but Sony has to overcome their ever persistent hurdle with software.

You criticize Microsoft for not embracing open standards but think Sony is who should be competing in this market? Sony is even worse! Have a Sony digital camera? It doesn't have an SD card but a Memory Stick. Have a PSP? It uses UMD instead of flash memory. Remember MiniDisk?

Microsoft has every right to compete in this market. The Zune HD is the best product on the market that competes with the iPod Touch. If nothing else, the Zune HD costs less than the 2G iTouch did and drove the prices of the new Touches down. I'm not saying I'm going to drop my Touch, but the Zune HD is a quality product.

 

[clevin]

We get it - anyone who reveals valid and credible weaknesses with any of MS products, in your opinion, is toilet worthy.

you don't have to pretend the opposite isn't true here. massive amount of people here won't tolerate any criticism of any apple products and being xxx about whoever post them.

I found apple critics here are usually more facts based than apple fanboys. and dont forget, those who pointing out apple's weakness are those who actually made contribution to the further products, that benefit both apple and apple fanboys who bought that products.

a thank you is not demanded, but dont be ungracious.

 

[MacFly123]

I think the facts are more profound if you just take a quick look at above photos.

e.g., your linked article says

now look at it, what do you think?

also the articles filled with tech terms, ended with conclusions that are filled with speculations or partial facts that may or may not be biased, I really dont think it would enlighten normal end users.

I agree. But for tech people like us, I thought it was very interesting. I realize it is very biased coming from Apple Insider, but there were some interesting points. Like the hype of the Tegra chip and the history of them being a former Apple supplier, and some of the numbers on OLED battery stats, etc.

I think the Zune HD is by far their best attempt yet, but it really is just a repackaged next attempt after multiple failures, which is what Microsoft pretty much always does. So no matter how cool they try to spin it, I don't think this one will be massively successful either. I do appreciate the competition to push Apple further though!

 

[clevin]

I agree. But for tech people like us, I thought it was very interesting. I realize it is very biased coming from Apple Insider, but there were some interesting points. Like the hype of the Tegra chip and the history of them being a former Apple supplier, and some of the numbers on OLED battery stats, etc.

i think the battery claim is unfounded, ZUNE HD has spec out for a while, and it apparently has longer battery life than iPT.

Tegra chip, I completely do NOT have opinion on it, however, I dont think THEY should have any prediction on that neither, to make a assertion on the future of a relatively new technology is just crazy.

 

[MorphingDragon]

you don't have to pretend the opposite isn't true here. massive amount of people here won't tolerate any criticism of any apple products and being xxx about whoever post them.

I found apple critics here are usually more facts based than apple fanboys. and dont forget, those who pointing out apple's weakness are those who actually made contribution to the further products, that benefit both apple and apple fanboys who bought that products.

a thank you is not demanded, but dont be ungracious.

So True.

The next iPod touch better blow my freaken mind or Im not gonna buy squat.

 

[DMann]

I don't understand the hate either, seriously. I was a PC fan for 25+ years and switched to Mac a few years ago. Sure it works for me, and does exactly what I want it to do without some of the headaches that Windows has. But it isn't perfect, nothing is. I run Windows 7 at home on some machines, and it's a good OS. I hated Vista, but it didn't bother me, I stuck with XP. I have Windows 7 on order, no big deal.

I switch to Mac in 1988 and man did things suck back then. PC's weren't great but Macs were just horrific. Color was a new thing and the Mac II (original) what a hunk of junk. The OS was buggy and unstable; I could not take it! After 6 months I sold the pig and stayed PC for close to 20 more years.

Will there come a day when there is something better then what I have now? Maybe, I don't see why not. What will I do? Switch. I try not to stay tied to any one vendor of anything.

Sometimes I sound like a fanboy but I just enjoy what I have right now. But that doesn't make it perfect for everyone, and that doesn't mean it will last forever. Enjoy what you have, here and now. Worry about tomorrow when that happens.

Ok, but sometimes it is fun to throw stones. Zune HD, is that 1% of their 1% market share?

Had you held out for System 7 (1991) things would have been significantly better. I had 2 Mac Quadra 950s from '91-'95 before upgrading to Power PCs ('95-'02). Systems 9 was really, really stable, for running a recording studio, editing and burning digital media, arranging, printing & publishing music and journals. The Win3.1, 95, 98, 2000 machines I had were far too abysmal for productivity, incapable of handling QuarkExpress, Finale, Logic, Avid, Photoshop, & Toast without perpetually crashing. I switched over to 10.2 (Jaguar) in '02 after upgrading to G4s, then G5s, Pro towers, etc., and haven't looked back since. I continue to run a partition of W7 just in case the need arises, but this hasn't happened yet.

 

[DMann]

Quite incorrect. There are many, many things wrong with Microsoft and many, many people have pointed them out quite rightly. Unfortunately Dilger has lost all perspective and credibility and is little more than an embarrassment.

I think it happened when he did a 180 on third party apps on mobile platforms or maybe it was when he invented the global conspiracy that Microsoft paid Charlie Miller and the other hackers to target Apple first. Perhaps earlier, who knows? Of course you will have your own opinions - there are two sides to every story after all.

Well unless you're Daniel Eran Dilger that is.

Yet you erroneously and haphazardly deemed Daniel Eran Dilger responsible for the writing in question:

I take the point about OLED screens but would point out that the examples given refer to first generation low nit screens (the N85 series 1 is a 170 nit screen - the series 2 replaced it with a superior 300 nit model).

Dilger's argument is spurious until we know the specifications of the Samsung AMS326FA05 display the Zune HD uses. I'm guessing it's a second geenration screen but let's wait and see.

However, let's not kid ourselves - OLED screens are the way forward and I find it ironic that Dilger - who is a critic of the OLED in the Zune - was waxing lyrical about the possibility of an OLED in the rumoured iPad.

That's the problem with Dilger - he's inconsistent and doesn't do enough research. That and he's quite mad obviously.

If anyone "has lost all perspective and credibility and is little more than an embarrassment," that would be you. The great extent of derisive and pejorative finger pointing emanating from you, is quite hypocritical, to say the very least.

 

[LagunaSol]

Gizmodo review " The Zune HD is the best touchscreen PMP on the market. enuff said!

This is kind of like saying "X is the best SUV on the market!" - when the market doesn't really care about SUVs any longer.

I'm sure the Zune HD is a great device, but the world has moved on from PMPs that do nothing but play music and videos. 2 years ago the Zune HD would have been a hot item. But I think in 2009 it will get mostly yawns from consumers. Why buy a music/video-only PMP when, for the same money, I can also use email, Facebook, eBay, Evernote, Shazam, Slacker Radio, Google Maps, and any one of thousands of other things? I wouldn't. Nor would 99% of other buyers. These are the facts. And the Zune fanboys (yep, it swings both ways people) may rant and rave about it, but those facts won't change.

A lot of the reviews I've read claim that Microsoft isn't trying to compete with the iPod touch. I disagree. In fact, the argument is laughable. I think they merely aren't able to compete yet, with the lack of a mature software foundation for the device. Can anyone say with a straight face that Microsoft isn't trying to take sales from the iPod touch? That they are perfectly content with the distant #2 spot? Please. Anyone who thinks Microsoft is happy with leftovers doesn't know Microsoft very well.

And what happens when the iPod touch has an OLED screen and a camera (which it will)? What will be the big sales pitch for the Zune HD? HD radio. Seriously? Yes, Apple blew it with such a wimpy update this month - they could have put a knife in the Zune HD right out of the oven. That said, you know these iPod updates are coming - and they'll just make the Zune HD look even more irrelevant.

It doesn't take an "Apple fanboy" (a favorite derisive around here) to recognize that the Zune HD is a new product in a product category the world is no longer really interested in. All those positive reviews from the tech punditry is not going to move these things off the shelves in any significant number.

Will the Zune add an SDK and an App Store? Eventually, sure. Probably when they announce the inevitable ZunePhone. Will it be too little, too late? Probably. Android and Palm can't get any real traction with their apps yet. By the time Microsoft enters the game, the outcome will have already been decided. But Microsoft will continue to pour billions into its Xbox/Zune efforts in a desperate quest for "cool."

 

[clevin]

Why buy a music/video-only PMP when, for the same money, I can also use email, Facebook, eBay, Evernote, Shazam, Slacker Radio, Google Maps, and any one of thousands of other things? I wouldn't. Nor would 99% of other buyers. These are the facts. And the Zune fanboys (yep, it swings both ways people) may rant and rave about it, but those facts won't change.

Zune HD does browsing, you didn't get the data sheet? and facebook is in developing as well.

for the same money, with Zune HD, you got HD radio, fabulous UI, crazy beautiful display, great feeling and shape in hand and in front of people with large fat iPT, even free unique and fashionable engrave arts! Do those counts? of course they do for end users, only apple defender will intentionally ignore them.

MS probably did some market research and figure browser is THE most used features, which is probably true, correct?

not to mention, google map? gps? browser? ebay? do you even know any smartphone in the market don't do those? if people already have phones to do those, why exactly its important for Zune HD to have them?

99% of buyers? why people like you love to make up data from nowhere ALL THE TIME? is fact based discussion just beyond you guys?

 

[KnightWRX]

Except the browser is the atrocious IE 6. GG.

 

[clevin]

Except the browser is the atrocious IE 6. GG.

gizmodo seems to think its fine, I will test it when I got it.

 

[kdarling]

Except the browser is the atrocious IE 6. GG.

Naw, not really. That's just what they call it.

Mobile IE6 uses IE8's Javascript engine, for example. It also has some IE7 display features. But it's reportedly based on the lighter weight IE6 codebase, heavily modified.

IE6 has worked fine for years on my work computer. We have a lot of corporate sites that need to stay that way, too.

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

IE6 has worked fine for years on my work computer. We have a lot of corporate sites that need to stay that way, too.

I take it you've never visited a web page in your life.

 

[clevin]

I take it you've never visited a web page in your life.

dont be too low, my friend, IE has 70% of market anyway, facts can not be denied, why making statement that has absolutely no meaning, except insulting other people?

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

dont be too low, my friend, IE has 70% of market anyway, facts can not be denied, why making statement that has absolutely no meaning, except insulting other people?

Sorry I just have bad memories with that browser. I hadn't touched it in years, in fact it's highly probable that my last encounter with IE was IE 5, but I had to use it to test my web pages in a design course. Gah! Every line of code perfect, every bit of CSS formatted correctly, each drop of javascript written elegantly. Safari and Firefox both swam through my galleries and info pages, but the second I opened a site in IE 6 it would all fall apart. So many bad margins and several images misaligned.

Sorry, but IE 6 is a complete waste of code.

 

[cumanzor]

I take it you've never visited a web page in your life.

I take it you've never worked in a corporate environment before.

That being said, IE6 is the worst thing that could ever happened to the web.

 

[DMann]

Except the browser is the atrocious IE 6. GG.

Actually, it is fine, as long as you can tolerate page load speeds of a dial-up modem:

 

[LagunaSol]

Zune HD does browsing, you didn't get the data sheet? and facebook is in developing as well.

You might want to check the reviews on the Zune HD's browser experience. Try ArsTechnica. It's not good. [EDIT: I see DMann included the graph from the Ars review above. Ouch.]

And "in development" doesn't mean squat. Am I going to buy a device that promises some apps someday in the future or the device that offers 70,000 of them right now?

for the same money, with Zune HD, you got HD radio, fabulous UI, crazy beautiful display, great feeling and shape in hand and in front of people with large fat iPT, even free unique and fashionable engrave arts! Do those counts? of course they do for end users, only apple defender will intentionally ignore them.

Windows market share shows that people don't care about "fabulous UI" - they care about ubiquity.

iPod touch is "fat?" I believe it's thinner than the Zune HD, FYI.

"Unique and engrave arts?" Really? That's a selling point??? Geez, they should have thrown some neon lights in the Zune too to give it that true hardcore gamer vibe.

Not only will "Apple defenders" ignore these "features" you tout - the buying public will too. Watch.

not to mention, google map? gps? browser? ebay? do you even know any smartphone in the market don't do those? if people already have phones to do those, why exactly its important for Zune HD to have them?

Ah, so every potential Zune HD buyer already has a smartphone. Uh huh.

99% of buyers? why people like you love to make up data from nowhere ALL THE TIME? is fact based discussion just beyond you guys?

I'll let the sure-to-be-disappointing sales numbers for the Zune HD speak for themselves, just as the disappointing sales numbers for prior Zune models have done (which is, BTW, a fact).

I remember when FM radio and squirting songs was to be the death of the iPod. Ah, nostalgia...

The Zune vs. iPod arguments are funny though. The Microsoft defenders are now arguing the benefits of the snazzy UI on the Zune while the Apple fans argue for the vast ecosystem of the iPod. Talk about complete role reversal. Curious times indeed.

Even more curious is the adamant and vocal pro-Zune brigade on a Mac/Apple-centric forum for a device that 1) competes directly with an Apple product and 2) is not even Mac compatible. Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[trekkie604]

Actually, it is fine, as long as you can tolerate page load speeds of a dial-up modem:

afaik my first-gen iPod touch with the original iPhone OS would have safari randomly quit for no reason. Growing pains, man.

 

[clevin]

Actually, it is fine, as long as you can tolerate page load speeds of a dial-up modem:

I will copy my reply to this figure from another post to make sure readers understand what you are putting out.

gizmodo seems to think browser is fine.

Sunspider isn't exactly a test suite for mobile browsers, large amount of js functions just doesn't make any use on a mobile browser. e.g., a hovering event.

furthermore, sunspider runs each function 1 million times to measure difference, so that 184356 is merely 0.1s, can you tell?

on top of that, you are intentionally, or unknowingly, trying to equal JS speed to page loading speed, which is totally bogus.

You might want to check the reviews on the Zune HD's browser experience. Try ArsTechnica. It's not good.

1. you can pick and chose the reviews all you want, fact is ars stated "third time is a charm", with NO question mark, and it praise ZUNE HD in many aspect.
2. gizmodo has review as well, calling zune HD "best of the breed", and stated the browser experience is "fine".

I apparently checked more reviews than you, and I dont make statement like you do, based on partial facts, or no facts at all.

And "in development" doesn't mean squat. Am I going to buy a device that promises some apps someday in the future or the device that offers 70,000 of them right now?

yeah right, following your logic, people shouldn't buy mac at all, since windows obviously has way more apps, games, hardwares, peripherals, etc. which is fine, since macs has 4% market share anyway.

70,000 apps? who has 1000 on their iPT? do you?

and you dont have to assume zune app store is all air, many reviews indicated its probably true.

Windows market share shows that people don't care about "fabulous UI" - they care about ubiquity.

absurd, so only mac people know what fabulous stuff is? totally unfounded and completely apple jerky statement.

iPod touch is "fat?" I believe it's thinner than the Zune HD, FYI.

a hair thinner, while much wider, what does fat mean to you?

"Unique and engrave arts?" Really? That's a selling point??? Geez, they should have thrown some neon lights in the Zune too to give it that true hardcore gamer vibe.

yeah right, anything apple products don't have is useless and unattractive, that apple fanboys' old tune, and idiotic.

Not only will "Apple defenders" ignore these "features" you tout - the buying public will too. Watch.

Ah, so every potential Zune HD buyer already has a smartphone. Uh huh.

I'll let the sure-to-be-disappointing sales numbers for the Zune HD speak for themselves, just as the disappointing sales numbers for prior Zune models have done (which is, BTW, a fact).

I remember when FM radio and squirting songs was to be the death of the iPod. Ah, nostalgia...

The Zune vs. iPod arguments are funny though. The Microsoft defenders are now arguing the benefits of the snazzy UI on the Zune while the Apple fans argue for the vast ecosystem of the iPod. Talk about complete role reversal. Curious times indeed.

Even more curious is the adamant and vocal pro-Zune brigade on a Mac/Apple-centric forum for a device that 1) competes directly with an Apple product and 2) is not even Mac compatible. Curiouser and curiouser.

making up stuff again, old habit die hard, I guess.

yeah, please do ask the mod why zune thread is showing up here.