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Apple’s “Core Technology Fee” is much more generous than what Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo charge developers to sell physical games for PlayStation/Xbox/Switch. Either this EU ruling should apply to all companies operating walled-gardens or it should get struck down.
Nothing of the sort should be done since access to the market is not fair, and that is what they are trying to accomplish.

Smartphones is the biggest market with iOS and Android runling over it like Sauron and Saruman. Gaming consoles are mere flowers that Samwise Gamgee plants in his garden.
 
Microsoft’s statement pretty much sums up what they (and others like Epic) wanted to get out of it - to make money.

Has nothing to do with consumer choice or benefiting consumers.
 
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Microsoft’s statement pretty much sums up what they (and others like Epic) wanted to get out of it - to make money.

Has nothing to do with consumer choice or benefiting consumers.
Doesn't have to. It's about competition. I am not a fan of MS but I agree that their money is their own.

You think Apple paid MS when people bought stuff in iTunes on Windows, the very platform MS developed for everyone to access?
 
So, no more Xbox Cloud gaming on iPhone's in Europe, is that really a solution ?

I mean, it's removing the Cloud Gaming service on iPhone from 450 million people.
Huh? Browser access to xCloud in iOS will remain like it does today. It's not removing any users as there was never an app to begin with.
 
All you EU acolytes certainly know exactly how to develop, market and sell a phone that the people want, right? So why haven't you done it?
You know, I would have, if I could, in my sparetime.

Answer is: barriers to entry and network effects (nobody will buy it without an established ecosystem of third-party apps). That’s why government prudently regulates the few remaining mobile OS operators that have „won the market“ - rather than waste billions in futile attempts to establish domestic competition.
 
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What they don’t realize is that Apple develops a whole OS per App Store and builds lots of APIs their own apps aren’t even using.

Imagine the screaming if Apple deprecated APIs they don't use. After all, the DMA only requires access to the the gatekeeper uses.

if only apple charged a yearly developer fee of some kind. oh wait....

And one solution is a sliding scale based on d/l numbers and price.

Want what for free? Apple already charges developers for access, even if they don't use the app store.

That is a develop's choice. They can use the tools, as has been pointed out, and avoid Apple's fee to develop an app.
True sideloading would completely remove Apple from the picture.

yeah no. This literally not how business works. You want to sell in the EU? You follow EU laws. It matters not you own the platform, you still have to comply with the law, or be fined on your *worldwide* revenue. Apple will comply.

They already will, some companies don't like they aren't getting 100% free access to Apple's user base.

It might do so whilst screaming and kicking making a fool of itself, but eventually the EU will have what it wants.

Problem is I don't think the EU knows what it really wants. I suspect this will get tied up in courts if teh EU takes action.

The EU influence reaches far beyond its market size (which remains massive). You will have noticed that ALL new iPhones have now usb-c, and it would be foolish to think that this would be the case if it wasn’t because the EU legislated about it.

While it may have speeded it up (even though Apple would only had to introduce it on the iPhone 17), Apple was already moving in that direction; as shown by the iPads.

For a concrete example just look at YouTube Premium IAP. $19/mo with Apple’s tax vs $14/mo on the website.

And you are free to subscribe for $14. Google simply wants to drive you to tehir system and poke at Apple.

Another question is "How many develops charge less on teh Mac if you buy direct vs from the Mac App Store?" In my experience, the answer is almost zero; they chose to convert the "Apple Tax" to a "Developer Tax."

Malicious compliance by Apple: trying to obey the law without actually obeying. Let’s hope the EU strikes down Apple

That’s exactly what malicious compliance is in his case. There’s the exact letter of the law and there’s the intend of the law.

It doe not appear the intent of the DMA was for Apple to be required to provide 100% free access to their App Store.

s I understand it, the EU does not want Apple to be the only gatekeeper of what can be installed on an iOS device. So they want additional stores that are not controlled by Apple. It’s as simple as that.

And Apple said ok, but let’s make it really hard and really expensive. So if the intend is to allow for more (potentially profitable) stores, the EU could argue Apple is putting up roadblocks and will strike it all down, forcing Apple to come up with another plan.

And clearly, the Microsofts, Metas and Epiqs of this world have to say today Apple’s framework is unworkable to make their case.

Which is why I think sideloading, if implemented like it is on the Mac, is what will bolster Apple's argument. Anyone is free to develop an app and have it load, possibly just after a warning it is not from a known developer.

The stores are not controlled by Apple. They only require notarisation of the apps (for security purpose, which explicitly is allowed by the legislation) and the core technology fee. Other than that third party developers are free to do whatever they want.

True sideloading would end that need as well.

You want to argue that notarization costs Apple?

Not the point. Apple is entitled to make a profit from its store and decide what the margin should be. At some point, if the store's ROI is too low, they could simply shut it down. Not saying that would happen, but Apple could exit the app market without exiting the phone market.

I suspect, n the end, the Apple app market will not change much; despite all the whining.

Answer is: barriers to entry and network effects (nobody will buy it without an established ecosystem of third-party apps). That’s why government prudently regulates the few remaining mobile OS operators that have „won“ this game - rather than waste billions in futile attempts to establish competition.

Though in regulated industries such as you describe, the few players assured of a profit based on some criteria, such as invested capital for capital intensive companies such as utilities. Airlines were once assured profits and routes allocated to them.

I doubt EPIC/Spotify et. al. would like ot have to pay a fee every time a user uses their app, no matter where it came from, that was large enough to subsidize all the free and low cost apps.

You already see whining about the CTF, imagine if that was codified and expanded by EU regulation. I doubt they would want to be in the business of ensuring Apple makes a profit.
 
I doubt they would want to be in the business of ensuring Apple makes a profit.
I doubt it too - but they won‘t ever need to.
Apple earns enough money from device sales.

Though in regulated industries such as you describe, the few players assured of a profit based on some criteria, such as invested capital for capital intensive companies such as utilities. Airlines were once assured profits and routes allocated to them.
I don‘t know about airlines.

But operators of telecommunications or payment networks in the EU weren‘t and aren‘t assured profits.
Certainly not by the EU - even when it did regulate their pricing directly through price caps. They merely limited the amount of profit made. The EU hasn‘t had a problem in determining sustainable price levels that still allow for profit before enacting regulation.

Apple’s app business is a business of negligible marginal costs anyway.
 
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Imagine the screaming if Apple deprecated APIs they don't use. After all, the DMA only requires access to the the gatekeeper uses.
APIs that the gatekeeper uses publicly, you might add. Or do you have a list of APIs that Apple uses internally?
That is a develop's choice. They can use the tools, as has been pointed out, and avoid Apple's fee to develop an app.
True sideloading would completely remove Apple from the picture.
Which would be good for competition.
Problem is I don't think the EU knows what it really wants. I suspect this will get tied up in courts if teh EU takes action.
That's your problem. You can ask them like I did. They will even answer a non-EU citizen even though they don't have to.
While it may have speeded it up (even though Apple would only had to introduce it on the iPhone 17), Apple was already moving in that direction; as shown by the iPads.
Doubtful, as they are the MFi mogul and wanted it to continue selling them $$$ at the expense of the user's ability to have a better port.
It doe not appear the intent of the DMA was for Apple to be required to provide 100% free access to their App Store.
And it isn't. It's about the access to the platform.
Which is why I think sideloading, if implemented like it is on the Mac, is what will bolster Apple's argument. Anyone is free to develop an app and have it load, possibly just after a warning it is not from a known developer.
And it works, and Apple advertises it as safe. Not Phil Schiller though when it comes to the EU.
True sideloading would end that need as well.
Indeed it would.
Not the point. Apple is entitled to make a profit from its store and decide what the margin should be. At some point, if the store's ROI is too low, they could simply shut it down. Not saying that would happen, but Apple could exit the app market without exiting the phone market.
From the store, yes. From what they develop simply for the platform, no.
I suspect, n the end, the Apple app market will not change much; despite all the whining.
Well we are all interested to see what happens next.
 
Because they have to pay royalties to Apple in a sense (the Core Technology Fee) even through a Marketplace.|

Not a fan of Microsoft or their CEO, but they're right.
The CTF only applies to apps not on the App Store. And with the recent changes, game streaming apps are allowed to the App Store.
 
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As someone using the cloud service regularly this just pisses me off. There’s nothing stopping them from turning the iOS Gamepass app into a proper xCloud app for Apple TV and iOS outside of pettiness. Or possibly they feel the app development expense isn’t worth it given how few people cloud game. But ignoring that, all of us existing Gamepass users already subscribed externally and are paying Xbox money… they have monetized the app already mich like the Android one!

If a Gamepass app existed for Apple TV I’d probably continue to pay Xbox for that because I’m currently using the cloud service to play games like Persona 3 Reload and Dead Space on my Mac. As it is, when my sub ends I won’t renew because the official web app sucks and I have a steam deck anyway.

Huge missed opportunity here and totally against everything they said the xbox brand stands for. They wouldn’t get “new” customers maybe through this, but they would potentially keep current ones. Sad decision
Having an Xbox xCloud app on ATV would be a game changer for ATV's gaming abilities. However, it would make Apple's own service even less appealing. That being said, unless you could somehow download the games and play natively, playing games via streaming (even with a native app), still has lag issues for FPS/Racing games especially. MS could just push Edge as a web browser access workaround like on iOS but I'm not sure Apple approves web browsers for ATV either. If AirPlay latency improved, you could just cast from Mac/iOS browser but that makes the lag even worse then it already is on game streaming services.
 
Nothing stopping from MS offering the app via side-loading and not having to use Apple's payment system. The new DMA allows this. The only thing MS would have to pay Apple is 50 cents per app download per year (1st one million downloads are no charge).
So you are suggesting MS can cough up $50m per year just for 100m total download, for an app thats offered for free?
Apple's initial stab at compliance is just a silly first offer. In March the EU is supposed to announce their appraisal of what Apple is doing and I expect them to rightly smack down garbage like the "Core Technology Fee" (you and I pay that when we buy our high-profit iPhones). Xbox will be on iOS in the EU soon enough.
CTF is there and in such ridiculous manner because Apple has zero intention to comply. EU can shut it down yes, but Apple will fight back with even more ridiculous charge and cry about it for years until either the world collectively clamp on Apple’s monopolistic behaviours or EU make DMA virtually powerless.
 
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I just don’t get this whole fascination with game pass. Just like Netflix, you are simply tied to a monthly charge to gatekeep content. If you ever drop the service after years, you literally spent a lot for nothing. I wish we would go back to physical media.

I have had game pass and have been disappointed a few times playing a game and it left game pass.
 
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Apple's initial stab at compliance is just a silly first offer. In March the EU is supposed to announce their appraisal of what Apple is doing and I expect them to rightly smack down garbage like the "Core Technology Fee" (you and I pay that when we buy our high-profit iPhones). Xbox will be on iOS in the EU soon enough.
Do we actually have line items where the money from iPhone goes? You forget Apple has in-house SoC design right? Those people get paid how again?
 
I doubt it too - but they won‘t ever need to.
Apple earns enough money from device sales.

In your opinion. Thye have a right t decide what markets they want to be in and be profitable in, independent of device sales.

But operators of telecommunications or payment networks in the EU weren‘t and aren‘t assured profits.
Certainly not by the EU - even when it did regulate their pricing directly through price caps. They merely limited the amount of profit made. The EU hasn‘t had a problem in determining sustainable price levels that still allow for profit before enacting regulation.

Which meant they assured profits via regulation.

Apple’s app business is a business of negligible marginal costs anyway.

Cost has nothing to do with pricing. Should everyone be forced to sell goods at the marginal costs?

APIs that the gatekeeper uses publicly, you might add. Or do you have a list of APIs that Apple uses internally?

Not sure of your point. Mine was Apple could eliminate any APIs currently used by apps that Apple doesn't use but provides and still be within the law.

Which would be good for competition.

I agree.

That's your problem. You can ask them like I did.

So did tehy tell you the intent was for Apple to provide 100% free access to teh App Store except for a develop's fee? And what the developr's fee may be?

They will even answer a non-EU citizen even though they don't have to.

What makes you think I don't have an EU residence?

Doubtful, as they are the MFi mogul and wanted it to continue selling them $$$ at the expense of the user's ability to have a better port.

MFI revenue was probably negligible and many accessories never certified. Apple, IIRC, even said Lightening had a 10 year life cycle; and the EU USB-C rules allow customization beyond basic PD if Apple choses to implement next generation MFi they could within the regulation.

And it isn't. It's about the access to the platform.

Exactly, and Apple is allowed to profit off of access.

And it works, and Apple advertises it as safe. Not Phil Schiller though when it comes to the EU.

Politics and money.

Indeed it would.

From the store, yes. From what they develop simply for the platform, no.

Which is why 3rd party stores with non-notarized apps should be possible under Apple's guidelines. That way developers can decide to pay or not pay Apple.

I doubt many 3rd party stores can succeed however; and developers wanting to have to develop DRM to combat piracy..

Well we are all interested to see what happens next.

Get out the popcorn.
 
Well... PC and smartphones are general computing devices, but xbox is a gaming console specifically designed to be a closed system. You don't even get to obtain Xbox SDK unless approved by Microsoft. That makes all the difference.
And that’s the problem. Xbox isn’t doing well for two generations now. They have no decent games that make it worth it. I wish Sony and Microsoft would allow Windows on their device. I would love a gaming PC on the size (and more importantly heat output) of the game consoles.
 
He’s a big fan of how Windows works … except that’s not even how Xbox works. Game consoles are arguably even more locked down than iPhones. This feels like misdirection.
But I have a choice of where I can buy my Xbox games from, and there's clear evidence of the effects of competition on price. I've got options of buying the physical game online (e.g. Amazon) or on the High Street. I can download it either by directly paying MS or the developer's online store if they have one, or by buying a code from a third party retailer. How is that locked down more than an iPhone in the context of this subject, or am I misunderstanding your point? I get that every game has to be certified by MS to run, but that isn't controlling the market in this sense.
 
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WOW. what a blow. Xbox Cloud on iPad OS mirrored to a big screen TV would be awesome.
TOUCH screen. unlike macOS

Lots of people dont think Xbox hardware will be around in the future.


Yeah things are getting too ridiculous with rumors/fake news/etc.

They are now saying Sony is giving up on PS5. What??? So this week we had Microsoft leaving Xbox market and going third party only, and Sony abandoning the PS5? Okay guys. Let’s stop the drama.

So ridiculous what social media is doing. People going in a corner and crying about Microsoft or Sony abandoning their loyal customers.
 
But I have a choice of where I can buy my Xbox games from, and there's clear evidence of the effects of competition on price. I've got options of buying the physical game online (e.g. Amazon) or on the High Street.

It looks like MS/Sony et.al. are looking to move away fro non-digital distribution. If that happens it'll be interesting to see how the market and regulation evolves.

I can download it either by directly paying MS or the developer's online store if they have one, or by buying a code from a third party retailer. How is that locked down more than an iPhone in the context of this subject, or am I misunderstanding your point? I get that every game has to be certified by MS to run, but that isn't controlling the market in this sense.

However, the may still be collecting a fee on those games, much like Apple wants to do.
 
Nadella is a certified moron who's all about short term profit at the expense of long term stability. Hardly a shock Wall Street loves him.
Short term profit??? The value of Microsoft has increased by TEN TIMES over the TEN YEARS he's been at the helm! It's been hugely profitable since Windows 3 was introduced. MSFT has $150 million in CASH. My $3,450 investment in Microsoft in 1990 is worth $661,825.09 right this moment! It was worth $65,000 in 2014 when Nadella replaced Ballmer. What the Hell is your parameter for "long term stability?"
 
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Which meant they assured profits via regulation.
They assured price ranges, not profits. Tehre's a difference.
Not sure of your point. Mine was Apple could eliminate any APIs currently used by apps that Apple doesn't use but provides and still be within the law.
Apps that Apple uses for themselves, internally, as I said. Apps for employees, managers, engineers, HR, etc.
So did tehy tell you the intent was for Apple to provide 100% free access to teh App Store except for a develop's fee? And what the developr's fee may be?
Don't actually know if you are actually reading what we write or ignoring it on purpose just to tire us off. I already told you it's about the platofrm, not about their fancy store front.
What makes you think I don't have an EU residence?
The point is that you can receive an answer independently from where you are from, even though you may not even be a taxpayer of any of the EU's countries.
MFI revenue was probably negligible and many accessories never certified. Apple, IIRC, even said Lightening had a 10 year life cycle; and the EU USB-C rules allow customization beyond basic PD if Apple choses to implement next generation MFi they could within the regulation.
They may have even said that the Buttlerfly Keyboard would have had a ten-year lifecycle. What does it matter what they say?
Btw, Thunderbolt is their current MFi replacement by replacing the USB standard's capability with a mirrored proprietary protocol.
Exactly, and Apple is allowed to profit off of access.
Wrong. It is required to provide access to the platform free of charge, as worded by the DMA.
Politics and money.
So when Apple says on their website that it's safe right before a customer buys the goods and yields Apple money and Phil Schiller says it's not when it means that money can't be stolen from other companies and customers, it's politics and money from the EU?
Which is why 3rd party stores with non-notarized apps should be possible under Apple's guidelines. That way developers can decide to pay or not pay Apple.
Agreed. Also third-party apps with notarization, as it is the case on the Mac.
I doubt many 3rd party stores can succeed however; and developers wanting to have to develop DRM to combat piracy..
Google could never offer its portfolio of apps under the CTF scheme. I'm sure they would have a good marketplace and they would be able to offer integrated solutions there as well.
Get out the popcorn.
I already have. Cue the Michael Jackson GIF
 
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I'm not all against Apple on this one, but Microsoft's response is EXACTLY how you get change. If people stop developing for iOS due to the costs involved, that will certainly get Apple's attention.

If you don't like the iPhone store... don't develop for it.
This is actually Microsoft saying they will not develop for the convenience of their own customers because they can't make more money off of an iOS app. Meaning you pay for their subscription, and having an app to use it within is not something they want unless they can further make money. So not really about how much it costs those of us developing iOS apps. For me it is actually much less expensive in the long run to develop on iOS than it is most other platforms. Specially when I have to consider safety, protection, and exposure.
 
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