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Originally posted by Shrike_Priest
If Apple sues MS can just say "No more Office for you!".
That would be a disturbing (non-)development, but I'm not sure that it would have the devastating impact today that it would have had in, say, 1998. There are lots of non-MS standards that have already been adopted (e.g., a number of non-Word word processors save by default to .rtf format which is readable by Word).

Also, recall that Adobe didn't stop developing Premier for Mac until Apple released Final Cut Express -- a direct competitor. And even MS didn't stop developing IE for Mac (and Windows too, as I understand it) until Apple released Safari.

It is a threat, but it's more likely to come about because Apple does something like buying Mariner Write and Calc or Nisus Express and puts out its own office apps.
 
Originally posted by 1macker1
Show desktop is in Windows 95, not 3.1. And as fas as me being a troll, I guess I am, a Truth Troll.
Um, no offense, but it doesn't sound like you know what Expose is. 'Show Desktop' simply minimizes all the open applications/windows onto the task bar. Expose allows you to see either all the windows for a given application or all the windows for all the applications at the same time. The two technologies aren't really even close to be similar.
 
Apple's command+tab app switcher is more analogous to Windows alt+tab app switcher. Show desktop in Windows is similar to one part of Exposé, but saying Apple copied it is just...well, not intelligent.
 
show desktop has been a part of Mac OS for ages too, by that logic (ie. hide all). and cmd+alt+clicking on the desktop in OSX.

And the thing about exposé's hide-all-ish thing is that you don't have to bring back the windows manually. You can press F11 or whatever it is, grab a document on the desktop, release F11 and drag it into an open app. something you can't in "show desktop".
 
Re: Try <ALT><TAB>

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Have you tried <ALT><TAB> - just make the icons into thumbnails and you've got something functionally similar to Expose'

OK Windows apologists, expose is completely unique and MS may have similar features but nothing like Expose. The hot corners, hotkeys, is completely unique plus the GUI far exceeds anything MS has come up with.

That said, people on the forum need to get a grip. Just because MS is coming up with a stacks/piles doesn't mean they are copying Apple. Until Apple has an OS with this feature, everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath. Nobody has copied anything yet.

Let's all remember too that fast user switching was blatantly copied from Windows. It has been around for a while on the Windows platform and frankly it's about time Apple got around to integrating it into their OS. Good features get copied, it's a fact of software development. Most of the time Apple comes up with them first but not in the case of fast user switching or the unreleased piles.

Apple now has to come up with new features because MS has copied their current features. I'm not sure how anyone can view this as a negative. Competition spurs innovation and Apple is one of the best innovators out there.
 
Re: Re: Try <ALT><TAB>

Originally posted by greenstork
I'm not sure how anyone can view this as a negative.

Maybe because the title is blatantly biased. I know MacRumors is Mac site, but come'on, a little more objectivity.

I love innovation, whether it comes from Apple or Microsoft.
 
Re: Re: Re: Try <ALT><TAB>

Originally posted by Freg3000
Maybe because the title is blatantly biased. I know MacRumors is Mac site, but come'on, a little more objectivity.

I love innovation, whether it comes from Apple or Microsoft.

Did I just hear "Microsoft" and "innovation" in the same sentence? 😱

P-Worm
 
Originally posted by Shrike_Priest
show desktop has been a part of Mac OS for ages too, by that logic (ie. hide all). and cmd+alt+clicking on the desktop in OSX.

Damn! You tell me this now!?!? I'm just about to get panther and never need this again. Why didn't you tell me earlier!
 
Originally posted by Steradian
Like AppleWorks?

All you have to do is look at their marketing efforts of the past 3 years to realize that Apple is trying to court "switchers." As much as I'd like Appleworks to be a viable alternative, Apple will never accomplish a switcher campaign or grow market share without MS Office, plain and simple.
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Apple's command+tab app switcher is more analogous to Windows alt+tab app switcher. Show desktop in Windows is similar to one part of Exposé, but saying Apple copied it is just...well, not intelligent.

This needs some more description for the Windows trolls.

Command+tab switching is not part of Expose as evidenced by the fact that it has been around on Mac OS X since 10.1? and you can't control it from the Expose preference pane. What has changed in Panther is the fact that it pops open a window of apps to switch through which is similar to Windows (before it would switch in the Dock but this was unpopular). I'll note that the command+tab application switcher on the Mac looks much nicer (takes up full size, icons dynamically sized, translucent layer, etc.). This is a feature that has been copied from Proteron LiteSwitchX more than from Microsoft Windows. Proteron made LiteSwitch from Mac OS 8 as a freeware part of their GoMac which emulated the Windows Start Bar on Mac OS. I should mention that if there was any intellectual property here that was lifted (patents, copyrights and the like) from Microsoft they had the opportunity to sue Proteron as well as FVWM and a whole slew of other Unix window managers a long time ago.

Either Microsoft was being nice and decided that it would be good for their IP to go into the public domain or there is simply no IP in the user interface of Windows 95 that can stand any sort of legal test. Which reason is the real one is open for debate, but from recent quotes from their CEO regarding open source probably exclude the former.

Looks to me that if anybody has cause to bitch at Apple it is Proteron.

Now the big difference between LiteSwitchX and Panther's Command+Tab vs. Microsofts is that the latter switches between windows and the former switches between apps. This is because Windows users expand all windows to take the entire screen and then command-tab between them while Mac users use drag and drop and have a global menubar so don't want fully expanded windows. In other words different application models means different behavior is optimal. This can be annoying when switching because you have to learn to "command-tab" to the application and then "command-`" to the window... something which I see very few Mac users suggesting to recent switchers (a pity).

Clearly this in no way resembles Expose. In fact one of the features is not only impossible but impractical in the Windows world (exposing all windows in a given application). I don't think the windows thumbs are live updated, in fact for the most part they represent proxies of the actual window probably coped from a virtual window manager in Unix). They were just icons until Windows XP.

Getting back on topic. Clearly if Apple owns the patent on Piles than the description of this minor addition to Longhorn sounds like an obvious violation. Microsoft either licensed Piles from Apple or feels they can weather or pay off the lawsuit. Don't count out the former! Piles is old stuff and I seem to remember there was some IP exchange as part of the IE on Mac for Office on Mac and a few million bucks red herring thing from way back. For all we know, Microsoft can cherry pick Piles from the Apple... in fact, a lot of ex-Apple employees now work for Microsoft so it could have been one of them or maybe Microsoftie was reading MacRumors or somesuch and got the idea from there. *shrug* The whole feature must not be that impressive if Apple hasn't introduced it in 3 iterations of Mac OS X.

As for the Expose the desktop. Who is stealing from whom? I can remember option-clicking on the desktop in my Mac way back before Windows 95 and I'm not too sure when command-option-clicking (which hides all open apps) came into existence. I can remember back in the days window shade came out you could command-option or option-click on the shade button to do the Mac equivalent of Show Desktop. There has been an identical Windows-esque Show Desktop freeware for Mac OS X called (surprise!) "Show Desktop" for a while now. The reason nobody knows about it is because Mac users don't want it... they don't operate on windows the the same way Windows users do (see above).

All of this, as mentioned by Rower has nothing to do with Expose. With Expose, you can fly the windows away from the desktop, operate in finder, grab the icon you need, and fly the windows back in to drag it to the appropriate place. See? You leverage drag-and-drop. If the Windows world actually used that feature, they'd understand what Expose is so important to Mac users.

All Expose is trying to offer the features of command-tab switching or virtual desktops (around long before Microsoft even had a "Windows") without the cumbersome burden it places on Mac users workflow-- I mean not losing drag and drop, not losing live update, not requireing a rewrite of the windows attached to apps model, not creating a dicontinuous transition from a beginner to power user without a reams of documentation or classes and certifications, etc.).

Being "totally cool" also coincides with being Mac. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be a genie effect turned on by default when minimizing to the Dock.

And Expose is "totally cool". As one hard-core unix developer called to another after looking at my Powerbook over my shoulder, "Come here you gotta see Apple's answer to Virtual Desktops--this alone is a reason to buy a Mac!"

Take care,

terry
 
Originally posted by tychay
This needs some more description for the Windows trolls.

Command+tab switching is not part of Expose as evidenced by the fact that it has been around on Mac OS X since 10.1?

System 7.5, IIRC.
 
By author?

I'd like to see more on this, it comes across as not just another copy, but another poor copy. Stack documents by author? I've got thousands of docs on my machine, all authored by me. The author isn't my core concern (indeed, I don't include author data in my files), the task is. Apple's piles feature is based on the notion that a mix of different file types (and yes, different authors) may contribute to a particular short-term task, and piles gives an easy way of creating temporary task based organisations. I want piles very much, windows' stacks leave me cold from what I've heard so far.
 
Originally posted by ryan
Um, no offense, but it doesn't sound like you know what Expose is. 'Show Desktop' simply minimizes all the open applications/windows onto the task bar. Expose allows you to see either all the windows for a given application or all the windows for all the applications at the same time. The two technologies aren't really even close to be similar.

A bit off topic, but speaking of this issue, I am somewhat new to OS X and havn't figured out how to get to my desktop quickly when I have loads of stuff open. Any sugg? Expose is awsome and worth the price of the upgrade, but is there anyway to collaps all open apps?
 
Originally posted by xtekdiver
A bit off topic, but speaking of this issue, I am somewhat new to OS X and havn't figured out how to get to my desktop quickly when I have loads of stuff open. Any sugg? Expose is awsome and worth the price of the upgrade, but is there anyway to collaps all open apps?

Click on the desktop and select "Hide Others" from the Finder menu.
 
Originally posted by 1macker1
i didnt say all the functions was there, but the 'clear desktop' has been a part of windows.

I just tried it. I selected "show desktop", then opened mozilla, then selected "show desktop". It minimized my mozilla, and now none of the windows are where I left them.

Show desktop is the equivalent of "minimize all". How does that compare to the expose feature, where I can find an icon then immediately return all the windows to their original position?

You've been saying this for a while. Have you tried expose? If you really think that it's related to the show desktop feature I really doubt it.
 
Originally posted by tychay
This needs some more description for the Windows trolls.

<snip>To save space...</snip>

Take care,

terry
A few things....

All Windows users don't have all apps open and maximized. This is why I am constantly complaining about the lack of screen res for most of Apple's products. I use, and need, more pixels. I can have 8+ windows open with a corner or edge accessable at any given time with 1280*1024 on my Win98 machine at work (we are talking Word/Excel/IE/Explorer/Outlook/Mozilla/putty etc). My iBook does not give me as much flexibility with it's 1024*768 screen. Of course, in 12" format, that is okay with me. Not in 14" however.

I have 10.2.8 on said iBook, and cmd-tab swaps open programs via the dock. If you have 2 windows open for the same screen (buddy list and chat window for example) and I swap back and forth it is to the most recently used open window from that app. As a recent switcher (2 months or so) I found that rather difficult to get used to. Win98 and most any GUI I used with linux does not operate this way.

As for exposé (heh - just figured out option-e), I think it is rather gimicky in it's visual implementation. My *nix zealot buddies would call it a "bloated" feature. Using unnecessarily high amounts of processor time and RAM. It may be nice, but I can't say until I use it. Probably like the genie effect you mentioned, looks cool, but gets turned off on this "slow" iBook 800 G3 because it's a resource intensive gimick.

Fast user switching - about darn time! The rotating cube thing is odd way to re-draw a screen, and I hope it can be turned off. A quick pulse (1/20th of a second gray flash) followed by re-draw to another user would suit me just fine. Along with a 2 second show of the user's id that has been switched to (no idea if that is there now - or something like it).

And please, remember, your computer is just a tool. It is not a lifestyle. It is not a rite of passage.
 
Originally posted by iPC
And please, remember, your computer is just a tool. It is not a lifestyle. It is not a rite of passage.

It is a lifestyle, dammit. I spend the majority of my waking hours by or near my PowerBook. How I use it is a very important part of my life.
 
They finally admitted it!

In reading the propagandized literature that is Microsoft Developer News magazine (http://msdn.microsoft.com/longhorn/.../04/01/DevelopingAppsforLonghorn/default.aspx) I discovered a slip-up in Microsoft's general attitude towards current releases of Windows. After a laundry list of "new" features (new to PC users i guess) i found this, "In addition, Longhorn is the first operating system designed from the ground up with security and trustworthy computing at the core."
Hmmm, does that mean that Microsoft finally admits that their current software has no protection. Well I guess admitting you have a problem is the first step in creating a halfway decent operating system. Oh well PC users, enjoy another three years of security problems and untrustworthy computing. 😀
 
Re: Re: Try <ALT><TAB>

Originally posted by jxyama
ok, this, i didn't know. and this is more similar to expose, i agree and i admit. (why don't they advertize this more? weird...)

still suffers from window's fundamental problem of (usually) equating one window for one app, though. (sorry, had to get the last word in there even in an apologetic post. 😀 )

Some people, myself included think Multiple Document Interface is superior. I suppose it is a matter of taste and work style. Working with multiple applications on the Mac is a nightmare for me. I can drag and drop between two apps with no problem in Windows. Just right click and tile the two open apps and start working. Never was able to do that elegantly on MacOS'. Having a unified menu makes for a sloppy desktop and the "need" for Exposè. It's long overdue IMO. Kudos to Apple for doing it with style and for avoiding tile/cascade/minimize which allowed them to actually market something old and basic as something new and innovative.

Windows has been able to, with two clicks, tile or cascade all open Windows horizontally or vertically since the Taskbar debutted. Not sure when show desktop showed up. Show desktop and minimize all are toggle switches. The last tile or cascade can be undone even after opening additional apps/folders.

Functionally, Exposè is playing catch-up to Windows.

Microsoft doesn't market it because it's "basic" window management.
 
Originally posted by stcanard
I just tried it. I selected "show desktop", then opened mozilla, then selected "show desktop". It minimized my mozilla, and now none of the windows are where I left them.

Show desktop is the equivalent of "minimize all". How does that compare to the expose feature, where I can find an icon then immediately return all the windows to their original position?

You've been saying this for a while. Have you tried expose? If you really think that it's related to the show desktop feature I really doubt it.

Just select "Show Desktop" again and all windows will show the the positions they were in. It's a toggle.

You can open an applicaition and the windows will still return.
 
" A bit off topic, but speaking of this issue, I am somewhat new to OS X and havn't figured out how to get to my desktop quickly when I have loads of stuff open. Any sugg? Expose is awsome and worth the price of the upgrade, but is there anyway to collaps all open apps?"

Like I said, hold cmd+alt and click on the desktop.

or any other app for that matter, and all windows not belonging to that particular app will be hidden.
 
Originally posted by iPC
And please, remember, your computer is just a tool. It is not a lifestyle. It is not a rite of passage.

that's where you're wrong. we're a community. we're all here (most of us) because we use macs. it makes us unique. we stick together. there are a lot of people who show up to openings constantly. people still love their one button mice!
 
Originally posted by Shrike_Priest
The thing is. This isn't like other stuff MS has "stolen". This is something that Apple actually holds a patent on.

it sounds VERY similar to piles. And I'd say MS are in trouble if it's true. Or then again, maybe not. If Apple sues MS can just say "No more Office for you!".

1) OS/2 had similar technology first, though there was no visual indicator of the size of the Pile.

2) Stacks sounds like it is more than a container for documents.

3) There's no such thing as Piles in reality to my knowledge, only a patent of a similar idea of technology IBM actually implemented in OS/2.

Could having knowledge of stacks be a reason Apple was throwing around a patent with no implementation? There should be a law against patent-squatting.
 
Re: They finally admitted it!

Originally posted by Turismo86
In reading the propagandized literature that is Microsoft Developer News magazine (http://msdn.microsoft.com/longhorn/.../04/01/DevelopingAppsforLonghorn/default.aspx) I discovered a slip-up in Microsoft's general attitude towards current releases of Windows. After a laundry list of "new" features (new to PC users i guess) i found this, "In addition, Longhorn is the first operating system designed from the ground up with security and trustworthy computing at the core."
Hmmm, does that mean that Microsoft finally admits that their current software has no protection. Well I guess admitting you have a problem is the first step in creating a halfway decent operating system. Oh well PC users, enjoy another three years of security problems and untrustworthy computing. 😀

What it probably means, and what is probably the only reason we'd have to wait until 2006 for the Longhorn "client" is there's a good change Longhorn will work hand-in-glove with Intel security and encryption built-into it's upcoming chipsets.
 
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