Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Originally posted by iPC
And please, remember, your computer is just a tool. It is not a lifestyle.

i beg to differ. to me, PC is a tool. i use it at work to get some work done. Mac is a lifestyle to me. it has apps and features that have changed my hobbies and the way i spend my "playing" hours. that's why i like Macs - it has vastly expanded and deepened my world of hobbies.

it might be a tool to you but it isn't so for me.
 
Re: Re: Re: Try <ALT><TAB>

Originally posted by MorganX
Some people, myself included think Multiple Document Interface is superior. I suppose it is a matter of taste and work style. Working with multiple applications on the Mac is a nightmare for me. I can drag and drop between two apps with no problem in Windows. Just right click and tile the two open apps and start working. Never was able to do that elegantly on MacOS'. Having a unified menu makes for a sloppy desktop and the "need" for Expos. It's long overdue IMO. Kudos to Apple for doing it with style and for avoiding tile/cascade/minimize which allowed them to actually market something old and basic as something new and innovative.

Windows has been able to, with two clicks, tile or cascade all open Windows horizontally or vertically since the Taskbar debutted. Not sure when show desktop showed up. Show desktop and minimize all are toggle switches. The last tile or cascade can be undone even after opening additional apps/folders.

Functionally, Expos is playing catch-up to Windows.

Microsoft doesn't market it because it's "basic" window management.

again, i beg to differ. you can replace all of your Windows specific words with Mac equivalent ones and you have my opinion. i find Windows MDI to be utterly unusable. i started using Macs at the beginning of the year and noticed the difference right away. i personally find Mac to be far more usable.

M$ implementation of MDI has been inconsistent over the years, esp. in Office.

i'll comment on one of your points. i don't understand how having "unified menu" makes for a sloppy desktop. i assume you are talking about the top of the desktop being reserved for menu items? the fact it's there means two things:

1) you only see menu items that is relevant for the application you are currently using. (do you need to access menu function of programs you are NOT using at the expense of screen real estate that most people covet?)

2) you know exactly where the menu items will show up regardless of whether the application window is minimized, maximized, tiled or otherwise.

but that's just my opinion.

bruce tognazzini, a noted expert in UI, doesn't like MDI.

asktog.com

also, here is one example of a website listing some of the reasons MDI is not a very usable design.

pixelcentric interface hall of shame

while these will not contradict your experience in successfully working under MDI, they certainly don't make me a believer in it.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Try <ALT><TAB>

Originally posted by jxyama
bruce tognazzini, a noted expert in UI, doesn't like MDI.

Well, I don't know him. Not going to read him. If the doesn't like MDI, I would never accept him as a UI expert.

It's one man's opinion. Personal preference and the way and type of work you do. In general "I" give the nod to MDI. But I can see how many would prefer the unified approach, especially single-tasking/focus activity.

Once you start multitasking and get windows and pallettes all over I prefer MDI; click between a floating pallete and hit the desktop by accident. Aaargh. I can't hang. Exposè will definitely be a big boost to working on a Mac and a big help winning over switchers.

FWIW, the only "flawless" UI, is iTunes. Well, there is one UI flaw. The browse icon is the ugliest thing ever. I wonder, did Apple add the iTunes UI or was it in place when they bought it? 😉
 
without making it personal, i'll say one thing. if you are willing to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with you as a "non expert" and not worth a read, then it's clearly not possible to have an intelligent discussion.

i happen to have noticed Mac's lack of MDI and followed up by reading and researching for reasons why i personally found non-MDI to be more usable.

while i respect your opinion, i do not respect or appreciate your rather crude dismissal when i'm trying to present my point of view intelligently with some information.

this is far off topic and i have no motive to convert you to my point of view. so on that note, i'm leaving this thread. good bye.
 
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
You want your piles? I got your piles right here:

capt.la10210271848.microsoft_longhorn_la102.jpg


I loath this man with a passion. The smug little sanctimonious POS.
twak.gif
If he has piles I know an excellent Proctologist!😀
 
Originally posted by 1macker1
i didnt say all the functions was there, but the 'clear desktop' has been a part of windows.

Okay, I'm a fresh switcher and I know exactly what he's talking about. All this Show Desktop button does is minimize every single window that's currently open. That's it, it doesn't do anything else. The fact that it does a similar task as one of Expose's 3 functions doesn't mean diddly squat.

I can see were you're getting at, but you're not getting too far with this pitch. If you haven't seen Expose in action personally for your self I suggest you go to your nearest Apple Store or to a friend that might have a Mac and see it for yourself. It is a mighty impressive tool and definitely has a WOW factor to it.
 
Re: Try <ALT><TAB>

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Have you tried <ALT><TAB> - just make the icons into thumbnails and you've got something functionally similar to Expose'

This works in 10.2 Jaguar also... Don't know if it works in earlier versions... Does the same thing as windoze but switches in the dock..
 
Originally posted by jxyama
i beg to differ. to me, PC is a tool. i use it at work to get some work done. Mac is a lifestyle to me. it has apps and features that have changed my hobbies and the way i spend my "playing" hours. that's why i like Macs - it has vastly expanded and deepened my world of hobbies.

it might be a tool to you but it isn't so for me.
I totally agree with you! Somebody is on your side...
 
Re: Re: Re: Try <ALT><TAB>

Originally posted by MorganX

Functionally, Exposè is playing catch-up to Windows.

Microsoft doesn't market it because it's "basic" window management.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that you've never actually used Expose. on paper, I thought the same thing about it as you. Sounds cool, functional but what is the big deal. When you use it, you'll understand why it is so much better than anything in windows.

This is the same Mac vs Windows argument of the ages. Apple manges to do the subtle things that much simpler and better, and with such grace. Windows, despite its functionality, will never accomplish the same task with the same simplicity and grace.
 
To further add to the discussion about Expose, there are things it does that Windows can't do. Imagine you have a bunch of files on the desktop and an open finder window you want to use.

If you have windows cluttering the desktop, you can press F11, clear the desktop, grab the file you want off the desktop, press F9 and select from all of the open finder windows to drop the file. When you're organizing files, this type of thing is invaluable. Apple has basically eliminated the need to ever move a window to accommodate a drag and drop operation.

Think about this for a second because it's a freaking huge deal.

edit: My guess is that most people downplaying the usefulness of expose have either never used it or have yet to truly appreciate how useful it is.
 
Re: By author?

Originally posted by daijones
I'd like to see more on this, it comes across as not just another copy, but another poor copy. Stack documents by author? I've got thousands of docs on my machine, all authored by me. The author isn't my core concern (indeed, I don't include author data in my files), the task is.

then you would probably want to stack by 'task' or 'project', no? 😉
 
What it probably means, and what is probably the only reason we'd have to wait until 2006 for the Longhorn "client" is there's a good change Longhorn will work hand-in-glove with Intel security and encryption built-into it's upcoming chipsets.
I can't hardly wait...🙄
Why don't we all just slap barcodes to our foreheads and be done with it!
 
The point is not that it's a minor part of expose, the fact is that it was copied. And speaking of copying, the fast user switching is also a copy. Expose is a neat trick that will fade quickly. I use everything from linux red hat, to windows 95,98,2000, and XP, to Mac OS X.

And for those who say Mac OS X is light years ahead of the Window OS, it is exactly what one would expect from a fanatic. Only the truly intelligent people can see that the OS you choose depends on your needs.
 
Is it a "copy" because the are similar? Seeing as how they achieve the effect in completely different ways, I still don't see it...especially when Apple has had similar functionality all through OS X via different means, as others have already pointed out.

Again, if you've used Exposé you know how powerful this feature is as a UI feature. Have you used it?

As for your other remark, no, it's what you'd expect of fans of an OS to say about their system. I'd say there are a lot of people here who have assessed their needs and seen that OS X is what makes the best sense for them. Quit trolling.
 
Found this

From here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/longhorn/productinfo/tour/

following things:

-Open the Start menu and click Music. The music you added to the WinFX default store appears in the music collection.

-Click the column heading Artist and select Stack by artist. The items appear in stacks according to their artist metadata. Double-click a stack to see music by a specific artist.
 
Originally posted by 1macker1
The point is not that it's a minor part of expose, the fact is that it was copied. And speaking of copying, the fast user switching is also a copy. Expose is a neat trick that will fade quickly. I use everything from linux red hat, to windows 95,98,2000, and XP, to Mac OS X.

And for those who say Mac OS X is light years ahead of the Window OS, it is exactly what one would expect from a fanatic. Only the truly intelligent people can see that the OS you choose depends on your needs.

There are intelligent responses, and there are trolls. Go back to /. troll.

How can I justify this comment. Ask yourself one question. If you didn't think Mac OS X is light years ahead of Windows, why are you posting to a rumor site that focuses on the latest Apple innovations?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Try <ALT><TAB>

Originally posted by MorganX
FWIW, the only "flawless" UI, is iTunes. Well, there is one UI flaw. The browse icon is the ugliest thing ever. I wonder, did Apple add the iTunes UI or was it in place when they bought it? 😉

They added it.
 
Re: Re: Try <ALT><TAB>

Originally posted by greenstork
Apple now has to come up with new features because MS has copied their current features. I'm not sure how anyone can view this as a negative. Competition spurs innovation and Apple is one of the best innovators out there.

I think people see it as a negative because Apple is an innovator and Microsoft poaches.

Yes, there are ideas that Apple has appropriated from elsewhere but I find this more excusable in that Apple tends to brings a lot to the party and generally lets everyone take home a souvenir...

For all the wind MS blows about innovation, their primary mode of operation is consolidation.

It's a real burden on a smaller company when all of their R&D efforts feed their competitor. Despite being a closed system, Apple builds a very open environment. MS does just the opposite-- why is it that no one (not even Entourage) can interface with Exchange, for example? No, not the web interface, but native MAPI...
 
Originally posted by tychay
This needs some more description for the Windows trolls.

...

Take care,

terry

Excellent discussion. A lot of this does come down to the difference in how the GUI is used on the two platforms.
 
Originally posted by iPC
A few things....

All Windows users don't have all apps open and maximized. This is why I am constantly complaining about the lack of screen res for most of Apple's products.
...

I have 10.2.8 on said iBook, and cmd-tab swaps open programs via the dock.
...

As for exposé (heh - just figured out option-e), I think it is rather gimicky in it's visual implementation. My *nix zealot buddies would call it a "bloated" feature. Using unnecessarily high amounts of processor time and RAM. It may be nice, but I can't say until I use it. Probably like the genie effect you mentioned, looks cool, but gets turned off on this "slow" iBook 800 G3 because it's a resource intensive gimick.

Fast user switching - about darn time! The rotating cube thing is odd way to re-draw a screen, and I hope it can be turned off. A quick pulse (1/20th of a second gray flash) followed by re-draw to another user would suit me just fine. Along with a 2 second show of the user's id that has been switched to (no idea if that is there now - or something like it).

And please, remember, your computer is just a tool. It is not a lifestyle. It is not a rite of passage.

I don't think anyone will argue with you about needing more pixels... That's one of the reasons I hate menu-per-window in Windows, and one of the reason I hate all the metal trim on the new Finder...

I personally won't disagree about cmd-tab being broken in past releases. This is the first workable cmd-tab for Mac that I've seen.

I do start to disagree about the "bloat" in Exposé and FUS though.

One of the principles of Apple design is to make sure the user follows you through what's happening. You'll notice things never just "snap" into place-- they always slide. When a user lets go of something and it suddenly "snaps" to a different location there's a momentary panic as the user tries to figure out what happened. It breaks the flow.

If you ever used Interface Builder, I noticed that if you just click an item on a palette that is meant to be dragged instead, it jiggles. Cute, right? But it also tells you "I move. Don't click me, move me".

Show Desktop might clear the desktop, but when you click it, there's the "where did everything go" lag while you reorient to your new environment. Did it close all my apps, or just minimize them? If they're minimized, which icon represents the app I'm interested in?

Exposé makes sure the user is following what is going on. You know everything slid off screen when you look at the desktop. You know where your windows are in the stackup when they slide out to tile and then back again. They tile according to their relative sizes, so you don't lose that visual clue as you would with a 'simple' tiling-- everything is as you remember it, albeit a bit smaller.

Same holds for FUS. While that cube is rotating, you're orienting yourself to the new desktop. You know the desktop that is leaving hasn't been closed-- it's being rotated out. You are remembering where things were left on the new one.

The quick strobe and change is faster as far as getting the desktop drawn, but not faster for the user who has just gotten flashed in the face and now has a new view to adjust to and possibly a bunch of questions about what just happened.

Don't confuse speed with productivity-- just because something happens more quickly doesn't mean you can get more done in less time. Often the opposite is true. The brain is well adapted to the physical world where things happen in continuum, not instantaneously.

As far as the use of resources, one of the beauties of Quartz extreme is that most of this makes use of the largely unused graphics processor-- so it is hardly wasting useful resources.

I'm running without QE (iMac 400) and I find it perfectly workable- a momentary blip to 20% cpu usage for Exposé and FUS unfortunately doesn't bother with the cube.

People often refer to Apple's UI style as "eye candy", but there is very little that they do that without purpose. It's probably better phrased "instinct candy", because it's a group of niceties that appeal to your instincts more than to your eyes.
 
One intuitive feature I love is when you type an incorrect password into the Mac OS, the dialog box will actually shake from side to side like it's shaking its head. That's cute! But it's also functional.
 
Re: Re: Re: Try <ALT><TAB>

Originally posted by MorganX
Some people, myself included think Multiple Document Interface is superior. I suppose it is a matter of taste and work style. Working with multiple applications on the Mac is a nightmare for me. I can drag and drop between two apps with no problem in Windows. Just right click and tile the two open apps and start working. Never was able to do that elegantly on MacOS'. Having a unified menu makes for a sloppy desktop and the "need" for Exposè. It's long overdue IMO. Kudos to Apple for doing it with style and for avoiding tile/cascade/minimize which allowed them to actually market something old and basic as something new and innovative.

Windows has been able to, with two clicks, tile or cascade all open Windows horizontally or vertically since the Taskbar debutted. Not sure when show desktop showed up. Show desktop and minimize all are toggle switches. The last tile or cascade can be undone even after opening additional apps/folders.

Functionally, Exposè is playing catch-up to Windows.

Microsoft doesn't market it because it's "basic" window management.

You're right that it's a matter of opinion, and of work style. Here's my opinion based on my work style:

MDI was one of my major pet peeves when I was using Windows... It turns a multi-tasking OS into a single task environment. I've got two applications I'm working with together, but I can only see one at a time because each one has this opaque frame that blocks out the entire desktop, or at the very least wraps borders around borders and eats up my real estate.

Makes me think of when I buy nothing but a bag of chips and the clerk wants to put it in a bag for me to carry out...

Then I've got icons in the frame, and icons on the taskbar, and menus and toolbars attached to everything...

Now that transparency is functional in hardware, a translucent frame might be useable, but I'm glad that MS just ditched the whole MDI scheme with the more recent versions of office instead.

When I tile Windows apps, I find myself with a screen containing nothing but menus and borders with very little workable space.

Show Desktop might be a toggle, but I need to click to toggle which can be a bit of a problem when the mouse is dragging something from one place to the other.

I don't have much truck with cutting and pasting files. Files are too critical to trust to an invisible clipboard. I want to have them in my sight at all times.

I agree that MS doesn't market their scheme because it's "basic" window management... Very basic to the point of crude, in my opinion. If they put a little effort into it they may have been able to market it as "functional" window management.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
One intuitive feature I love is when you type an incorrect password into the Mac OS, the dialog box will actually shake from side to side like it's shaking its head. That's cute! But it's also functional.

Yeah, the etch-a-sketch response... Let's me know that it heard me fine, and just doesn't like my response.

My Sun station just clears the fields and waits for new input like it's hard of hearing... 🙄
 
I found PC Exposé & Safari !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On another forum (newstoday) I found people were trading and sharing some kind of REAL skin for XP which similates OSX, from the Dock, to icons to tool bars - now, even Exposé! and Safari! And the people who have tried it said it's pretty smooth in action, and couldn't tell it's just a skin!!

The guys whom were sharing these info wouldn't share the link of the software but they'll send you via email - due to the reason that Apple will sue who ever wrote the codes!

What do you guys think? The shreen-grabs are too big to attach, so you'll have to see it from the link below...

http://www.tofslie.com/files/expose.jpg

http://www.tofslie.com/files/safari.jpg

Check it!!! before it disappears
 
Originally posted by 1macker1
The point is not that it's a minor part of expose, the fact is that it was copied. And speaking of copying, the fast user switching is also a copy. Expose is a neat trick that will fade quickly. I use everything from linux red hat, to windows 95,98,2000, and XP, to Mac OS X.

And for those who say Mac OS X is light years ahead of the Window OS, it is exactly what one would expect from a fanatic. Only the truly intelligent people can see that the OS you choose depends on your needs.

Actually I'd say that the folks saying Mac OS is light years ahead of Windows are saying it precisely because they chose an OS based on their needs...

I use those OS's plus Solaris, HPUX, VAX and Palm. Oh, and I've written a proprietary GUI for embedded devices... Does that make my opinion more valid? 😉

I know that wasn't cool, just couldn't resist... You called me a fanatic first though... 😛
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.